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Thread: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

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    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    OK so the old thread is long out of date and so big it seems unlikely any new people will be inclined to read it. Heres a new Thread for Deathwing tactics for Mechanised, all infantry, even combined arms (Speaking of which I saw a "Siege" DW list recently with all deepstriking terminators, 2 siege dreadnoughts and 3 Vindicators!)

    Use this thread for our community discussion (And cool dice )

    This tactica is huge! Here are some highlights to help skip some of it!
    (If you want something added as a link here PM me)

    And this post has good summary of the new wound allocation rules and how to optimise with deathwing.
    Starting here is a section on Land Raider Tactics.
    New for me a painting thread!
    Heavy Weapon discussion starts here.
    Trying to start a series of Tacticas based on different opponents:
    The Deathwing Versus Horde Armies.
    The Deathwing Versus MEQs. and more MEQ help here.
    The Deathwing Versus Mechanised and Tank Heavy Armies.
    Epic post by Russell's Teapot.
    Up to date post on opponents by Russell's Teapot

    I'll start with a quick overview of the pure DW forces available and we can go from there.

    HQ

    Belial
    OK, so we know he's not all that, he has no real special rules beyond allowing a Deathwing List and no special weapons or armour... BUT he's very cheap and has the wargear we'd likely give a Master were we to make our own.
    What weapons you chose for him will depend mostly on your list, its usually considered the worst option overall but you can't go far wrong with the SB/PS. The sword is master crafted so makes up for the lowered assault effectivness and he has a storm bolter and in Deathwing every shot counts.


    Chaplains
    Now for Deathwing we can only use the more expensive Interrogator Chaplain. Wargear is limited to a choice of combi weapons only. Being as theres not much choice theres not much to say though if you're getting a chaplian you will likely be getting a Crusader and an assault terminator squad. Since you'll rarely be more than 12" away from the enemy after disembarking theres no reason not to get the combi-weapon, plasma being the best choice. You still get 2 bolter shots but have the option for the plasma when you need it. In general if you aren't buying a Crusader and a load of Lightning Claws then don't get a chaplain, spend the points on a dreadnought instead.

    Librarians
    Had I been writing this just a week ago I'd have said not to ever bother since they are expensive models considering how truely attrocious our psychic powers are.
    However Owen Rees has shown me the light(A little) and I find they do have some uses. Like Chaplians they have only options for a combi weapon; and, like chaplains, I suggest you buy one! For their low cost the 2 plasma shots is well worth it. Now our powers are still very poor (Compare them to the BA ones which are also "5th edition ready" to see how bad they are) but it turns out the librarian has his uses. He does have a Psychic Hood which against some armies (Eldar especially) is invaluable, now our Librarians have only Ld9 so the chances of stopping a power are small but you do get to try every single time so it'll work a few times at least. He also has a Force Weapon which can be useful in some situations. I doubt it will make up for the re-rolls from the Chaplian you could have chosen instead but its a good thing to have around. About our powers then: Hellfire can be used but its random nature means theres never a reason to want to use it. If you happen to be in template range of a lot of enemy troops then of course try it out, its likely better than 2 bolter shots. But you're never going to take any actions to ensure a good hellfire shot because its so unreliable.
    Force Barrier is a slightly better power. At first I dismissed it because it only works once per turn, making it a little pointless since you rarely get hit only once. However you can use it with the new 5th edition wound allocation to take hits from plasma or similar weapons rather than have to rely on a 5+ inulnerable. Used this way the librarian becomes a sort of Pseudo-medic and combined with a terminator apothecary you can be confident of your expensive squad taking few casualties while out in the open. The Force Barrier also works in Assault where the Narthecium does not.

    Elites

    Deathwing Squads
    Just remember they are still available as elites! In case you need more than 6 Squads...


