Hey, been following this thread for a while now, gleaming ideas.
I've always been tempted to do a Deathwing army as a side proectt to my Deathguard army.
At the moment i have one terminater, free from the WD a while back. I have magnets so the heavy weapons can be changed around.
What is the best way to start Deathwing? What models should i get first? Is there an easy or standard way of making Belial?
Was thinking of getting 3 shooting squads and 2 assult squads, then get LRC's and chaplains.
Thanks for your time.
Well, I converted my Belial by using greenstuff to give him a robe and a cloak just to let people know which he is, and he really does stand out.
Luke, use the forrrrrrk
A lot of people make their belial using the plastic chaos terminator lord kit. It has great lightning claws and cape.
You can always use the Dark Angel codex to "count as"
Loyalist heavy weapons could be well represented by custom "pus cannons"
LRC can be easily represented by a nicely converted Daemon-Landraider that has spawned "plague mortars" (hurricane bolters) "pus cannon" (assault cannon) and "Plague of Flies" (Frag Launchers for troops charging out) in lieu of tradition chaos raider armament
Beliel = Chaos Deathguard 1st Chapter Captain
Chaplains = Terminator Nurgle Blight Champions
Even better, paint them in their original white and green colours, representing them just as they turned to chaos, and you can even use a paint scheme thats very close to Deathwing!
Damn, if I had the time and $$$, I would get on this myself!
Deathguard are an amazing platform for conversions and unique models...
it would make a wicked modelling project, and mesh nicely with your current army.
and for the fluff nazis:
Death Guard Legion (pre-heresy, loyalists)
-Known for their "toughness" and endurance: often won victories through sheer perseverence.
-Known for their tactical flexibility (no dedicated tactical or assault squads, each individual marine was expected to perform both duties)
-little reliance on exotic and or heavy equipment (tanks): the legion was focussed upon infantry
-legion partially compensated for infantry focus by making the most use of Terminator armor which was used in larger numbers and mixed more freely within the legion than in any other legion.
-preferred weapons (from artwork: multi-melta/plasma rifle/plasma cannon/bolter family
-distrust of psychics
-common use of the number 7 (hint,hint)
Last edited by Sons of Russ; 02-10-2009 at 12:19.
Logan Grimnar's Great Company, For the Wolftime!!!
CONCENTRATE your fire! CRIPPLE your foe's mobility! ASSAULT is ALWAYS on your terms! BELIEVE in the All-Father!
-->Logan Grimnar has shredded: 1x Avatar, 1x Slannesh Prince, 3x Storm Guardians,15x Berserkers,Canis Wolfborn,Lord Dante, a GK Grandmaster, & 9x Sisters of Battle
Ammobunker Plog: "dean's somewhat less rarely updated log" (Deathwing, Cadian and Il-Kaithe)Originally Posted by TheShadowGuard
Warseer Plog:"dean's rarely updated plog"
What's that GW? More Dark Angels?... Well if you insist.... (A 2nd battle company started...) What? Chaos resurgent and in the box too? (Long, long delayed 1ksons started)
Yeah, I hope he comes back... he was a big part of the community. He started the last thread!
Now that is an awsome idea. However i think i will leave that one for another day. Want to do a Deathwing army, as i have been playing chaos for around 6 years. Time for a small change.
When i have the money and time the 'plauge-wing' will have to be built, it would make a great pre-herasy army as well as a current deathguard one.
What is the best build for a Dread in a Drop Pod currently. I have 2 AC/DCCW's atm and was wondering if this is still the most viable fit-out against MEQ'ers.
I'm putting a FW order together and want to include any Dread arms in with it, so thanks for any suggestions....Multi-Meltas might be the go.
Multi-Meltas are great from Drop Pods, since they are so accurate you can put them anywhere you need to get the 2D6 and usually take out a vehicle.
The only other thing I'd suggest is to take the heavy flamer upgrade on all DCCWs.
