How about this instead of the IST? This is 2 points more but you get antideepstrike defence too and the same firepower versus tanks.
Inquisitor
2 mystics
2 warriors with meltas
How about this instead of the IST? This is 2 points more but you get antideepstrike defence too and the same firepower versus tanks.
Inquisitor
2 mystics
2 warriors with meltas
My son plays 2 vindicators with his deathwing without any landraiders and does very well. Any thoughts on this?
Yes, it works. They complement the termies well with the 24'' range. If he plays against loads of tanks he may struggle as the raiders give deathwing lascannons and multimeltas but demolisher cannons are nothing to sniff at.
There's a thread around for siege wing somewhere. It sees a lot of play and we get some good reports on here.
I expect as you advance you can move 6" and fire with all the vindis and all the terminators and still have maximum firepower from everything. Since vindis are a lot cheaper than LRs you get a lot more squads so a bucket load of dice every turn in anti infantry as well as a few Str 10 pie plates.
It plays great. I play siegewing and i win about 90% of my games. I run three vindis in my 1850.Originally Posted by aaronaleong
As far as playing against loads of tanks...i have played against guard a few times and have had no trouble. With a chainfist in every squad and 3 strength 10 vindicators i have no trouble popping tanks (i also have 5 assault cannons but have had no luck with them)
Not worth it. The biggest perk of IST is that it gives you a 4th scoring unit in the form of a Land Raider. It's a good scoring unit at that, because as long as you keep away from melta weapons Land Raiders are pretty hard to crack.
Morning all,
I'm entering the UKGT again this year, and after playing around with a load of armies (SM, CSM & IG) I find that I can't get any of them to be as good as my beloved DeathWing!
So with this in mind, and cognisent of what I faced last year I'm looking for some general tips & advice for dealing with certain builds that I haven't faced, but I'm hoping some of you have!
I play a semi-defensive shooting mech army and the list at 1500 points is:
Belail - TLC
Chaplain - terminator armour
DeathWing squad - assault cannon, chainfist (on different models)
DeathWing squad - assault cannon, chainfist (on different models)
DeathWing squad - heavy flamer, chainfist (on different models)
LRC
LRC
The builds I'm looking for information are:
1) IG - AirCav - they seem to out range and out mobility us. I'm assuming most will have 2 vet squads with meltavets inside, meaning that my Raiders will pop, leaving them running away and shooting Lascannons at vulnerable squads. My thoughts are:
If I get first turn - run the Raiders with AssCannon squads inside up each board edge, park in the middle of the short edges & dakka the flyers as they outflank (I'll have both edges covered), however, that seems to rely on the meltavets failing, or my having smoked at the correct time. The heavy flamer squad to be held in reserve & deepstrike at (hopefully) the right time!
If I don't get first turn - reserve everything & try to keep everthing together so when the meltavets arrive, they and their transport get some major payback!
2) IG - SAFH - the levels of s10/AP2 ordnance and tanks (and Marbo!) that these guys can pack is frightening. Other than just gunning for their lines with fingers crossed, is there anything else I should be considering? I assume that DWA'ing an assault cannon squad may be useful (or holding them in reserve for when the amount of AP2 pie plates has been reduced)?
3) Ork - Battlewagon lists I fought a 3 & a 4 battle wagon list in the last GT & lost both games (one was unlucky though...). Any tips would be useful.
Things I'm not too worried about:
Orks - nob bikers - they need to assault to be useful, if they assault me, all my squads have instant death weapons, MAD it may be, but I've got the tanks to ensure I get the charge...
Eldar - seer councils - their councils are fairly useless against us, just kill the troops... Only an Eldrad/Yriel combo really worries me in most Eldar armies
If anyone has any advice against other top-tier armies, I'd appreciate it.
Cheers guys.
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
Space Hulk:
I was looking at the terminators today. The terminators look easy to convert to DW and the poses are well worth the price. There was talk that all the modelled on bases would still fit on a 40mm base but I'll have to check this.
If you have spare arms, they will fit on the space hulk models but most SH terminators have one arm on the same piece as the body so only one replacement is possible.
