Russel's, if I'm correct, you can, but are not forced to use "sets". If you want, you can also run wounds for each and every single model of the unit.
It doesn't take as much time as it sounds, and allow you to maximize the toughness of your guys.
Just my 2 pences.
[QUOTE=Russell's teapot;2800304]Ok, we discussed armour saves & 'sets' in the old tactica - as this is still relevant I thought I'd bring it over here. I don't claim that this is all my work - rather an amalgamation of all the stuff on it from post 4555 onwards in the old thread..
Thanks for the info once again, never really thought about using the 'sets' to save my termi's from getting annilated very easily from ap 2 or 1's.
Also I was thinking for my DW, should I just drop the scouts all together and just give the the first DWA termi's homers so second reinforcements port off of existing squads?
DW Terms can't have teleport homers in the DA Codex. If your using the C:SM then that would be an ok idea and bring you more into a pure DW type army by dropping the scoutsOriginally Posted by Emperors Tears
When all else fails, Leave a good looking corpse
Thats what I figured, the same thing happened when I bought the codex and found that DW terms can't have special skills as well. Although I was relieved that all DW terms did have fearless, which is udderly badass.
Try again... this board is having issues I think.
ET: Fearless is actually a downgrade for us, ATSKNF is better and the runoured Combat Tactics is far superior.
Mugatu: If the models have the same equipment they roll saves together... this can lead to losing more models than necessarry.
Russell's teapot: Excelent summary. though IMO the TH&SS terminator would be better as a SB&CF. TH&SS is quite pointless for us.
One thing to think about, I've been using the Sgt as a separate set even when he has the same weapons. So a Sgt with Lightning Claws is a separate set to a terminator with LCs. I think this is correct since he's listed as a separate stat line and different weapon options (Even if the stats are all the same).
Hmmm, I'm still not convinced by this one - no rulebook on me ATM, but I'm positive the definition is 'same in-game effect'. I can't see that the terminator sargeant & the terminator have different 'in-game effects' (being called sargeant doesn't affect his combat prowess).
I'll look it up later...
EDIT - queried in rules thread: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154054 Add comments there please.
Last edited by Russell's teapot; 22-07-2008 at 17:09. Reason: Thread added
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
While I'm posting, to save on PM replies:
Deathwing Thread Abbreviations.
We use a lot of abbreviations for weapon combos, most are obvious but I'll list them for the less common ones.
SB: Storm Bolter
AC: Assault Cannon
HF: Heavy Flamer
TH: Thunder Hammer
TLC or LC: Lightning Claws
CML: Cyclone Missile Launcher
PS: Power Sword (Alternativly PW: Power Weapon)
PF: Power Fist
CF: Chain Fist
SS: Storm Shield
When describing a terminators armament we usually use a / to separate the two weapons: SB/PF then is a storm bolter and power fist.
I have a question to the mech players out there, there is a 1800 point turnemant comming up, and was wondering if i should try to use a mech army at those point levels?
The one thing i have noticed about 5th, is that it favours agressive players, that cover alot of the board.
Im used to 1500, and on that point level mech don't work for me, so i think im going to use one of these lists.
Balial, twin lightning claws.
terminator squad. shooty, assault cannon, banner, apothecary.
terminator squad, shooty, assault cannon.
terminator squad, shooty, cyclone.
terminator squad, shooty, cyclone.
Dreadnought, venerable, plasma cannon, ccw, heavy flamer.
regular land raider.
regular land raider.
OR.
Balial, lightning claws.
chaplin
terminator squad assault cannon, banner, apothecary.
terminator squad cyclone.
terminator squad cycolne
land raider.
land raider.
land raider crusader.
The first list, looks like my regular list, and list number 2 is a mech version,
the ting is, that list 2 is more agressive, but is short on troops.
while the list 1 is a more defencive list, that can move out and take objectives at the end.
So is mech list the best way at point levels above 1500?
My paint log for 40k.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172144
My Lord of the ring paint log
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203767
But why is the rum gone?