Up close it makes a huge difference, your only issue is not to kill so many that you can't assault!
Got 2 games in yesterday in preparation for the UKGT. Both games with standard DeathWing force:
Belail - TLC
Chaplain - TDA
DeathWing Squad - 1 x heavy flamer, 1 x chainfist
DeathWing squad - 1 x assault cannon, 1 x chainfist
DeathWing squad - 1 x assault cannon, 1 x chainfist
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Crusader
Game 1: Eldar
Autarch - bike, laser lance, haywire grenades (running alone)
Autarch - melta pistol, haywire grenades - in a falcon with 5 x harlequins
10 x dire avengers, inc exarch with bladestorm - waveserpent
10 x dire avengers, inc exarch with bladestorm - waveserpent
6 x jetbike troopers
5 x fire dragons - falcon
3 x war walkers - each with 2 x 36" range 3 shot guns (shurican cannons?)
Mission - 5 x loot counters
Set-up - quarters
result - draw 1 x counter each (turn 5)
No much to say about this. Opponent won the roll & elected to go second, then seized the initiative. His 2 waveserpents flew down a flank, but 20" away from my chaplian's LRC - his squad assaulted it, but couldn't destroy it, both DA squads then bladestormed the squad (along with being shot by most of the rest of his army) and were taken down to the sergeant & chaplain who then split up & wiped out both squads in combat.
His shooting gradually whittled down the squad with no transport, who finally succumbed on turn 5.
His fire dragons immobilised the Chaiplain's LRC, but were annihilated by the tank in return.
Belail took out the exarch on foot (who jumped out of the transport without the harlies to kill Belial's LRC & failed).
Belial's unit ran to get an objective (which they kept), but the LRC turned round to allow the last member of the footslogging unit to get in & live on an objective, but immobiliased itself ion a hedge (this keeps happening - I need to stop doing it :lol
His bikes seized the objective furthest from the core of my army, with the chaplain on 1 wound & in charge rane on turn 5, but he died to weight of fire, so he held it...
Game 2:Space Marines
Captain on bike - relic blade
Librarian - null zone, avenger
Troop bike squad - full squad 2 x plasma, 1 x multi melta, 1 x power fist - combat squaded so fist goes with capitain, the 2 x plasma & 1 x multi melta stay as a fire base
Tactical squad - 10 man, flamer, combi-flamer, lascannon, rhino - combat squadded so the 2 x flamer go with the librarian in the rhino, the lascannon snipes
Land Speeder squadron - 2 - each with MM & HF
Land Speeder - MM
Attack bikes x 2 - MM x 2
Dreadnought - multi-melta, heavy flamer - drop pod
Predator - autocannon, 2 x lascannon
Mission: kill points
Set-up: Dawn of War
Result: DeathWing 8kp - Space Marines 2kp - turn 6
Bit of a kill fest this one, again the opponent won the roll off & elected to go second. I started with nothing on the board, as did he. I kept the footslogging unit back in reserve for some deepstrike action.
I rolled on 12", smoked both raiders. His speeders & bikes came flying at me, but out of charge range to get their 4+/3+ invulnerables. Dreadnought scattered 8" back & missed with it's MM.
I charged the Dreadnought & DP with Chaplain, destroying both for no loss. The DS squad arrived, on target, but failed to destroy the vindicator. Belail's raider moved forward a bit. A note on the terrain here - in the centre of the table was a ruin, so my raider move either side of it, the thinking here is that the melta that he has needs to blow up the raiders, but as the raiders are either side of a ruin, he can't hit both... The opponent therefore has to split his meltas before seeing what they destroy (stopping the meltas blowing up one in a single lucky shot, the all firing at the other), this proved effective, as both survived, albeit one was immobilized.
He took a few pot shots, trying to take out the raiders with MM, while the terminators went on a massive killing spree, wiping out units in assault left, right & centre.