The chainfist is just as bad as the plastics (I know you don't all hate it but for those of us that do, this is basically a wasted model as the CF is part of the body. I'll probably try convert this one a lot to something more interesting).
Overall, for an army that is based on terminators I consider SH a must buy to get all the cool and different poses that can make the army look different and not all models in the same pose. Also if you need 2squads, it's less than £10 more than 2 boxes and you get a game with it!
RT: I can only offer a bit of advice based on my limited experience with those armies.
Battlewagons aren't so bad, my tactic was to shoot until they get into assault range, then get back into LRs and move 12". I ignore Ork shooting as little they have can hurt raiders and they at least have to be lucky to kill lots of terminators.
Often the ork player will still assault (Or try to assault) and fail to hurt the raiders since they need 6's to hit. Once they are out, they are easy prey for heavy flamers (Even vs mega nobs) and librarians, followed up with LR firepower and an assault.
As I say though, my experience is limited but I do have a 3 wins/3 games success rate vs battlewagon orks.
If you are having ISTs in a land raider think about one of the FW GK land raiders... Psycannon can be good at times
Not a reccomendation, just a thought.
I'm well into finishing up painting of my DW army (will post the pics soon). I've been reading the tactics here and I'm familar with the LR heavy lists. I've looked at the Siegewing list idea and I like that as well. The models I have now are:
5 with CML/SB
5 with LC's
2 with SB/CF
2 with AC/PF
2 with SB/PF
2 with SB/PW
1 with TH/SS
Belial SB/PW/Standard (the rules say any terminator can carry the standard so Belial can correct?)
3 Dreads with all standard weapon options
1 Landraider all weapons detachable but I do not have any upgrade sprues ATM.
I plan to add 5 more DW to my army and I'm open for suggestions on how to equip them. After that however I'm torn between 2 more LR's or 2 Vindicator's? Help! Do you see any glaring weekness in my current army list that I need to shore up?
TYVM
Looks like a good list. If I were you I would not use 2 LRC. I've found the regular Land Raiders much better. They offer a lot of firepower with 2 twin linked lascannons. I would switch 1 LRC to a LR.
I usually take 1 LRC to put Belial + Terminators + sometimes a Chaplain in. I don't know what you were planning to give the unit, but 4 pairs of lightning claws (upgrade 1 with CML if you can spare the points) and a Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Chainfist seems to work the best.
I know points are tight at 1500, but I highly recommend both the Apothecary and the Company Banner (30 and 25 points respectively). The Apothecary saves me at least 5 wounds each battle. Very very worth it. Also the company banner, when put with the unit above, leads to a very killy unit.
The chainfists are nice to have if you have points left over, they're not really that helpful, as it would only help against Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Monoliths. Most players won't let you get that close to them in my experience.
Personally I always buy extra armor. Don't forget that now you don't have it automatically on your LRC, you have to purchase it for 15 pts. If I really don't have the points I would drop it, but I think EA is worth it.
Also I'm not really sold on the Assault Cannons anymore... Heresy I know, but they've lost a lot of their bang since 4th Edition. For 30 points, AND you lose your storm bolter it just seems bad. I usually take Cyclone Missile Launchers, for 20 points, you keep your 2 SB shots, plus you get a missile launcher. Or you can always go lightening claws and CML if you want to add a little punch to the unit.
Another suggestion, now I know a lot of people don't like using Allies in their army, but I've been a 5-man squad of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. I'm just really sold on them, I toss them into my Land Raider, and it gives me a 4th scoring unit, which is very solid riding in a LR. It's just been my experience that 3 Terminator Squads plus ISTs in a LR make for good scoring. Also since they're in a LR, they're really not much of a Kill Point liability. In the event of a wreck, I just hide them in/behind the ruins of the LR, going to ground if need be. A 3+ cover save sees them through a decent amount of shooting before they go down. I throw in 2 Meltas, and at BS 4 they give the army another little bite of anti tank. For 70 points, it's really worth trying. Plus the Kasrkin models are nice.
