Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

[Gen.Steiner]

3x Land Raiders (750pts)
3x Terminator Squads (750pts - 1,500)
Belial + a couple of upgrades = 1,850

I would go for a Crusader, and two Godhammers.

This presents him with a wall of AV14. Better yet, only his Vendettas, Banewolf and Manticores can harm it over 12".

The max range of a Lascannon is just 48" IIRC, however, so you'll need to deploy in cover, drive at top speed and pop smoke, and then fire at his Vendettas, his Banewolf and his Manticores in that order (IMO).

Once they're knocked out - and you can consider adding in some Cyclones or A/Cannons to help knock his tanks out - your Terminators can squish his Veterans and then hop back into the bunker-tanks that nothing he has can touch.

I think that'll work.

[Grunge]

Well I was just preparing to go to a future tournment over here and was thinking it was a really good opportunity to flash my newly painted/converted Deathwing Army of my heart when they released the rules pack and no SC are allowed.

No Belial means no Deathwing. So the thought came to my mind:

All you veteran Deathwing players, what do you take when you can't have Belial? Regular Dark Angels with DW favour? A completely different army? I for one will play Fantasy, wich has significantly better rules pack.

How can we play Deathwing flavoured DA with no Belial and still do good at tournment play?

[SabrX]

It's not Deathwing without Belial. I suppose you could play using normal marines or Space Wolves with compulsory troop choices and stock up on Terminators.

[grave digger]

Well I was just preparing to go to a future tournment over here and was thinking it was a really good opportunity to flash my newly painted/converted Deathwing Army of my heart when they released the rules pack and no SC are allowed.

No Belial means no Deathwing. So the thought came to my mind:

All you veteran Deathwing players, what do you take when you can't have Belial? Regular Dark Angels with DW favour? A completely different army? I for one will play Fantasy, wich has significantly better rules pack.

How can we play Deathwing flavoured DA with no Belial and still do good at tournment play?

What does "SC" stand for? I get the gist of your problem but I'm not familiar with the term.

Me? I'd play another army or not go at all. I would suggest you contact the tournament organizer and see if this means you can not take Belial. It seems a little odd that they would discriminate vs. an army that has been around longer than Necrons or Dark Eldar

Diggs

[SabrX]

What does "SC" stand for? I get the gist of your problem but I'm not familiar with the term.

Acronym for Special Character I think.

It's stupid to ban Special Characters. Makes everything bland.

[grave digger]

Ah, of course. Why did I not think of that. Thanks.

The problem is that these "Special Characters" are no longer special. The best way I've heard them described is that they are an "Unlock" for your army and I think that fits best. To ban them is to remove a wide variety of army builds.

Le sigh,

Diggs

[Codsticker]

We still ok discussing the current topic as a tactical situation in here though Codsticker?

Yes, I believe that is alright.

[Gen.Steiner]

If I can't take Deathwing I take Guard. Or Marines. Or the Fallen Men. Or...

[m_r_parker]

If I can't take Belial, then it's an Int. Chaplain and then try to squeeze in the mandatory Troops choices. It's not a huge deal - to be honest I'd rather have the Int. Chaplain over Belial any day, provided I could still get Termies as Troops.

I would generally go with a pair of 5-main Tactical squads, with minimal upgrades. Keep them as cheap as possible without eating too much into the rest of the points for the actual Deathwing element of the list.

It is a pain when they do this. It does however stop the usual Vulkan-spam, so thankfull for small mercies.

[Grunge]

Well, the tournment has a few other rules who even make it less attractive. I decided as soon as I read Belial was not allowed that I would be playing Fantasy.

My point was to come up with a few army lists/options/strategies on using a DW oriented army with only standard choices and still make it work. As I've always played DW in 40k, I undestand very little of its sinergies with regular Dark Angels and non-Land Raider tanks :P

I'd just probably should just be reading the Dark Angels tactica :P

[Metheon]

Have you considered contacting the organizers and ask them if its okay to take belial in order to play deathwing, it might just be an oversight on their part.

[Bartali]

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233494

Darkangeldentist made it through to the UK GT final playing a combined DA list. I have a feeling however it's probably more down to his generalship rather than the list itself

[the-skylord]

If two multimelta dread drop-pod down behind you lines on turn and in theory take out your 2 LRCs, should you go into combat with it as long as you have a chainfist and several powerfists? Or should you just shoot them with assult cannons?