I didn't kill any speeders (didn't really care, in KP missions I like to keep my terminators alive in combats they can win & let the raiders take their chances (which they did - both survived), his rhino survived, again, I only shot it on turn 6, and the lascannon squad & predator were too far away to get to.
I lost 2 x terminator squads to lascannon/MM fire while the librarian had null-zone active & I couldn't reach cover, but killing his troops (which are rubbish in combat), and the Dread & DP (rediculously easy as it has to drop close & is pants in combat) was the priority.
My opponent was rather unhappy that the amount of Melta he had couldn't kill my Raiders, however, a quick run down:
Started with 7 multi-meltas (I won't count lascannons - they aren't anti-Raider)
I took out 1 speeder MM (on the squadron) on turn 2 (no shots from that (out of range)), the other was free to shoot all game (4 shots (no shot on turn 1 (out of range), or turn 2 (firing at terminators))
I took out the Dreadnought on turn 2 (1 melta shot from that)
I took out the attack bikes on turn 4, but they were running on turn 3 & couldn't shoot the tanks (4 melta shots from that)
I took out the single speeder MM on turn 3 (2 melta shots from that)
The bikes troop choice were running on turn 3 & dead on turn 4 (1 shot)
Total melta shots faced: 12
Mathhammer hits: 8 (12 *2/3)
Mathhammer penetrates: 4.7 (8 x 21/36 - needing 7's)
Mathhammer destroyed: 2 (4 x 3/6 - due to AP1)
So even against an army specifically designed (in my opponent's words) to take out dual raider lists, the likelyhood of them surviving is reasonably high - especially if you can split his fire by playing peek-a-boo around some terrain, meaning that some of his melta will be wasted should he sucseed in killing one of the tanks. Add in smoke & it gets better...
Well, I found it interesting
Can you go into more depth on how you use each army entry? I can't seem to discernate how to use Belial with claws with no dedicated assault terminator squad or the sinergy between shooty squads and LRCs.
How do you usually deploy?
And what is a chaplain with TDA?
Tactical Dreadnought Armour, aka Terminator Armour
1) They both shoot 24": This means that you can keep your entire army together, focus fire, and protect your troops with your tanks, or tanks with your troops (depending on threats) whilst maintaining a 24" threat zone, and nothing gets left behind.
2) Troop movement: There are times when you simply need to get out of a situation & the LRCs allow you to load up an run for the hills should you need to. In addition, for your troops to be effective, they need to be within 24". Again the transport allows you to get to that area when the enemy refuses to come to you.
3) They're rock hard: Sometimes you are facing an army with so much plasma that you get a nose bleed. Got a Land Raider? Roll up, roll up, get inside, tickets are free & provide immunity from most weaponry on the 40k battlefield, invite your friends, there's room for more!
So point 2) Troop movement is probably where you are thinking ah-ha (no, not the band) then why not take a Godhammer (a Land Raider with Lascannons)? Here are the reasons why a Crusader is better than a Godhammer:
1) Killing stuff: The Crusader is simply better. At killing light troops, the tank is a unit murderer, cover or not. Against heavy troops you put out so many shots that some are bound to die, and your troops can finish them off. Against tanks the assault cannon and MM are far more effective (at the tank & troops shooting range of 24") than the Godhammer, at 12" it is even better. At 48" the Godhammer is obviously better at killing anything, but think abou this:
a) if your land raider is 48" from the enemy & your troops are 24" away from the enemy, neither is supported adequately & both will die
b) if your land raider is 48" away with your troops, your troops are doing nothing and you kill less
c) 24" is a massive range in 40k. With 2 land raiders, you can drive into the middle of the board & dominate most of it, only the corners and extreme edges are safe, but you can move 6" and still shoot to cover most of this area.
2) Moving stuff: The extra capacity of the LRC is fantastic. At 1500 points, I'd always recommend 2 LRs & 2 IC (mostly because I think dreadnoughts are bunk). So if you need to move your army & you have 2 ICs - how do they get out of there if they can't get in a tank? The LRCs provide flexibility in that a squad can attach 1 or 2 ICs and still be able to load up & go where they like. This is useful where an IC has had a squad shot out from around them & needs to join another squad.
