Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

[Kabniel]

Got a game in against a nid list
tyrant
3x3 zoanthropes
3x3 warriors with bone swords
trygon
slow, stupid, heavy gun type thing. tyrannofex?
- he focused alot on having str 10 ranged attacks with the zoanthropes and tyrannofex. I don't know about the tyrant as it was the first thing to die.

i was playing
belial
2x shooty squad with AC
1x assault squad with x3LC and x2TH
mortis with AC
dread with plasma cannon and heavy flamer
dread with lascannon and missile launcher
crusader
godhammer

1750pts
Kill Points
Deployment was the half/half type. Dawn of war?

I lost the dread with the LC and ML in the last turn. He was left with 1 zoanthrope in CC with the assualty squad, 1 zoanthrope just hanging out in front of the firing squad, and the tyrannofex type deal on it's last wound. Game ended on turn 5.

Big mistakes on his part:
- Forgetting to specify what was not in reserve and forgetting to bring in his army on turn 1.
- Funneling his forces through the terrain for me to shoot apart easily.
- Deep striking the Trygon right between his army and mine. There wasn't much else to shoot at that turn other than the Trygon.
- Trying to goad me with "You're the only person i know that only fights a retreat. You never advance." While true, it seems to have annihilated his army.

Mistakes for me:
- If I had known about the 3x3 zoanthropes, a librarian might have been nice. His shooting with those squads stunned a raider a couple times. This prevented it from wiping out those squads faster. Maybe the hood would have been helpful.
- popping smoke on the 5th turn with the dread might have saved it for a lossless win. But that's just being greedy. War is not without losses.

Getting the hang of fighting big bug lists. It was his "anti-tank 3" list. He expects me to field all the armor i do. I need to change things up a little and get him/me out of the rut.

[OllieC23]

Hi Lads,

I have just posted a list on here. Please check it out if possible.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...15#post4699715

Many thanks

[FarseerUshanti]

Kabniel,

I'm guessing you won on kill points? That build of 'Nids can certainly hurt especially if he does well attacking the Land Raiders and Dreads, When I play against similar lists it often seems to be luck if I can last long enough to get into combat on my terms

[Kabniel]

Righto. He tailored his list specifically to take mine on. Didn't work out too well though.

I only lost the single dread in the game. Even then, that was only on the last turn. Whereas, he was left with three models on the board, all in position to get taken out if there had been a turn 6.

[FarseerUshanti]

A Battle report for everyone to peruse over, this one was my DW against a Space Wolf list

My List
Belial
Chaplain
2 Term squads of 4 x TLLC, 1 x TH&SS
2 Term squads of 1 x AC&PF, 3 SB&PF, 1 x PS&SB
2 LRC's with Extra armor and Hunter Killer Missiles
3 man bike squad with a power weapon and 2 meltaguns

His list

Logan Grimnar attached to a long fang squad with 4/5 Multimeltas? a Sgt. and an upgrade character attached to the long fangs, can't remember his name, all in a drop pod

4 wolf guard squads with a wolf guard terminator leading them

3 of the wolf riders? the cavalry with toughness 5

Gametype was Annihilation with a Dawn of War Deployment

He went first and deployed 2 of his wolf guard squads in cover, and then in his first turn he brought on his three cavalry squads, and drop-podded another wolf guard squad in his deployment zone. He used the cyclone missile launchers from his wolf guard to shoot my terminators but failed to kill any. In my turn I brought both LRC's on next too each other with belial and a squad in one with the chaplain and an assault squad in another. I also turbo boosted my bikes onto the table, and then fired my shooty squads at the 2 closest wolf guard squads reducing them to 3 men and 2 men apiece.

Turn 2
My opponent decided to go for broke and drop-podded his squad of long fangs with logan grimnar right in front of both of my LRC's. At this point I was pretty scared but only managed to blow off the multi-meltas on each of them, in addition he moved up his cavalry and was able to charge and wipe out my bike squad.

In my turn i moved my LRC's around Logan Grimnar's squad so that they were between the squad and the oncoming cavalry, and then deployed my 2 squads from the LRC's and charged into combat. I managed to reduce Grimnar to 1 wound and the upgrade character to 1 wound as well, and they both began to fall back. I lost 2 members of belial's squad and all of the chaplains squad. I also moved my two shooting squads towards the combat in order to prevent them from being charged by the oncoming cavalry.

Turn 3

Once again he took potshots at my shooting squad with his wolf guard and killed one terminator from a squad, his characters continued to fall back, and he charged both my LRC's with with a squad a piece of his cavalry, the third squad was just out of range of combat, and he was unable to hurt my LRC's.

In my turn I joined the chaplain to Belial's squad and mounted them up in an LRC in addition to loading up the shooty squad that had been reduced to 4 men. Then both LRC's shot up one of the cavalry squads reducing it to one man with one wound. My shooty squad went after the 2 characters and managed to down the upgrade character, and I then charged grimnar and lost one terminator while failing to kill grimnar.