I'd go for the second list over the first, I think for 1800 points I'd try something similar but no CMLs (No real use IMO) if you want a heavy take an assault cannon. Gear the units for assault. 3 scoring units is quite low but thats DW for you! Its easily enough to seal most games, remember you only need 1 model left now to score. I think Mechanised do very well in 1650-2k its a good bracket for us.
In your first list also, you may want a Crusader onstead of a LR since Belial will want to go in there too.
I think the following would be my list (With experimental no extra armour!) but I'm adding points in my head from memory so feel free to correct me.
Belial
Chaplain
Deathwing Squad
2xLC
AC/PF
Std with CF
Medic with LCs
Deathwing Squad
4xLC
AC/CF
Deathwing Squad
4xLC
AC/CF
Land Raider
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
I know the ATSKNF and rumored combat tactics will be better, I'm just saying the rules as they stand now Fearless is an awsome thing to have at the terms disposal.
Also what is the rumor for storm shields in the new dex? Is it a 3+ invulnerable in CC?
Last edited by Emperors Tears; 22-07-2008 at 16:09.
The latest reported by BoLS is 3+ in CC AND shooting! This would make 1 TH/SS unit per squad quite useful for assigning plasma/lascannon wounds. Would be nice if we could have those too...
ET: ATSKNF is better now, before the new codex. The fact that we are fearless rather than not fearless is a bad thing.
3+ inv saves from shooting and Assault will make the TH&SS useful again for us, which is good since I have 20 that I hardly ever use...almost as good as they were back in 2nd ed.
Lion your totally right, I looked into it and I understand what you mean. and 3+ for shooting as well?!?..thats sick. But I'm guessing that if the shield will probably cost an assload of points for that kind of save.
You should absolutely run Mechanised Deathwing at 1850 points. They're in their prime efficiency.
My notes on your list though is that it lacks anti-horde killiness. Drop the Cyclones and add Heavy Flamers (I'd do the same with the Assault Cannon too).
I also prefer Dreadnoughts to Chaplains simply because it's a bit of overkill (particularly with the new combat rules). Any unit that is hit by a Terminator squad and Belial is going to be minced (even dedicated combat units like Genestealers and Harlequins will go down because they'll have been shot by a Heavy Flamer and a Crusaders guns before the charge, right?). Include a Chaplain and the squad needs to charge 2 units at a time to ensure there isn't any wasted kills.
My current favourite Dread combination at the moment is the podding Venerable Dread with AC/HF. Drop the pod on an objective your opponent holds, instantly contested by 2 units and the troops on that objective have to deal with a Dreadnought as well!
Other good combo's are the Las/ML (you can even be able to squeeze 2 of them, 3 Raiders, 3 squads and Belial into 1850 if you use HF's and no banner) and Venerable running CC dreads.
Also, I like Banners! They rock out!
Lastly, if I was to make an 1850 tournament list I'd do something like this.
Belial (LC's) - 130
2x Dread (Las/ML) - 310
3x Squad (HF/PF, TH/SS, 3x LC's) - 660
2x Land Raider - 500
Land Raider Crusader - 250
Total: 1850 on the nose.
That's what I would run, but maybe not the best for you.
Last edited by Odd_Motorbike_Guy; 23-07-2008 at 01:01. Reason: duh... math fail
The NEW Deathwing Mantra:
CONCENTRATE your fire!
Assault on YOUR terms!
BELIEVE in the God-Emperor!
Deathwing retired until the new Dark Angels codex. Current project is fluffy Night Lords!
Played 3 games today, am now 5w 1L. First game was 2500 vs 2500 of guard/BT. Rolled Anihil./DoW. We seem to do well with DoW, havent pin pointed why, but it seemed to work for me. Final result was 6-2(or3) kp.
Second game was 225ish vs Nids. Capture and Control/DoW. This game was close, ended on turn 6 with me consolidatind back into range of my objective, and Belial and his assault squad rolling some stealers protecting his obj. Game ended with me having an LR, LRC, assault squad, Belial, a dread, and a Shooty Squad, he was left with a biovore and a Broodlord and 2 stealers.