Discuss.

[dean]

Statement retracted because I am a tit and cannot read an entire post before I jump to a conclusion and answer what I thought was asked... Sorry...

[konate]

I think he means assaulting the Dreads.

I would say it depends on your target priority. Sure, you could avoid the Dreads by keeping the LR between you, if you've got higher priority targets.

Or, you can both shoot AND assault the Dread if your shooting doesn't take it out.

[aekold666]

It depends on the mission. in a killpoints mission I would go for the dreadnoughts. If you charge it, the dread only has 2 attacks, meaning that on average he will only kill 1 terminator. With a decent number of power/chainfists you should be able to take it out.

[Zeroth]

Hello gents. Thought I'd pop by to tell you that I'm gonna play a 1.750pts tournament this weekend. It'll be a lot of fun, regardless of the results

But wish me luck!

If you're interested in my army list I've posted it here

[aekold666]

I have been working on an article about dreadnoughts in deahtwing. While it is not entirely finished I think I covered most of the bases. Please tell me what you think.

1 Dreadnoughts.

The opinions of Dreadnoughts are always a mixed bag. Some people love them, some people hate them.
First let’s have a look at the pro’s and cons of the dreadnoughts.

Cons:
1. They are relatively easy to kill. Some people claim that they easy to kill part isn’t true. They have more front and side armour then a rhino, are not automatically hit in close combat when not moving and they can dish out in close combat themselves. While this is all true they tend to draw a lot more attention than transports with lower armour values, because they pose more of a threat. This causes them to attract more anti-tank fire and die quickly. You can increase their survivability by giving them the venerable status but this will make them even more expensive. This leads to the second con.
2. Dreadnoughts are relatively expensive when compared to other units. A dreadnought with a plasma cannon or multi-melta is about as expensive as a 5 man devastator squad with a plasma cannon or multi-melta. They both have certain advantages, but one of the biggest advantages the devastator squad has is ablative wounds. The only form of protection the dreadnought has is the venerable status but if you choose to buy that, the devastator squad gets another heavy weapon, thus increasing its fire output.

Pro’s:
1. Dreadnoughts can lay down some awesome firepower, while they keep on moving. This enables you to stay mobile and still pose a threat. Giving all your weapons (bar the heavy flamer) a minimum range of 30”.
2. The dreadnought close combat weapons gives you a impressive S10, which is great for causing instant death on ork bosses and other T5 nasties.
3. Despite the things I said at Con 1 they are capable of taking considerable damage. When a hit destroys your ranged weapon you still have your close combat weapon with build-in weapon. When this happens to a vindicator it loses almost all its function while a dreadnought can still smash things to death with its close combat weapon.
When your dreadnought gets immobilized you still have you ranged weapon to threaten the enemy, you remain active. A transport that gets immobilized loses almost all function.
4. A dreadnought is able to run, allowing it to close the distance with the enemy even quicker.

All together there are quite a few advantages to dreadnoughts.

2 Weapon options.

2.1 The Assault cannon:
Standard it comes with an assault cannon. An extremely decent weapon and if you are not sure what weapon to give your dreadnought I would suggest using this weapon. It gives you 4 S6 rending shots that are capable of both hurting troops and destroying vehicles.

2.2 The Plasma cannon:
You can exchange your assault cannon for a plasma cannon for free. The plasma cannon has certain advantages over the assault cannon: 12” more range and it is a bit more consistent in causing hits on troops and taking out heavy infantry such as terminators. On the other hand it can only cause one hit on vehicles, while the assault cannon can cause up to 4 hits. Also the assault cannon can penetrate AV13 while the plasma cannon can only glance AV13.

2.3 The Multi-melta:
One of the best anti armour weapons in the game. This weapon is most often seen on a dreadnought with a close combat weapon and a heavy flamer, mounted in a droppod. They are mostly sent on a suicide mission to take out the enemy’s landraider or other heavy support. The multi-melta performs a completely different roll then the plasma and assault cannon. While the plasma and assault cannon can both be used against infantry and vehicles with success the multi-melta loses much of its power when fired at infantry.

2.4 The lascannon:
The long-range, heavy armour killer. This weapon is seen pretty often on dreadnoughts. Mainly because it is twin-linked, making sure that you almost always score a hit. The S9 makes sure that you usually penetrate the armour of transports and medium tanks and gives you a decent change against the heaviest of tanks. The range of 48” means it can remain behind your forces and taking out the enemy from a far.