    Dreadnoughts
    Wether you preffer walking gun platforms; running, assaulting, DCCW wielding, combat walkers or some mix dreadnoughts are both cool looking and really useful. Slightly more survivable in 5th ed (Mine seemed to always die to Str 6 weapons) and now able to run they got a small boost. Theres nothing wrong at all with the basic AC/DCCW dread and alot of people use that configuration, the other common ones are the ones in the plastic box Twin Linked Las Cannon and Missile Launcher. Basically the dreadnought can be used as a balancer for the rest of your force, you needed a crusader instead of a regular Land Raider? Then take a TLLC/ML dread to give you more anti tank!
    Monolith? DCCW: No problem!
    Horde armies? Assault cannon and heavy flamer then tie up huge units in assault.
    Basically if you have changable arms or many dreads then buy your dred last and use it to boost any areas your list lacks.
    The other options, besides weapons, for a dread are only extra armour or to make it venerable. Both are good options and are usually determined by the model you have rather than anything else so feel free to use or not to taste.
    One final thing to mention about dreads: BE CAREFUL IF YOU PLAY MECHANISED! With there being very little cover that blocks LoS in 5th ed your dread is vulnerable. If you have a big mix of units on the board its not so bad, but if all you set up is three land raiders and 2 dreadnoughts then you'll get every str 6-7 weapon in the enemy army fireing at your dreads since they cant hurt anything else. That can be a lot of shots and you'll likely at least lose shooting turns if nothing else.

    Mortis Dreadnoughts (IA vol2)
    Our specialty Dark Angel support Dreadnought. Basically if you have a need for a firepower Dreadnought consider the mortis instead of a Missile launcher left arm you can have a different heavy weapon. Everything said about dreadnoughts aplies here too. The 2x TLLC is an awesome tankbuster and well worth the points if you have no land raiders, if you do have them, it becomes less attractive unless you're facing some kind of armoured company list. My favourite are the Heavy Bolters (One game with 2 prometheus land raiders and a 2x TLHB Mortis had me convinced) for 6 heavy bolter shots. Some argue that the basic 4 assault cannon/2 storm bolter is almost as good but they haven't seen it in action! The re-rolls on misses mean you usually get 5 kills of any horde troop. The varient I use most though is the missile launcher version. Yes, it looks like a walking ghetto blaster but 2 Str 8 shots/turn is good anti tank and much cheaper than any other option.

    Siege Dreadnought (IA Apocalypse or Update 2006)
    Its for sieges or cityfight but Inferno Cannon are always cool. I have one and occasionally break it out for facing orks or 'nids. Again not much to say here, chances are if you paid the FW money for one you'll like flamers!


    Troops

    Deathwing Squads
    Our terminators cost more than regular terminators and aren't quite as good but thats never stopped us before!
    The first thing to say about Deathwing squads is that they can mix and match heavy and assault weapons. Note they CAN mix & match you don't have to! In a standard DA force its a huge bonus to have a unit that has a decent shooting ability (Maybe 2SBs and a heavy) while retaining 2 Lightning Claw terminators. In deathwing its usually seen as a better idea to focus your squads roles towards assault or support. This does not make mix & match useless...far from it! But it is worth saying that 1 dedicated shooting squad and 1 dedicated assault squad will work better than 2 mixed units. However your support squads will get into assault and your assault squads will be out of combat at times so some cross over is viable. Often adding a heavy weapon to a Lightning Claw squad is all you need, for reasons of wound allocation (See below) its possibly advantageous to have a single LC terminator in a support squad too.
    For assault squads you want to maximise your Lightning Claws. they are your workhorses and will do the most damage however every squad should have at least 1 Power Fist type weapon, be it a thunder hammer, chain fist or an actual power fist. Since you do need this its been good practice to give an assault squad one heavy weapon and upgrade that heavy weapon to have a chain fist too. I think this is our best offensive combo for close combat terminators. Really you should try to avoid TH&SS. Even with the new wound allocation rules that let you actually use the storm shield, the TH isn't much better than a power fist and a better combo for the squad would be Storm Bolter and Chain Fist.
    Support "Shooty" squads ideally want 4 Storm Bolters and a heavy. However these squads are going to get shot and the best way defensively to arm your squad is to have 5 models with different weapons. This lets you minimise losses by putting all the AP 2 wounds from each squads fireing on to one model. We'll start having a Sgt (SB/PS) and a heavy weapon leaving 3 identical models. The first thing to do is to buy a chain fist for one model. This is good anyway since CFs are excelent and only 5 points this leaves 2 identical models and there are 2 options here: We can buy a second Chain Fist (We could leave 2 power fists but that sets up the chain fist to be cannon fodder for the power fists so 2 CF/1PF is better) or have a lightning claw terminator. He'll likely die first and you'll only miss out on 1 SB shot anyway but some like to maximise all firepower (Every shot does count!) But also you should eventually get into assault (Terminators are far too costly to use as missile troops only!) so maybe that Lightning Claws terminator will be useful afterall? Some do consider this to ba a little "Gamey" since you're basically outfitting your squad to take advantage of a game rule rather than for the weapons themselves... others think its a bit sad to think about it this much and stick with 3 SB/PF terminators.

