5th ed CSM notes

[Volandum]

Rhinos always die. But sure, use it as a blocker or cover to block line of sight to important stuff like Obliterators.

[SteelTitan]

I've been thinking, there just isn't many chaos units that have long range shooting, I have tried messing with units to fit shooting, but it doesn't fit well, I was thinking land raiders but they are expensive, two is 440 points, three auto/las preds are 390 and have more fire power, problem is I don't own three, I have 2 but one has fixed sponson heavy bolters, I could switch over a space marine pred, I just dislike the lack of long range shooting chaos has to offer, maybe a havok unit with 4 heavy bolters, it could really chew through infantry, mech I'm not so worried about, its shutting down shooty elements from a distance, maybe a 4 heavy bolter havok unit is the answer.

Long ranged shooting is one of the weaknesses in the current dex. That is basically the most recurrent theme in this thread.

Chaos is still pretty strong when it comes to mid-range shooting, supported by CC and by investing too many points in something they can't do well to start off with (long-ranged shooting), you neglect the thing they are decent at (mid-range shooting and CC).

In this case I'm not talking about not investing in long-ranged shooting at all but trying to fit in two land raiders will severely limit the points you have available.

I'm surprised you say you don't have problems with mech but with infantry. I think Chaos can deal pretty well with infantry / they're decent at AI. It's the AT where problems occur.

Many armies do long-ranged better than us so I can see your unit of long-ranged havocs easily be taken out by the enemy's own units. Is there anything specific that you have problems with when dealing with infantry?

@ Dreadgrass: I think Chosen can still infiltrate if they are mounted in a rhino. I mean, they can outflank with it so shouldnt infiltrate also work?

[Killmaimburn]

@ Dreadgrass: I think Chosen can still infiltrate if they are mounted in a rhino. I mean, they can outflank with it so shouldnt infiltrate also work?

p75 on infiltrate "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate" easiest rules query of the week

I was thinking land raiders but they are expensive, two is 440 points, three auto/las preds are 390 and have more fire power, problem is I don't own three, I have 2 but one has fixed sponson heavy bolters, I could switch over a space marine pred,

Landraiders without EA or possession or machine spirit
*If* you feel adventurous, saw off your sponsons (edit-gun barrels) drill in magnets and magnetise back on the heavy bolters and do the same for some lascannon barrels. Magnets- its the only way (esp if 6th ed does something stupid and 180s everything..which is generally what happens).
Try not to double post to much

IMHO it's a lot of points wrapped up in a tricky maneuver. Anyone else have any advice? on demon summoning of chosen

Not really, outflanking you run the risk of running out of easy sacrifices (you can't just have an army containing only naked sergeants)..infiltrating you want your big demon to get into combat so you can't just hide the wrong side of the board...if you didn't get first turn it would just get swamped (situation dependant this may be a good thing, drawing fire from your advancing troops but if your doing that you want it to be a threat BUT cheap to you too, so 2 melta 1 naked champ, or a bad thing.. his troops move,assault(win) and consolidate closer to your core force if a stronger CC force). I really tried with demons and greater demons when they came out (I tried possessed 5-6 times).. but with the infiltrate and greater demon I never had it working as well as say a demon prince with wings suddenly deepstriking into the middle of their lines (yeah scatter is a pain but its 100 points cheaper. I'm not a keen fan of that either but its another thing to consider when looking at the tactic.(I also liked steel titans way of keeping the pressure on with cheap raptors..I may stick it into my raptor list)

General nods of agreement towards Volandum

[sean_scanlon2000]

where as i do agree that we are very good in Cc and control of the midfield other armies do it well better to be honest. I keep tweaking my world eaters warband trying to find a nice balance. I wouldn't say its an epic failure just yet but more of a work in progress. im currently glaring at the 2 predators i have in my magic closest they were supposed to be for my blood angels but im not even working on that army currently so they may get painted up and assembled for the world eaters Ac/Lc sponsons. and while they are not oblits as im sure ill get jumped on. im just well im not sold on my unit of oblits. i'd almost have to go out and get another unit just to make sure but we shall see. defilers on the other hand im very impressed with. mine have continued to preform in each game that they have played. Either by drawing away a ton of fire or by tearing large chunks out of my opponents before their untimely demise. And yes i understand that by taking 2 preds i will be loosing the tactical flexibility which had been given to me through the oblits being able to engage different targets due to conditions. i honestly need MC hunters as well as AT from my heavies my hordes are wiped out by the units of berserkers and kharn. so anti hordes not so much of a problem. though the flamers are always nice but i can easily swap the bolt pistols on my champs for combi flamers if i wanted to add more templates to the army.

[SteelTitan]

Please use paragraphs in your text. This is a real pain to read.

[GenRuckus]

I have no problem with anti-tank, I could deal with it easily enough, like I said its the model count of enemies I had problems with in this tournament, I have the shooting to pop transports and handle that, but when they are on foot, I didn't have the shooty to kill them before combat. I think a 4 heavy bolter havok unit would have helped me a lot and even been the deciding factor in 2 of the games and an overall victory of that tournament. The other option I'm going to consider is the extra twin linked bolter for my rhinos, 4 twin linkes shots at 12" is pretty powerful, its like a combat squad shooting you every turn.

[Excessus]

Maybe havoc launchers instead of extra bolters? They are str5 and blast instead of str4 and rapid fire...and 48" range!

I use 2 rhinos with havocs on and they are working quite nicely! Even after disembarking from them the rhinos are a threat that needs to be taken care of!