Last game was sieze ground and pitched battle, was 2k each side between me and SW, and the previous guard and nid player. List consisted of 3 squads with ACs, apoth., and Belial, with my spare points going to the SW player. I lost 1 termie, guard lost all his guys, and nid lost all but 2 zoats, Space Puppies too heavy casualties as well.
Stealers with flank assault are nasty!!!!!
With so many wins, this early on, im actually starting to get boad of DW
A question to you guys. I finally got my hands on extra terminator squads and thinking of making a small deathwing force. When i read the codex though on Belial, I'm under the impression that you can't split the std. bearer and the apoth to another squad. What i mean is that the std. Bearer and the apoth has to be in the same squad. Is this correct?
Not here to offer a whole lot. I am slowly working my DA force into its ability to run standard DA, Deathwing and Ravenwing as their own stand alone armies. Just wanted to say, glad to see you all moving to a new thread. Giving my greetings to our brothers in the deathwing once more and saying I look forward to using the wisdom held here. Once my own deathwing is nearing completion for proper set ups.
That's correct, the standard and apothecary have to go in the same squad. It would've been nice to have the option to put the apothecary in a shooty squad and the standard in an assault squad, though.
@AngryAngel - It's always good reading what you have to say in the DA tactica, so I'm looking forward to when you get some games in w/ your DW and can provide some input
Although I haven't played DW for very long I'll add my quick analysis of the missions/deployments and how I think DW fair with them (obviously this will also depend on the composition of your list).
General Notes:
Missions - DW start out with an advantage over the majority of armies because the backbone of DW are troops (terminators). This means that most of the time will will have more troops than the enemy, giving an advantage in capturing objectives.
Deployment - DW also have a slight advantage over other armies in general deployment. DWA gives all of the troops in our army the option of deepstriking, so all Termies can arrive on the board roughly where you want later in the game (instead of being restricted by certain deployment types).
Missions:
Annihilation - This is probably the best mission for the Deathwing because DW armies don't give up kill points easily. Your opponent will have to kill every terminator in a squad to earn just one kill point.
Capture and Control - This one is also pretty good to the Deathwing. Terminators can DS into the enemy deployment zone to take their objective. Also, you should be able to get footslogging termies/LR termies across the board by the fifth turn to contest their objective. DW armies are pretty good at holding/contesting objectives because they are very resilient and your opponent has to wipe out every last model near the objective to control it.
Seize Ground - This is probably where the DW perform the worst when you factor in the other missions. DW armies don't have a lot of squads, so it may be tough to take/contest all of the objectives. However, termies can DS onto other objectives and are pretty good at holding onto an objective (as mentioned previously).
Deployment:
Pitched Battle - This is what deployment was like in most 4th edition games. I don't think DW have any serious advantages/disadvantages for this type of deployment. You just have to remember to not leave any squad stranded without support because you have such a long deployment zone.
Spearhead - I don't have much experience playing with DW in this style of deployment so I'll do the best I can. I think DW have a slight advantage in this one purely because of termies being able to deepstrike wherever you need them.
Dawn of War - DW have a huge advantage in this kind of deployment. Your 1 HQ and 2 Troops will almost always have an advantage over your opponents because terminators are such quality troops (5x DW termies > 10x Eldar Guardians). Not only that, DWA terminators give you some flexibility, instead of having all of your reserves move on from the table edge.
If you have any feedback/criticisms of my analysis, don't hesitate to post them.
Last edited by natedogg710; 23-07-2008 at 05:39.
Tactically wise : Fearless is not that bad. Especially on Terminator.
You cannot loose a fight by that many casualties, since your squad are already small. So you'll have a save or two using your 2+ save.
On the other hand ... just watch a guy with a 10 marines squads loosing by 2 and having 2 save using his regular 3+ and you'll see the guy whishing he wasn't fearless.
Better : Watch a guy miss his Cd test (with a -2 it's highly probable) and get killed by the opposing unit.
Fearless is a blessing, well, in my opinion...
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