    Pure Deathwing has no Fast Attack choices.

    Heavy Support

    Land Raiders
    This is where I made my name (Such as it is) with Deathwing, using mechanised assault lists as far back as 3rd edition. There are 5 Land Raider Variants out there (Including the new Redeemer which we likely won't be allowed to use). Land Raiders haven't changed since 3rd edition. They gained PotMS as a small buff but basically they have remained the same... which, in the context of vehicles is frankly excelent! As other vehicles have been nerfed be a series of (Very necessary) rules changes Land Raiders seem to always rise above them and stay exactly as they are now. We can still assault from them, troops assaulting land raiders still have to fight vs AV14, our moving and shooting is still excelent (Due to PotMS) and their weapons have never really been diminished.
    In DW you should be transporting terminators. Assault terminators in a land raider will disrupt your opponent like nothing else. Even support squads can benefit from this quick forward deployment.
    Buy extra armour! If you do nothing else in this tactica remember that!

    The standard pattern land raider is often forgotten about in discussions about effectivness and value with its more popular crusader brother and the exotic FW kits. Seen as a jack of all trades, master of none: Does it want to be antiitank pillbox? Troop carrier? Bloke murdering behemoth? LoS blocker? Yes it can do all these but I think its worth remembering the whole quote of that old addage:
    "Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one"
    The Land raider can do any and all of these roles and usually can do them all at once with reasonable efficiency. In deathwing they really shine to deply a unit on turn 2 and after that be available for fire support and other duties while only losing 1 turn of fireing.

    Have no doubt: the Crusader is the best. People have other favourites but thats personal prefference, undoubtedly the crusader land raider is the best we have for on table performance and is always the first one I go for. In mechanised DW one crusader is necessary since our HQs have to go somewhere! The increased capacity of the crusader is very welcome for us. They ideally could be split between 2 squads in 2 crusaders but most players go for 1 crusader with 2 HQs and a squad.
    Unrivalled close support firepower is only the start of the crusaders goodness as the hurricane bolters are defensive it can fire all weapons at 6" move.
    The frag assault launchers are always welcome too, since terminators cannot have grenades of their own this can be a real life saver for lightning claw squads.

    Forge World has given us 2 other land raider variants. One, the helios (IAvol2) cannot carry terminators (Well, I suppose you could put your HQs in there!) and is basically an over priced Whirlwind. Since the WW is indirect ire the idea of having it behind something for protection made it a great choice. Having an AV14 all round Whirlwind with superfluous lascannons is less than optimal to say the least.
    The Prometheus land raider (IAvol2) is however an awesome boon for a deathwing army. Now RAW we can't use them since they can only be used as a transport for a command squad (Which Deathwing can't have) but its been clarified by Forge World that Deathwing should be able to use these and they can be heavy support. (If your opponent is a jerk and questions your right to use your 120 model you can print out the Email from the B&C Forum to show him.)
    Though it retains regular Land Raider capacity, the prometheus has 12 twin linked heavy bolter shots. Its a huge ammount of firepower and, unlike the crusader, the prometheus can do this up to 36" away!
    The prometheus also comes with improved comms, letting you re-roll a reserves roll. Useful if you are Deepstriking more than one unit I suppose but slightly under used now we have DWA.
    The prometheus (Or two) have been used in a particular type of mechanised list where for most of the game the terminators never leave the land raiders. After picking off the enemy anti tank with LR Lascannon the three Land Raiders sit back and shoot the oncomming troops with impunity since most armies have few weapons that can kill a land raider its easy to remove those threats. It has to be said this can get really boring quite quickly and its not unreasonable to drop kick someone doing this alot in their face.