Turn 4

He once again charged the cavalry into my LRC's one squad to each and had his single cavalry left charge into the combat with my 4 man squad. the LRC with Belial was immobilized, and the other LRC was unable to move, I managed to kill Grimnar and the lone cavalry in his turn while losing no terminators. In my turn I disembarked Belial's squad and then charged them into one of the remaining cavalry squads, while moving the mobile LRC and then charging the other cavalry squad. I was able to wipe out his one squad with Belial's squad, but on the other side I was knocked down to one man after failing to hit the squad at all.

Turn 5

In my opponents turn he fired all his cyclone missile launchers at Belial's squad and managed to kill off the remaining men leaving my Chaplain dead and Belial with one wound apiece due to some spectacularly poor rolling. In combat my lone terminator somehow managed to survive, but was unable to kill anything and the game ended on that note.

I managed to get 4 kill points to his 5, but I feel that had there really wasn't a whole lot i could do to improve except have some better dice rolls. One thing i found is that the space wolf cavalry units are not that fearsome unless they get to charge. Because I was able to keep my terminator squads out of their range they could not devastate me and had to be content with accepting a charge from me instead

[metro_gnome]

i've been thinking of making up a deathwing for one of the sucessors...
not sure which yet... maybe Disciples...
I'm wondering how this would fair at 1500:

Belial: TH/SS (my group is ok with new SS so long as i don't spam them)
1 Dreadnought: AC/SB
5 Deathwing: Banner, Heavy Flamer
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
1 Crusader: Extra Armor

I have magnetized my dread so against some willing opponents I'll bring a rifleman..
which will cost me my armor on my crusader... prolly add the SB there to make up for the loss...

I was thinking of DWA 1 or all Squads except the command squad in the LRC... depending on enemy deployment...
but i get the impression that DWA is less desireable... than walking...
i'm not sure about this... DPA gets some use... and if 2 of 3 arrive on turn 1 shouldn't I be doing ok?
so long as I'm Deep striking into defensive positions... is the 3rd squad arriving later that bad?

[Madgear Thundaklutch]

I'm wondering how this would fair at 1500:

Belial: TH/SS (my group is ok with new SS so long as i don't spam them)

Twin LCs if youre going assaulty, or SoS/SB if shooty

1 Dreadnought: AC/SB

Try to make him tllc/ML imo. Itll be point heavy, but IME, the AC doesnt do better at popping tanks than the TLLC and ML, plus you gain a longer reach.

5 Deathwing: Banner, Heavy Flamer
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing: Assault Cannon
1 Crusader: Extra Armor

Again, I dont agree with mixing combat and shooty. Drop the LRC for an LR, vindis, or shooty dreads.

I was thinking of DWA

no

get the impression that DWA is less desireable... than walking...

less desireable than a root canal

i'm not sure about this... DWA gets some use... and if 2 of 3 arrive on turn 1 shouldn't I be doing ok?

Root Canal incoming!

[bobafett012]

i get the impression that DWA is less desireable... than walking...

don't listen to anyone who tells you DWA is worse than walking or bad. Granted many times footslogging is a better option, specially when you want to stay away from your opponent, like when your opponent runs a dedicated CC army, however DWA can be good in some situations.

My only suggestion is if you DWA, do not just DWA 1 squad, then that squad is left all by itself to be shot to pieces, and don't DWA your entire force because we are already out numbered and waiting too long for term squads to come in could easily cost you the game.

If i DWA i will do 3 squads, that way 2 come in together, and that only leaves a single squad in reserve, which can be a boon because by turn 2/3 you should know where abouts you need the extra reinforcements to come in at.

[Red_Lep]

don't listen to anyone who tells you DWA is worse than walking or bad. Granted many times footslogging is a better option, specially when you want to stay away from your opponent, like when your opponent runs a dedicated CC army, however DWA can be good in some situations.

My only suggestion is if you DWA, do not just DWA 1 squad, then that squad is left all by itself to be shot to pieces, and don't DWA your entire force because we are already out numbered and waiting too long for term squads to come in could easily cost you the game.

If i DWA i will do 3 squads, that way 2 come in together, and that only leaves a single squad in reserve, which can be a boon because by turn 2/3 you should know where abouts you need the extra reinforcements to come in at.

^good advice^

Another thing to consider is terrain placement and attempting to guess were your opponent will deploy their units and plan ahead on where you will DWA your own squads. I admit, this is difficult to do versus a new opponent or an unfamiliar army, but if you are playing a friend try it out.

EDIT: Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I'm not that great at conveying what I mean :/

[FarseerUshanti]

Of course there are some armies that DWA is not worth using against. Two that spring to mind are Tyranids and Orks, but really anything with a good amount of speed. The speed and size of those armies make DWA an extremely risky proposition because squads can get isolated and be left without any support which is the death of DW armies. That said DWA is great against static armies if you can get a bit of luck with the dice rolls, and make smart decisions, but I personally have no use for it

[metro_gnome]

thanks for the advice guys... all except Madgear Thundaklutch who can go root my canal...