As far as armies go, I wouldn't worry too much about the Air Cav IG. I would make it priority to kill any Meltagun carrying soldiers. Popping smoke at the right time seems to be a good option. It's really hard to have a plan of attack until you see their army list, the terrain, the mission, ect, ect. I think your best shot at all of those armies is getting enough anti tank into your list and playing smart.
Here's the list I run at 1500, so I guess this is what you say I would use at the UK GT.
Belial, Twin Linked Lightning Claws
130 pts
Chaplain
100 pts
Terminator Squad, Chainfist on Sergeant, 4 Lightning Claws
220 pts
Terminator Squad, CML
235 pts
Terminator Squad, CML
235 pts
5 IST, 2 Meltaguns
70 pts
Land Raider, Storm Bolter
255 pts
Land Raider Crusader, Storm Bolter
255 pts
It's a tight fit, I don't really get everything I want in 1500 with my DW, which is fine, as the US GTs are usually 1850. I also use the Power Armored Chaplain, as you pay an additional 45 points difference. You gain 1 wound and a 2+ save, but I would rather have the extra attack and save 45 points. I'm not a DW purist, so it doesn't make a difference to me.
I would suggest trying a list like mine. If you don't like the IST, use the 70 points to buy an apothecary + extra armor or a company banner.
I know what you mean about the Nob Bikers though. Power fist attacks take them DOWN.
Last edited by Ork; 22-08-2009 at 05:17.
Hello everyone!
I've just recently returned to the hobby (fell off just after 4th edition hit)
Having played Chaos; Khorne, Black Legion, Iron Warriors etc. and Necrons for a few years.
I wanted a change.
It's been many days of a lot of reading up and deciding what army to go with, without regret I ended up with Deathwing
I have yet to play any games in 5th edition, but I have made myself an army. I think it's roughly 1500 points. So far everything is assembled and about half of it is painted, rest is in progress.
Can't wait to try it out
Anyways I kinda came up with the list myself, with little to none experience I would really appreciate some comments, tips or tricks. Anything
Also I'd like to say that I can't change or add anything for a month or two, while I'm open for changes if I did something silly. I'm looking to play this list for a while and gain experience.
Here goes..
Belial
Pair of lighting claws
Chaplain in terminator armour (interrogator?)
5 Terminators
with assault cannon
5 Terminators
with assault cannon
5 Terminators
all with lighting claws
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Should be 1500 after my estimates, but my codex is at my mates and I can't get to it right now. So if anyone care to check that'd be great, cheers
Thanks in advance!
See the discussion above. We pretty much all agreed that LRCs are better than the Lascannon LR. Basically we have plenty of anti-tank with chain fists and the LRCs have multimeltas which will do better than TLLCs against all but monoliths.
Most of this thread is about squad composition so I'll just be brief here.I usually take 1 LRC to put Belial + Terminators + sometimes a Chaplain in. I don't know what you were planning to give the unit, but 4 pairs of lightning claws (upgrade 1 with CML if you can spare the points) and a Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Chainfist seems to work the best.
4x Lightning Claws is good, this is what you need to kill infantry.
CML are a total waste, especially from a Land Raider unit as the only thing they offer is range, I do have a CML model because I wanted the cyclone with LCs because it looks cool. I would not recommend it to anyone trying to make a tuned list! Assault cannon are better vs infantry and vehicles, heavy flamers are probably the best value weapon in the game, especially out of a land raider.
A much better squad set up would be having the Sgt with LCs 3 more LCs and a heavy weapon guy with the chain fist.
Personally I'm liking heavy flamers more and more for the heavy weapon.
Don't give them the choice! Deathwing are one of the fastest, most manoverable armies there is! Terminators in LRs can assault a target 21.5" away! Its not defendable against by most armies(If they put stuff in the way, just tank shock!)The chainfists are nice to have if you have points left over, they're not really that helpful, as it would only help against Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Monoliths. Most players won't let you get that close to them in my experience.
Also, just for clarity, CFs do not work on monoliths
Not any more. Previously I'd agree and always bought EA for all LRs, but tbh now I can't see a use for 15 points. Its far too much. Remember DA LRs have a machine spirit that lets you move while crew stunned/shaken. Positioning the turn before makes it a little pointless having EA.Personally I always buy extra armor. Don't forget that now you don't have it automatically on your LRC, you have to purchase it for 15 pts. If I really don't have the points I would drop it, but I think EA is worth it.