    I haven't said everything here but I hope this will give us a foundation for a new thread which is up to date and not 150 pages long!
    This has been a brief overview of available troops, what I'd like to see is more discussion on tactcs to use in game and tips and tricks for playing as well as army list development as we play more and more with 5th edition.
    Last edited by Lion El Jason; 28-02-2012 at 17:07. Reason: Added links

  2. #2
    Chapter Master stormtrooper154's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    I think it is time to start a new one too - especially with 5th now on the shelves. I tried to start a new one but it got shot down early on.

    I really like the idea of the DW. I mainly play 1500pt games and am attending Heat 1 of the GT and was thinking of taking the DW, but in recent games against other tourney lists they get rinsed and once the heavy weapon is gone they are very weak at range.

    For my 1500pt list I have come up with a few:

    HQ

    Belial Twin lightning claws 130pts

    ELITES

    Dreadnought Assault cannon, CCW, Heavy flamer 130pts

    TROOPS
    Swordwing squad Thunder hammer, Storm shield, Assault cannon, 3x Lightning claws 245pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon, Apothecary 275pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon, Chain fist 250pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    HQ

    Belial Twin lightning claws 130pts

    ELITES

    Dreadnought Assault cannon, Missile Launcher 135pts

    TROOPS

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher, 235pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon, Apothecary, Chain fist 280pts

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Landraider Crusader 250pts

    HQ

    Belial Twin lightning claws 130pts

    ELITES

    Dreadnought Assault cannon 125pts

    TROOPS:

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon 245pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon, Apothecary, Chain fist 280pts

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Landraider Crusader 250pts

    HQ

    Belial Twin lightning claws 130pts

    Interrorgator Chaplain Combi melta 155pts

    TROOPS:

    Swordwing squad Lightning claws, TH/SS, Heavy flamer 220pts

    Swordwing squad Assault cannon, Apothecary 275pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    Swordwing squad Cyclone Missile launcher 235pts

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Landraider Crusader 250pts

    A couple of things you forgot to mention - Deathwing Assault and Deepstriking. I havent found this particularly useful, due to the fact the army is small in nuumbers, a DSing squad can get isolated and then shot to pieces the following turn.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    As far as I'm concerned DWA is only good if you DS a single squad in mechanised Deathwing or if you DS everything and have maybe 6+ squads.

    Its good in double-wing with RW scouts with homers of course.

    DS is still a bad option IMO though less dangerous now we can run to cover and split up a little. DS assault squads is still non-viable.

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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Nice first post LEJ.

    I don't like DWA, but it could be usefull to someone, but i dont like splitting up my army, and deepstriking everything is to risky for my taste.
    unless you have a damocles command rhino

    As we manly play at 1500, a mechanised list will not work. so i have settled on the combined arms approach, with terminators, land raiders and dreadnoughts.

    One thing is that I really like the Librarian,(with combi plasma) he does add some more combat power to my gun line, as i only use shooty terminators, that is not so bad. And he can save a terminator each round that would have most likely have died from an ap2 weapon. the flamer power can be a nice additon, but like LEJ i agree that it is a little unstable to use reliable.

    I do belive that the Deathwing will be able to kick some teeth in 5th, I bet darkseer regret selling his army now
    Last edited by KaldCB; 20-07-2008 at 16:32.

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    Veteran Sergeant GuyLeDouche's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Great job, Lion. Can you explain a little more why extra armor on a LR is a must have when they have PotMS?

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    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    2 main reasons for the extra armour: First the "New" PotMS (From the new vanilla codex and the Demonhunters FAQ) does not include the movement part, this dosen't affect us yet but we may get FAQd and secondly if you're using them for assault you need more control than 12" straight forwards. You have to be able to put the troops in the right place to assault the unit or units you want and also you may well want to move only 6" to be able to fire a weapon.

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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Good thing my land raiders have forgeworld reinforced armour

    I have a thing for land raiders, and have been drowling on the prometheus land raider for a while, and now that deathwing can use them again (diden't know about the letter before) I problably will get one as a collector.