3) Assaulting: The LRC is an assault tank, meaning it is the only way we can get I5 from our ICs whilst charging into cover. In an assaulty list this is almost mandatory, as without this ability, TLC terminators turn into puny powerfists.
So there you have it. The LRC is the ultimate force multiplier for DeathWing (I need to go back and count how many times I've said that in this thread ). It makes troops better by making them more mobile, more of a threat at a greater range, and better at defending themselves.
Now your next point. Why take Belail with TLCs?
Well, it's obvious to say that the assault phase is where most battles are won or lost. Why? Because there are more assault phases than shooting phases. In 6 turns there are 6 shooting phases, for which the DW are likely to be out of range, or not still effective for 1-2. In assault there will be 6 phases (assuming assaults start on turn 3), with power weapons & powerfists, these are far more deadly than shooting, and there is more of it.
Taking one of 2 I5 characters with as many assault attacks as possible seems a no-brainer to me. The THSS combo is bunk and not even worth considering on an I5 character. Against the power weapon you'll lose 4 bolt shots in the game, but gain about 5 or 6 power weapon attacks, before your opponent strikes (usually), hitting on 3s (normally) and then re-rolling to wound them. To me, that's a no-brainer.
So why don't you take a full-on assaulty force if it is so much better? Because I like to ensure that the enemy is as weak as possible when they get to my lines (or visa-versa). In addition, there are many armies out there that simply outclass terminators in assault, with shooting, I have the option of getting into assault, with an assaulty army, there is no option. Normal terminators are easitly good enough to hold their own in an assault, provided you've given the enemy a bloody nose on the way in.
Finally how do you use assaulty ICs in a shooty list?
The Chaplain and Belail are used primarily as bullet magnets. An apothecary for every unit that shoots their squad (go to the first post & click the link to the wound allocation post if you need more details). Their other uses are very different.
Belail: He can get out of a tank without his squad, or from a different door so that he can engage a totally different unit that otherwise could not be assaulted. Think about that.
Imagine 3 space marine squads placed in a triangle 8" around a LRC - one unit behind, and one at each front corner.
Let's assume that they've taken a bit of damage, and you think that you can assault them. If you have a single unit in the tank, you can't assault all 3. With Belail you can. The unit get out the front door and assault both the units ahead, and Belail gets out of a side door (2" away to break coherency) and assaults the unit at the back. You weren't expecting that Mr Space Marine player, were you?!?
Also, as in the eldar game I recently posted, I had Belail & his squad sat in a tank where only 1 gun was a threat, an Autarch with a melta pistol. The autarch had no power weapon. Silly autarch. Belail got out on his own and punched the pointy eared freak to death. Following that he would have got back into his tank, safe and sound (but the game changed a bit and it wasn't an option I could call on).
Chaplain: Not so good in assault by himself, but what he does is ensure that any unit you assault is dead, dead, dead when you attach him to a squad (if Belail goes too there even more fits & giggles). Drop podding Iron clads - dead. Skimmers - dead. Avatars of war - dead. Carnifexes - dead.
You can use this unit to assault things that will kill 2-3 terminators & still have your full attacks from the squad as the re-roll to hit makes up the difference. That's why he is there.
You need to remember that there is no such thing as a shooty DeathWing army. It is a counter assault, pre-emptive assault, murdering machine that shoots stuff to soften it up for assault in many instances, but can function in some circumstances as a full-on mobile shooting force. Should the enemy & game dictate, it is also an objective denial army (especially in KP missions, but the others too).
I hope that helps, I'm spent!
Thats a very interesting read Russell's Teapot.
A quick question.
Can the Hurrican bolters on the LRC rapid fire if the enemy is within 12inches?
Post of the year Russell. That one is going straight to the signature block. Best summary ever.