Again, this is a mistake. CMLs really have no place, assault cannons simply do better against both infantry and vehicles. The only advantage they have is range which should never be a factor for a DW army since if you use the range the rest of your squad is wasted.Also I'm not really sold on the Assault Cannons anymore... Heresy I know, but they've lost a lot of their bang since 4th Edition. For 30 points, AND you lose your storm bolter it just seems bad. I usually take Cyclone Missile Launchers, for 20 points, you keep your 2 SB shots, plus you get a missile launcher. Or you can always go lightening claws and CML if you want to add a little punch to the unit.
Right, its a good starter list, I'd use something very similar myself.
Usually, we'd use land raiders only for assault squads but I have used shooting units coming out of them on turn 1 just to get them into a good position.
Specifics then, since you want to play that list I'll try optimise it for you rather than offer massive changes
I suggest you get the heavy flamer from a terminator box and make a HF/Chain Fist terminator for your Lightning Claw squad. A bit of firepower is always nice and the chain fist will be helpful if you get in assault with a dreadnought or wraithlord... otherwise, it will take a few turns but your squad is dead and can't hurt its opponent.
Also, consider a librarian instead of the chaplain. A squad of lightning claws, belial and a chaplain will likely kill anything in front of it.
A squad with a librarian instead will likely do almost as well, enough to beat most opponents, but also has another template weapon and the shield power can be used to protect the squad like a medic.
If you already bought the chaplain this isn't much of a difference but its a nice tweak imo.
Alternatively, consider buying a combi-plasma for the chaplain (Or librarian) it's cheap for the possibility of killing 2 enemy terminators!
I have made a watcher in the dark carrying a combi plasma so I don't have to convert any characters (I actually did the conversions anyway because they also look cool!) there should be a pic attached.
Other than that, have a go. Usually we play with a lot of assault or a lot of shooting. I like the idea of a half and half but I've never gotten around to playing it for a long time.
Hope some of this helps, please come back and let us know how you did...
Forst up, thanks to Lion and Ork (see below) for tips on battlewagon orks, and AirCav any further help is appreciated!
I've changes from 1 of each to 2 LRC. I've previously given the reasons, but basicly they are:
1) Choice/survaivability - I can split my charcters into 2 squads, effecitively giving both the squads at least 3 appothecaries per turn (using wound allocation rules to put the first shot on the character (except ID weapons), the second always goes on poor old sarge, bless him!). This also gives more tactical flexibilty, as I can get 2 I5 characters in different squads rather than just the one - this can be a combat winner.
2) Killing infantry - goes without saying, the LRC is simply awsome at 24", suprisingly, this is exactly the same distance as my troops. A wall of Dakka that big is difficult for anything to get through (Assume both LRCs move 6" & the squads get out of the tanks & assume that the walking squad isn't in range) - I get 2 x twin linked assault cannons, 2 x assault cannons, 2 x multimeltas (or hurricane bolters it depends) at B"2, and 20 x stormbolter shots - that assault squad that strayed a little too far from support is now dead - with orks it is decimating), the LR simply doesn't have the Dakka to be able to do this.
3) Vehicle killing - the assault cannon and MM are better at killing tanks.
4) Synergy - the army works at 24", having one thing worker at a greater range is either: a) denying a squad a transport option, or b) keeping a shooting squad out of range to be near their tank & consequently not being able to support the army.
Anyway, enough waffling on that point.
I'm afraid I like the shooting army more than assault variety, so I'm afraid it stays as is. On another note, the reason I put the chainfist on a non-sargeant, non-heavy weapon man is due to the wound allocation rules - my mad ramblings thereon are linked in the opening post if you would like to know more.
I agree with the apothecary, but I don't have the points, so now I use 2 appotyhecaries in the form of a character you must take, and a character you need to take because the only othef option is a dreadnought & they are terrible. So effectively I get 2 free apothecaries (I'd have to buy the anyway - the third squad just has to be lucky!