    But there is one thing im wondering about, I know 4 heavybolter will kill a great deal of stuff, but dont stormbolters do the same job? and are not lascannons something the deathwing need more?

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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    How strong is the pure deathwing list in tournaments? Omg has an awesome track record with his mech dw, as well as lej. I don't do tournaments but I want to for the experience and from what i've read its full of waac players. Do we stand a chance?
    Last edited by Iron Father; 22-07-2008 at 03:28.

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    Chaplain gideon0330's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Has anyone here used a plasma toting Dread? I have one and was wondering how Gets Hot! affects a dread.

    i.e. does it cause a penetrating hit on a roll of a 1 or does it just not shoot.

    can anyone point me to a book that would have an answer if it's not allowed in the forums.

    Thanks
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    Chapter Master stormtrooper154's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by gideon0330 View Post
    Has anyone here used a plasma toting Dread? I have one and was wondering how Gets Hot! affects a dread.

    i.e. does it cause a penetrating hit on a roll of a 1 or does it just not shoot.

    can anyone point me to a book that would have an answer if it's not allowed in the forums.

    Thanks
    On a vehicle, the Plasma cannon does not get hot - on a roll of 1 the shot misses I believe.

    As for DW in tournaments, I was planning on taking mine to the Uk GT but at 1500pts they are not quite competitive enough - 1750 - 2000pts on the otherhand, the mech list is the way to go.

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    Chapter Master Khornies & milk's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by gideon0330 View Post
    Has anyone here used a plasma toting Dread? I have one and was wondering how Gets Hot! affects a dread.

    i.e. does it cause a penetrating hit on a roll of a 1 or does it just not shoot.

    can anyone point me to a book that would have an answer if it's not allowed in the forums.

    Thanks
    I have one as well and I'm going to Drop Pod it in alongside an AssCan/HF Dread....if it does OK then I'll keep using it, and I might use it regardless as it looks damn sweet, which is as good a reason as any.

    stormtrooper 154 pointed out the ruling on it so all the more reason to keep it.
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    Veteran Sergeant GuyLeDouche's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion El Jason View Post
    2 main reasons for the extra armour: First the "New" PotMS (From the new vanilla codex and the Demonhunters FAQ) does not include the movement part, this dosen't affect us yet but we may get FAQd and secondly if you're using them for assault you need more control than 12" straight forwards. You have to be able to put the troops in the right place to assault the unit or units you want and also you may well want to move only 6" to be able to fire a weapon.
    Using my 1750pt list I am currently building towards, I have 2 LRCs, 1 LR and 1 venerated dread, none with extra armor. I only have 3 termie squads, so in order to fit EA on the LRs I would need to switch to 2 LRCs and 2 ven dreads, all with EA. This is a no-brainer? The LR wasn't transporting anything, so I can give it a try.

  13. #13
    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    It is, of course, possible I overestimate the uses of Extra Armour. Anyone else have different ideas?

    I saw a lot of people (Including the WD article) saying plasma cannon would be back in a big way in 5th... personally I see the opposite happening as people realise that blast weapons are quite poor in 5th. they basically miss unless you get a hit... thats like having BS2. I'm sure Orks will do better with their blast weapons but for space marines they are largely a waste. Plasma cannons especially since, while frag missiles and typhoon launchers at least are designed for use against horde armies so will likely hit something, plasma is for use against MEQs so since they rarely come in swarms we're seeing less and less of them.
    Personally I'll probably be using less plasma cannons on dreads for those reasons. I'll be getting more assault cannons, Twin Lascannon and dusting off my Mortis.

    For tournaments: Deathwing are a decently competitive list overall but we do struggle at exactly 1500 with mechanised DW so most (Uk at least) tournaments are difficult. Basically we can't get 3 squads in 3 Land Raiders any more since the removal of 4 man command squads and the fact that our terminators are overpriced. My list currently has 3 squads in 2 Land Raiders and one DWA which leaves enough for a dreadnought and a couple of assault cannon.
    We can but hope our next codex works better for us (Either better priced terminators or cheaper HQs or something...) but since thats probably 10 years away we'll have to make do I may try 1500 with 1 land raider and see how it goes but either way its a harsh points bracket.