The lascannon should never be used in combination with a DCCW in my eyes, because when you are shooting at the enemy you are not using your DCCW and the range and function of the lascannon means chances are slim you can use your stormbolter as well. When you end up in close combat you can’t use your lascannon, meaning that your dreadnought has lost its purpose.

The main downside of the lascannon is that it comes at a hefty 20 points, making you dread considerably more expensive.

2.5 The missile launcher:
The missile launcher is the only weapon that can substitute the close combat weapon. This means that it can be combined with any of the other mentioned weapons here. Before I look at the different combinations possible, first let us look at the missile launcher on it’s own.

The missile launcher is extremely versatile, because it can fire both frag and krak missiles. I am not going into detail on these missiles since everybody should be familiar then. The only downside is that it costs 10 points to equip a missile launcher.

The fact that the missile launcher is extremely versatile and is used on the other dreadnought arm means that it is possible to make a nice fire support platform. The following combinations are possible:

1. Missile launcher and assault cannon: This combination is almost never used, because of the differences in range. The missile launcher operates at 48” and the assault cannon at 24”.This means you have to get closer to the enemy, making it easier for the opponent to target the dreadnought.
2. Missile launcher and multi-melta: These weapons are each other’s complete opposites. The melta operates preferably at 12” while the missile launcher wishes to stay far away from the enemy. If anyone would suggest using this combination I would strongly advice against is.
3. Missile launcher and plasma cannon: This combination gives you a very decent anti-infantry dreadnought, capable of throwing out 2 templates at a time. This dreadnought can handle any type of infantry. These two weapons also work well together due to the fact that they are both long range weapons.
4. Missile launcher and lascannon: An extremely deadly and often seen combination. This configuration is used for tank and MC hunting. The high strength, low AP and range of both weapons complement each other. The only downside of this configuration is that it costs a hefty 155 points.
5. Missile launcher and autocannon; This combination looks a lot like the missile launcher/lascannon dread except it is cheaper. Basically it fulfills the same role as the missile launcher/lascannon dreadnought but it can’t be used to target heavy armour. It is still a decent MC hunter though. When points are in short supply and you want a decent transport killer I would advice to take this dread.
6. Missile launcher and heavy bolter: In my eyes this weapon combo just doesn’t cut it. It is somewhere between the missile launcher/assault cannon and missile launcher/autocannon combination. The heavy bolter has fewer shots and strength then the assault cannon. On the other hand the heavy bolter has more range and is twin-linked, thus making this combination better then the assault cannon/missile launcher dreadnought. The missile launcher/autocannon dread on the other hand has more range, higher strength, the same AP and only one less shot. Thus making the autocannon superior in this case.
While this configuration makes for a nice infantry killing dreadnought I think that the missile launcher/plasma cannon dreadnought makes for a better anti-infantry dreadnought due to the fact that templates almost always hit something.

2.6 The heavy bolter:
This weapon is almost never seen on dreadnoughts due to two reasons. First of there isn’t a model for it, you have to order it from Forgeworld. Secondly, it falls between the assault cannon en autocannon.
When compared to the assault cannon it has more range and is twin-linked, thus meaning that your chances of hitting are greater. On the other hand, the assault cannon has higher strength, more shots and rending, thus having a higher damage potential. Rending also means that the assault cannon can hurt heavier enemies.
When we compare the heavy bolter to the autocannon, the only advantage the heavy bolter has is that it fires one more shot. The autocannon has more range and higher strength. Both are twin-linked and have the same AP.
In conclusion, the heavy bolter is overshadowed by other weapons; making is one of the least suited weapons to be put on a dreadnought.

2.7 The autocannon:
The autocannon is almost never used on a normal dreadnought because other weapons are just better. When we compare it to the other available weapons the following things stand out.

When compared to the assault cannon it has more range and is twin-linked but less shots, which in my eyes balances out against each other. The changes of penetrating AV12 are equal and the assault cannon has rending thus a change to hurt higher AV vehicles. The fact that it has twice the range is partially negated by the fact that deathwing armies usually operate at the 24” range.

2.8 Dreadnought close combat weapon:
The dreadnought is normally equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapons which gives it strength 10 and negates armour saves. This gives the dreadnought a nasty close combat punch and enables it to take out tanks in combat.