The banner would work well in an assaulty army (I assume, I've not used), but is redundant in my army which is basicly a shoot until they get to me, then counter charge.
I disagree, as LeL has already noted most of my points, I'll not elaborate, except to say that the only reliable way of getting to kill an Ironclad or Souldgrinder that has charged you (perish the thought that we'd let that happen!) is with a chainfist.
I loathe extra armour, I get all its benefits for free, why pay more? Again LeL has trumped me!
Missile launchwers are bunk - again see LeL (he's fast that one!).
I have many ISTs, however, I'm not going to use them, for my own tastes.Another suggestion, now I know a lot of people don't like using Allies in their army, but I've been a 5-man squad of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. I'm just really sold on them, I toss them into my Land Raider, and it gives me a 4th scoring unit, which is very solid riding in a LR. It's just been my experience that 3 Terminator Squads plus ISTs in a LR make for good scoring. Also since they're in a LR, they're really not much of a Kill Point liability. In the event of a wreck, I just hide them in/behind the ruins of the LR, going to ground if need be. A 3+ cover save sees them through a decent amount of shooting before they go down. I throw in 2 Meltas, and at BS 4 they give the army another little bite of anti tank. For 70 points, it's really worth trying. Plus the Kasrkin models are nice
Yeah, thats pretty much what I can see happening, I need to get a couple of games in!
Ahh, I am a purist I'm afraid, I couldn't play a deathwing army with a clear concience if I did that - I'm sure I could find a SM army that did the same job better if I were to go non-purist.
Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll stick to what I've got & hope that I'm right!
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
Zeroth - this is ponts on your list - LeL has already spoknen, so I'll notate his responce - it seems the quickest & most helpful way...
Agree with all the above. The heavy flamer is great fun for toasting orks!Right, its a good starter list, I'd use something very similar myself.
Usually, we'd use land raiders only for assault squads but I have used shooting units coming out of them on turn 1 just to get them into a good position.
Specifics then, since you want to play that list I'll try optimise it for you rather than offer massive changes
I suggest you get the heavy flamer from a terminator box and make a HF/Chain Fist terminator for your Lightning Claw squad. A bit of firepower is always nice and the chain fist will be helpful if you get in assault with a dreadnought or wraithlord... otherwise, it will take a few turns but your squad is dead and can't hurt its opponent.
I would disagree I offer an alternative. I would get 2 crusaders, and split the characters between 2 squads. Have a shooty squad with an a/c or h/f with belial & run the chaplain with the assault squad. Gun both crusaders at an enemy squad, unload. That way, both have a strong assault theme if needed (remember if you move the character out of 2" coherency, he can help charge with the assault squad.
The shooty squad can whittle down the enemy squad. If you are confident about wiping out that squad, then assault with the shooty squad & assualt something else with the choppy squad. If you ar not confident, assauklt with the choppy squad. The choppy squad then win & consolidate to either cover, or be covered by the other squad.
I like combi-weapons, if assaulting, I'd go for the combi-melta, that way you can scream up to a transoprt in your land raider, unload - toast the vehicle with the multi-melta, then assault the troops as they get out. If you don't pop the transport with the melta, you can still assault it! The plasma does have good synergies though.
I've tried it, but only with thunder hammers (I jumped on the bandwagon before SMurf got their boost, so I'm claiming the moral high ground!) I didn't find they helped much, but that's not surprising! Eith LCs, it might work! You'll need to be aggressive though, so I think an all assault or all shooty would be better, as specialists are better than generalists.
Hope that helps
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
Thanks Lion for the feedback!
I'll give the Librarian some serious thought, to be honest I don't fancy the Chaplain so much. The army would look better as a whole with a Librarian, for my taste at least.
Any thoughts on the painting scheme? Bone as the rest? Don't really want him to be blue..
Trying to get a game together on Thursday, I'll post about it if it happens
@ Starlight: Looks sweet, can't wait to see pics
Anyhow! Back to painting
I have one librarian painted in bone (Its two-heads-talking from back in the day) but my more recent one is blue. I hated blue librarians and red techmarines when GW first changes the colour schemes for specialists but I got used to it and now I quite like it for a bit of variety.