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    Chapter Master shartmatau's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Blast weapons are only marginally worse for marines, a very slim margin. You scatter 2d6 minus your balistic skill. So with a 3 inch template you still still hit your target with a scatter of 5 or less. And even misses can hit stuff, so its a nice tradeoff i think. After seeing some obliterators in action with plasma cannons I think they are well worth it. that is if you can spare not having heavier weapons. Cheers.
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Thanks for the info Lion, I've been playing DW for awhile with mainly 7+ term squads 2 scouts squads/w homers and 2 tank buster Dreds. Ironically half the missions played involve no infiltrate which kind of screwed me over with the whole tactic of the army...=p

  16. #16
    Chapter Master Russell's teapot's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperors Tears View Post
    Thanks for the info Lion, I've been playing DW for awhile with mainly 7+ term squads 2 scouts squads/w homers and 2 tank buster Dreds. Ironically half the missions played involve no infiltrate which kind of screwed me over with the whole tactic of the army...=p
    (My emphasis)

    Not strictly a DeathWing army - but you are getting there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion El Jason View Post
    It is, of course, possible I overestimate the uses of Extra Armour. Anyone else have different ideas?
    I never take it. We have a good, working PotMS at the moment & my points don't allow it. If we were to get a more shoddy version of PotMS, I might consider EA on my LRC, but I doubt I'd add it to my LR. In fact since 5th came out, both my raiders have been used much more defensively than previously (I think that's because they can see everything now, so I may as well dakka the snot out of things).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion El Jason View Post
    For tournaments: Deathwing are a decently competitive list overall but we do struggle at exactly 1500 with mechanised DW so most (Uk at least) tournaments are difficult. Basically we can't get 3 squads in 3 Land Raiders any more since the removal of 4 man command squads and the fact that our terminators are overpriced. My list currently has 3 squads in 2 Land Raiders and one DWA which leaves enough for a dreadnought and a couple of assault cannon.
    We can but hope our next codex works better for us (Either better priced terminators or cheaper HQs or something...) but since thats probably 10 years away we'll have to make do I may try 1500 with 1 land raider and see how it goes but either way its a harsh points bracket.
    I'm running rather competatively at 1500 - I think that that's more to do with opponents getting to grips with 5th ed & tweaking lists to compensate. I'm currently 6 for no losses at 1500pts (3 wins, 3 draws).

    For those who are interested - my 1500pt list is:

    DeathWing

    HQ: Belail - 130pts
    Belail: pair of lightning claws
    (may as well make the most of his I5)

    HQ: Chaplain - 145pts
    Interrogator chaplain: terminator armour, crozius, stormbolter
    (as per LeL's post 1, a combi weapon is good - but only if you can find the points...)

    Troop1: Terminator squad - 235pts
    Terminator x 4 - Thunder hammer & Storm shield
    Terminator x 1 - Thunder hammer & storm shield & cyclone rocket launcher
    (This squad goes with both ICs in the LRC - it's expensive, but:
    1. you can palm wounds off to both ICs as you wrap wounds - effectively getting 2 appocotharies for the squad every time you get shot
    2. this squad can & will mince anything if it gets the chance (bar multi-power weapon squads) - it's especially effective against MCs, but can take anything on - make sure you get the charge, not your enemy!)


    Troop2: Terminator squad - 245pts
    Terminator x 1 - power weapon & storm bolter
    Terminator x 3 - power fist & storm bolter
    Terminator x 1 - power fist & assault cannon
    (Learn what 24" looks like - make sure you have it & your opponent doesn't. Move backwards - counter assault in numbers)

    Troop3: Terminator squad - 245pts
    Terminator x 1 - pair of lightning claws
    Terminator x 3 - power fist & storm bolter
    Terminator x 1 - power fist & assault cannon
    (As troop 2 or DWA)

    Heavy1: Land Raider - 250pts
    (Troop 2 or 3 goes in here)

    Heavy2: Land Raider Crusader - 250pts
    (Troop 1 & ICs go in here)

    Total points - 1500pts
    Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.

  17. #17

    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion El Jason View Post
    It is, of course, possible I overestimate the uses of Extra Armour. Anyone else have different ideas?