[GenRuckus]

I have been thinking about it, and I could see the tactical use of havoc launchers over the bolters, the vehicle already comes with a bolter, so a 15 point upgrade to a launcher isn't much, and the range is great, I could begin to shoot the enemy turn 1, I have shaved points to give all my rhinos havoc launchers. 50 points a rhino isn't bad.

[GenRuckus]

Alright, forums been quiet for a while, well I re-did my 2k list and wanted to get some discussion going on my list and some tactical advice.

Hq: 2x princes with wings/warptime 310pts

Greater demon:100pts

Elite:dreadnought with multimelta, heavy flamer, extra armor 120

Dreadnought with plasma cannon, heavy flamer, extra armor 125

Troops:8 csm with fist, meltagun rhino, havoc launcher 220pts x4 880pts

Heavy support: tri-las predator 165pts

Vindicator, possession, dirge caster 150pts

Vindicator, possession, dirge caster 150pts

Total:2000pts

[Erwos]

The usual question: how does it handle tough mech IG lists, especially if it gets the second turn? I'm not saying it's unworkable, but I feel like three Vendettas would make a hash out of most of your ranged anti-armor.

[GenRuckus]

I can see what you mean with my anti armor, the only thing I could think of is changing those vindicators for tri-las predators, that gives me three tanks that can shoot lascannons, to get the points for that, two of my csm units would downgrade the fist to power weapons and the metlagun to flamers, that's an even points swap, it would give me some long range firepower.

[Erwos]

It's not your fault; it's just a limitation of the codex. Hell, even triple Oblit squads are seriously vulnerable to Vendettas if they're out of cover.

[GenRuckus]

Well I don't think the answer is oblits, I don't like the unit to be honest, and I think a predator with armor 13 front can survive longer than 2 oblits even if they were in cover, so I may switch one vindicator for another tri-pred so I could have 2 in my list, might be helpful.

[sean_scanlon2000]

I try and field armored units in pairs. I've found that it increases their survivability 2 fold. And with the rest of your army advancing your going to force them to make some pretty hard target priority tests. destroy the 2 princes and he 4 advancing squads or worry about the pair of tanks throwing down alot of firepower each turn. the only thing im not sold on is the tri las preds. id honestly go AC/LC preds to save on point. that should free up some more points if you wished to throw in some more shiny toys

[Erwos]

But some armies can do both. I've never actually seen anyone do a successful Rhino rush on my current mech IG list; anything like that gets destroyed on turn 1 and 2, and then I pulverize the survivors with battlecannons. And that's assuming the worst case scenario where I've lost my Vendettas because the other guy got player turn 1; if I get the first player turn, you won't have a Predator, or very many Rhinos, left on the board unless you're VERY lucky.

I'm just saying, that list looks like suicide against a tuned mech IG list. Maybe it works better in real life, but I wouldn't want to run it against my own IG.

[Xandros]

I reject the utility of predators and rhinos. Land raiders are far better in every respect. It has nearly the firepower of a trilas predator with a heavy bolter in addition, can transport troops, is an assault vehicle and can't be harmed by heavy bolters to the side or guardsmen with frag grenades.

As I concluded in a previous post, rhinos are only useful running small squads, diffusing reliance upon single rhinos. Otherwise land raiders are where it's at.

[kenny3760]

The issue with land raiders is the cost. 2 of them leaves very little points for the rest of your list, 3 just hamstrings it beyond all belief. With the amount of melta kicking about in todays game I can't see the point in taking less than 2 LR's, so your already at almost 500 points before taking anything else.
What are you putting in them to carry out the deathstar assault, 10 berzerkers, another 250 points, or 5 terminators, add a champ an icon and some toys and your nearly at 250 again. So 2 of these units and your at 1000 points, I just don't see the value in them. Fair play if you get them in a successful list, I would be really interested in seeing it.

[Erwos]

I suppose you could run a shooty list like this if you wanted to use LRs for shooting / objective holding:

1x CSM Sorceror w/ doombolt (110)
3x 4 CSMTs w/ 4 combi-meltas, chainfist (495)
3x LRs w/ DP, Havoc Launcher (765)
3x 5 CSMs (225)
3x Predators w/ AC,LCs, Havoc Launcher (435)

AV13/AV14 overload, fair bit of shooting, and some ability to kill hordes with massed Havoc launchers. Only problem is that you can't start with the CSMs in the LRs - better hope your opponent doesn't have a Colossus!

[Bonzai]

I'll admit.... a very sick and demented part of me is tempted to run the following 2k list;

Typhus
4 Terminators w/ 4 Combi-meltas, CF, MoN, Champion, Land Raider
7 Plague Marines w/ 2 melta, AC, PF- in Land Raider
7 Plague Marines w/ 2 melta, AC, PF- in Land Raider
7 Plague Marines w/ 2 melta, AC, PF- in Land Raider
Total: 1993

Yeah, I know it's not competative. But it will be a royal pain in the butt to kill. LOL. Could even run it up to 2,500 points by adding 1 more 5 man terminator squad in land raider.

Still, my opponents expression alone would be worth it.

[Volandum]

Bonzai, does your list really cost that much? You should be able to get 4 LRs at 1.5K, though Codex Marines do this better.

Erwos #998: he can have nine Colossi for all I care, each one he has makes it harder for him to actually kill the LRs, and if you're really worried about your Chaos Marines leave them in reserve.