The DCCW is armed with a stormbolter which can be exchanged with a heavy flamer for 5 points. I would never use the heavy flamer unless you are podding in your dreadnought close to the enemy lines. The stormbolter has the range to be combined with the fire from the other weapons, thus inflicting more casualties.

3 The venerable dreadnought
For a measly 20 points we can upgrade our dreadnought to a venerable dreadnought. This allows us to force the opponent to reroll on the damage chart when firing at our dreadnought, (hopefully) increasing its lifespan. I find this upgrade most useful on dreadnoughts you want to have in close combat, for example:
Your dreadnought is in close combat with an ork squad with a powerclaw chances are that the claw will score penetrating hit and destroy your dreadnought. Forcing him to reroll the damage effect can turn this around and really drive your opponent to frustration.
I would not use this upgrade on dreadnought with 2 ranged weapons because 5 out of 6 damage results will hamper our dreadnought’s shooting abilities.

A word of caution: Think before you force the opponent to reroll the damage result. An immobilized dreadnought is annoying, but is it worth the risk to reroll the damage result and get a destroyed result?

4 Extra armour
Extra armour is almost never worth I, because it only effects 1 out of the possible 6 damage results. If you consider buying extra armour, buy venerable status instead because this has more impact on the damage dealt to your dreadnought.

5 Successful dreadnought configurations.
1. DCCW with stormbolter and assault cannon.
Standard dreadnought which packs a punch both in shooting and close combat. One of the more versatile configurations.
2. Missile launcher and lascannon:
the most expensive dreadnought but also one of the best. Due to its range it can hang back and take out armour from a distance. It lacks the DCCW so beware of enemies getting to close.
3. Missile launcher and autocannon.
The budget version of the armour killers, while it lacks the punch of the lascannon/missile launcher combo it still is very useful against transports and monstrous creatures.
4. DCCW with heavy flamer and multi-melta in a droppod:
This is essentially a suicide dreadnought, designed to take out enemy armour quickly. It drops behind the enemy to take a shot at the rear armour. A distinct disadvantage of using a dark angel droppod is that we do not have the droppod assault rule, meaning that they come in with the normal reserves. This means that your dreadnought will be arriving at turn 2 if you are lucky. The heavy flamer is used to make life miserable for infantry that happens to be around. Expect this use of your dreadnought to result and a quick wrecking of your dreadnought.
5. Missile launcher and plasma cannon.
This configuration gives you great anti-infantry power, throwing out 2 templates per turn. It can take one any type of infantry due to the plasma cannon’s AP2.

6 The Mortis dreadnought.
Special mention should be made of our Mortis pattern dreadnought. The mortis dreadnought is equipped with two missile launchers which can be exchanged for a pair of twin-linked bolters, twin-linked autocannons or twin-linked lascannons.

All the things said above about the different weapon options still apply to the dreadnought with exception of the heavy bolter. A heavy bolter Mortis Dreadnought provides your army with some great anti-infantry power. When we compare a heavy bolter Mortis with an autocannon Mortis dreadnought it becomes clear that the heavy bolter Mortis is better suited at killing infantry due to the high number of shots, while the autocannon Mortis is more of a transport killer due to his higher strength.

The missile launcher Mortis can fill both the ant-infantry and tank hunter role, due to the versatility offered by the missile launcher.

The lascannon Mortis is used against landraiders, monoliths and other though foes.

Having no DCCW means that the Mortis dreadnought is a fire support dreadnought and should be kept in cover at all times. This due to the fact that 5 out of 6 results from the damage chart hamper its shooting.

7 Conclusion.
Dreadnoughts can be configured in many ways, allowing you to fill gaps in your army, especially when playing deathwing. When using two landraider crusaders you might want to configure your dreadnoughts as tank hunters, because the landraiders provide the infantry killing with the hurricane bolters.
The opposite can also be done. When using two landraiders with lascannons you equip your dreadnoughts with assault cannons, plasma cannons or missile launchers, just whatever you think will be most suited for killing infantry.

[grave digger]

I like the article and kudos to you for taking the time to write it up. I'm a fan of dreads (grew up on robotech/battletech) and love the look. Sadly I've been using them less in the new 5th ed rules since they do die more often.

I skimmed read the article but did not see mention that two dreads work better than one or see mention of Drop Pods.

Diggs

[the-skylord]

Cheers for writing the article. It was very insightful for runing the dreads with a DW army.