    I saw a lot of people (Including the WD article) saying plasma cannon would be back in a big way in 5th... personally I see the opposite happening as people realise that blast weapons are quite poor in 5th. they basically miss unless you get a hit... thats like having BS2. I'm sure Orks will do better with their blast weapons but for space marines they are largely a waste. Plasma cannons especially since, while frag missiles and typhoon launchers at least are designed for use against horde armies so will likely hit something, plasma is for use against MEQs so since they rarely come in swarms we're seeing less and less of them.
    Personally I'll probably be using less plasma cannons on dreads for those reasons. I'll be getting more assault cannons, Twin Lascannon and dusting off my Mortis.

    For tournaments: Deathwing are a decently competitive list overall but we do struggle at exactly 1500 with mechanised DW so most (Uk at least) tournaments are difficult. Basically we can't get 3 squads in 3 Land Raiders any more since the removal of 4 man command squads and the fact that our terminators are overpriced. My list currently has 3 squads in 2 Land Raiders and one DWA which leaves enough for a dreadnought and a couple of assault cannon.
    We can but hope our next codex works better for us (Either better priced terminators or cheaper HQs or something...) but since thats probably 10 years away we'll have to make do I may try 1500 with 1 land raider and see how it goes but either way its a harsh points bracket.
    I have to admit I don't use Extra Armour, My Land Raiders tend to be Terminator delivery units for the first 2 turns and then shoot stuff. When I'm delivering unit, the Raiders just need to point in the right direction and PotMS will take care of the rest. Both when Shaken and Stunned they can't shoot anyway, so the difference between the two is just the direction I can move in. I'll save my 30-45 points.

    One of my main opponents loves Plasma Cannons, and I've seen many shots with them in 4th and 5th edition. With the scatter rules they're a bit more random but they definitely kill more cos they always hit. I like them, but don't think they're worth it on a Dreadnought. At 125 points for a Dread with Plasma Cannon it's too much. Combat squad a Tactical squad with a Plasma Cannon 90 points for the unit and it's a far better carrier for the weapon.

    The size of the units (physically on the table) is large enough that something will get hit. It's now a 1/6 miss completely (overheat), 2/6 hit exactly as planned and 3/6 have a really good chance to hit somewhere in the unit. From my experience about 3 will get hit on the scatter and I assume more with smaller bases (let's face it, math for this is hard so we're going to have to rely on anecdotal evidence).

    I've said it before, 1500 is the weakest size for mech Deathwing. I use 2 podding Ven Dreads, 2 squads and 2 Raiders. The Ven Dreads are flexible, I might drop in 10 lightning claw Terminators next game. Above 1500 (i.e. 1550 and above) we get 3 Raiders and 3 squads. Hugely powerful until just after 2000 points.
    The NEW Deathwing Mantra:

    CONCENTRATE your fire!
    Assault on YOUR terms!
    BELIEVE in the God-Emperor!

    Deathwing retired until the new Dark Angels codex. Current project is fluffy Night Lords!

  18. #18
    Chapter Master Gondorian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,605

    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    With PotMS, can you still disembark terminators? In a recent apocalypse game I played, one of my allies had a unit of termies stuck in a riader for three turns as they got stunned again and again. The raider later blew up and the termies went on to kick some ass.
    'Repent for tomorrow you die!'

    'What I cannot crush with words I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard.'

  19. #19

    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Yes you can disembark. That and the Assault Ramps are what make Land Raiders almost never useless!
    The NEW Deathwing Mantra:

    CONCENTRATE your fire!
    Assault on YOUR terms!
    BELIEVE in the God-Emperor!

    Deathwing retired until the new Dark Angels codex. Current project is fluffy Night Lords!

  20. #20
    Chapter Master Russell's teapot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    1,523

    Re: Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

    Ok, we discussed armour saves & 'sets' in the old tactica - as this is still relevant I thought I'd bring it over here. I don't claim that this is all my work - rather an amalgamation of all the stuff on it from post 4555 onwards in the old thread...

    What is an armour 'set?