Thinking about combi-weapons, I think RT is correct a combi-melta is a better choice. Certainly for a librarian who has a template anti-troop weapon already, but for most transports two plasma shots will do as well (Possibly better, 2 damage rolls? I expect it depends on the armour but most transports are low 11-12ish)
RT is also correct about the squad make-up for HQs. If you had 2 crusaders, putting one squad in each with their own HQ works very well. However since Zeroth said he can't add or change anything for a month or so you're stuck with putting both HQs in the one crusader (Unless you want to walk... The librarian with the walking squad is viable especially if you put a medic in there too since it will get all the enemy fire that can't hurt LRs)
I just want to also say I was into TH&SS before the recent vanilla buff. I have about 20 of them going back to 2nd ed and when (If) the dark angels ever get a half decent codex they are going to rock!
Sorry Russel I somehow missed your post.
Ah yea.. I sort of regret the vanilla Land Raider, but my plans for my 1750pts list is.. you guessed it, another Land Raider Crusader. When that time comes I can switch it to 2x LRC for my 1500pts list.
Anyhow, I've doublechecked my points and made another list.
This one I won't be able to field until I get my hands on a librarian though, and again.. gonna take at least a month for my next purchase
Belial
-Lighting Claws
Librarian
-Terminator armour
-Combi-Melta or Plasma <--- Any input? I'm leaning towards combi-melta, it's just situational. When you get in that situation it'll sure as hell be worth it. If you don't, it's "only" one less kill than the plasma. Assuming I hit, wound and there won't be any successful invulnerable saves :P
5 Terminators
-Assault Cannon
5 Terminators
-Assault Cannon
5 Terminators
-4 pairs of lighting claws
-1 with chainfist and heavyflamer
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
My first list was on exactly 1480, leaving me with enough points for a heavy flamer, chainfist and a combi-weapon for my Librarian!
Ah.. love it when pieces fit perfectly
Last edited by Zeroth; 23-08-2009 at 16:18.
It is nice when it works out. It's harder than with most armies for Deathwing as we don't have variable size squads.My first list was on exactly 1480, leaving me with enough points for a heavy flamer, chainfist and a combi-weapon for my Librarian!
Ah.. love it when pieces fit perfectly
Combi-weapons! Brings back memories I remember I wrote a whole Tactica article (It's still around online somewhere) on the subject of combi-weapons and wargear for Sgts and HQs back in 3rd edition.
Basically for a librarian we can ignore the Combi-flamer. If you want a template use the underpowered Hellfire, it'll do ok.
So plasma or melta?
Plasma gets you 2 shots. This is the important thing, you can have 2 goes at enemy terminators or vehicles. For transports, well Rhinos, Chimeras and eldar stuff, I'm pretty sure you'll do better with the plasma shots rather than the melta. Its only for AV13-14 you'll need the melta and those aren't usually transports (Land Raiders are the only real problem).
If you're assaulting then enemy terminators are a dangerous foe, especially cheating ones that strike at initiative, like LC squads (Thankfully rare) or chaos terminators, or with vanilla TH&SS and a couple of plasma shots will likely get rid of one or two of these.
So for what use you'll get out of it the plasma wins every time.
Melta does have the better Strength, and 2D6 AP (And in a LR you can get to close range!) if you ever have issues with Land Raiders this is an option. Enemy assault squads coming out of a land raider are just as deadly as ours... They can wipe out whole squads (Even 2 squads) in a single turn and we can hardly touch them before hand. TBH one melta shot won't bother them too much but it's a whole lot better than any amount of plasma!
My issue with it is that if you're going to try to kill a tank, you'll be assaulting it so the chain fist in the squad will finish it. You only really need the combi weapon if its a transport so you can shoot the transport and assault the cargo.
It's also possible that you need to kill a tank late game and have only the HQ left as a "Just in case measure" the melta wins every time.
Up to you.
That's why I can't recommend making a few watchers in the dark with weapon options so you can chose what you want! It's even better for the librarian as there's a hand option for him to be unarmed.
EDIT: I'll just add that in my last ~15 games with a librarian and combi-plasma I have not fired it.
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