    If a squad is shot then you must allocate wounds per model as equally as possible. If there are more wounds than models in the unit, then you need to wrap the wounds round again and allocate these wounds per model to get a second load of saves. The examples are in the rulebook on page 25.

    So each model (not 'set') takes a wound, then the saving throws are rolled in 'sets'. A 'set' is a model, or group of models which are identical in gaming terms. So for example in a standard DW shooty squad:

    Sargeant: set 1
    Normal: set 2
    Normal: set 2
    Normal: set 2
    Assault cannon: set 3

    Now, if you are shot a lot & need to take 3 saves on set 1 & fail 2 of them, you only lose 1 model, not 2. If you do the same on set 2, you lose 2 models!

    How armour save 'sets' work in practice:

    The example is a squad gets shot at & wounded by 2 plasma gun & 4 bolt gun shots.

    The wounds then get allocated amongst the squad equally with one left over which must be be allocated around again, the allocation examples give an illustration of how this works:

    Sargeant: plasma + plasma
    Normal: bolter
    Normal: bolter
    Normal: bolter
    Assault cannon: bolter

    This works. The sarg takes 2 inv saves. You then roll the 3 armour saves from bolters on the Normal guys 'at once' because they are a 'set', then an armour save for assault cannon. The normal guys taking saves together is important because of the following:

    Sargeant: bolter
    Normal: plasma + plasma
    Normal: bolter
    Normal: bolter
    Assault cannon: bolter

    This DOES NOT WORK - because the Normal guys roll together, if you fail both plasma invulnerable saves, you lose 2 normal guys, not 1 normal guy. Therefore, the most survivable squads will all have different weapon load-outs to dump strategic wounds on as no 'sets' are rolled.

    Do I really need to worry about this?

    Yes & no. It is definately something to remember in-game, but you are generally going to have 3 sets in a DW squad, so it won't matter that much...

    The general concensus is not to build to get sets, but concentrate on getting the maximum killing efficency out of a squad. After all, if the enemy is all dead, they can't shoot you!

    How do I get sets in my squads?

    A set is defined as models with identical in-game effect, so upgrading to a banner-bearer or appocathary immediatly makes them a different set to another terminator with an identical weapon load-out.

    The obvious way of making a model a different set is to give it different weapons. A terminator with an assault cannon has a different in-game effect to one with a storm bolter; a terminator with a chain fist is different to one with a power fist, and they are both different to one with a power weapon.

    It is worth remembering that a sargeant has exactly the same stats as a normal terminator. Therefore if he has twin lightning claws, and so does another terminator, then they have an identical in-game effect. The sargeant therefore does not form another 'set' and will be in the same 'set' as the other terminator.

    Independant Characters and sets

    Its worth noting that Independant Characters within a squad will also affect 'sets' - they each add their own 'set' of 1 model. It is also worth noting that Independant Characters have more than 1 wound each!

    So in my army I run Belail & a chaplain with my assault squad - so I have 7 models - the first 2 (non-instant death) wounds are always put on the Independant Characters (until they get to 1 wound). Therefore you can take 4 wounds on that squad without losing a model. How cool is that?

    Who needs appocotharies?

    If I want to get a 'set' efficient squad how do I do it?

    If you can make all your terminators different, you can choose which terminator has to save against a lascannon every time - so you can pick out which ever one is the least useful at that moment in the game (obviously this will be different every game).

    Shooty squads:
    Well I'd recommend the 'basic' set up (as seen in the example) for a shooty squad, however, you can get 5 sets if you feel the need:

    Sargeant: power weapon & Storm bolter
    Terminator: power fist & Storm bolter
    Terminator: chain fist & storm bolter
    Terminator: lightning claws (or change to power fist & storm bolter with appocatheary/banner)
    Terminator: power fist & assault cannon

    Assaulty squads:
    The below isn't a bad squad for an assaulty squad. But again, I wouldn't get hung up on it.

    Sargeant: power weapon & storm bolter
    Terminator: lightning claws & banner
    Terminator: lightning claws
    Terminator: thunder hammer & storm shield
    Terminator: power fist & heavy flamer

    Hope that helps everyone.
    Last edited by Russell's teapot; 22-07-2008 at 13:28. Reason: added ICs
    Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.

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