I never envisioned deep striking a squad all by their lonesome...
nor would I be deep striking into some assault type situation...
I don't think its necessary to DS agressively... just because I'm Deep striking...
But i could see using it to DSing @ 18"-24" for a AC shot on a juicy side armor...

My plan for this list was to move 12" w/ LRC and pop smoke... dred will run after... maybe have a smoke himself...
then DWA 2 units to support whatever this position is and make my stand there... retreating as necessary...
This abandons the home objective... but thats what the 3rd DWA can come in to reinforce on turn 2/3...
and chances are my squads will be retreating to this position anyway...

just seems really flexible to me...

[Kabniel]

Then why not just walk/run your DW squads next to the dread? You'd remove the chance of a mishap that otherwise could mess things up. (I only mention because some folks believe we need to minimize as much 'randomness' as possible in our army of choice.)

Shortest distance you will be able to setup from an enemy is 18". That's in Dawn of War if memory serves. Other scenarios, minimum is 24". Perfect for us. Let's say the table is a 4' table. So 48". If you deploy at the line, and move forward 6", you can shoot pretty much anything not lateral. If you are facing an army that thrives on long range shooting, then yeah, you're DWA might be useful. But you'll still be able to shoot them. I'd say it depends on terrain ultimately. And you wouldn't want to deploy in a corner or something that causes you to fight going down the 8' width of the table.

I typically face aggressive players who have a squad or two toeing the line of deployment to get as far forward as possible. I deploy forward as well, but am in a constant retreat while using the terrain to funnel squads into my fire arcs. I will let my LRC (with squad) scoot up a flank to try to get at an objective on their side. If they are trying to be aggressive, this tends to require them to split their forces. It also allows me to see what they are planning on throwing at that LRC/squad. If I feel it is necessary, I can change plans entirely. If they are playing defensively, then yeah, I need to move forward instead of retreating.

The only time I've seen Deep Striking seem worthwhile is when I need to get from one edge of the board to the opposite very quickly (eg. if I need to get into their deployment zone in 1 or 2 turns). If I knew I was going to need to do that, I would put the squad in a LRC, and go full tilt. Then I know the squad will be there when I need them, not hoping about a roll. DWA forgoes that roll, but in that scenario, you've got a squad sitting in the middle of the opposing army.

I think I see what you are saying. However, I'm not convinced it would work out like you are thinking. I guess I need to run some more foot slogging lists to get a better idea. I use too much turtle/castle technique with too much AV.

*edit* re: "is the 3rd squad arriving later that bad? "
Depends. Are they arriving later on turn 2 or turn 6? Are they going to be able to land near that objective, or is there a massive squad sitting on top of it? Do you get the last roll or does the opponent? Again, I think there are too many variables that can end up messing up a small army like Deathwing. You want to get the most out of everything. I don't necessarily feel that dropping on an objective on the last turn is getting everything I can out of them. Worse case scenario, it's a shooty squad that comes in on turn 6 with his turn still left. I've missed out on at least 50 stormbolter shots (5*5*2) and maybe some assault action. Not only that but they are about to get shot/assaulted. I could have used those rolls of the dice. Even the threat of those dice is valuable to me.

[metro_gnome]

well running with my DWs would prohibit them shooting on turn 1...
also moving off laterally onto a flank can be used defensively to stay away from particularly meancing guns...
remember with all other squads in reserve I would only have to consider the defense of the LRC squad and the dred...
scooting away (left or right) out of PC range and then DSing around that position could save a turn or 2 of serious heat...
and hopefully making it easier to chew up the opponent one piece at a time... while they reshuffle their deployment...

I see the Dred ending up a little behind the formation (particularly if it is rifleman)... screened by the LRC...
LRC + Squad sort of in the middle... and the DWAs landing in forward flanking type positions...
sort of like a "Y" formation on turn 1... and retreating on this axis...
to maybe a "T" formation on turn 2... and then a retreating gun line for the rest of the game...
anyway its all "best case scenario" theory at this point...

I do understand the awesomeness of deathwing mech... but find it really tight at 1500 (where my group is firmly wedged)...
not to mention part of my attraction to Deathwing is to use a bunch of troops that are actually effective...
instead of the 2 meched troops that are so-so (Tac Marines) that I'm running now...

*edit* re: "is the 3rd squad arriving later that bad? "
Depends. Are they arriving later on turn 2 or turn 6? Are they going to be able to land near that objective, or is there a massive squad sitting on top of it? Do you get the last roll or does the opponent? Again, I think there are too many variables that can end up messing up a small army like Deathwing. You want to get the most out of everything. I don't necessarily feel that dropping on an objective on the last turn is getting everything I can out of them. Worse case scenario, it's a shooty squad that comes in on turn 6 with his turn still left. I've missed out on at least 50 stormbolter shots (5*5*2) and maybe some assault action. Not only that but they are about to get shot/assaulted. I could have used those rolls of the dice. Even the threat of those dice is valuable to me.

and this is indeed the factor i'm not sure I understand...
Its not uncommon for me to reserve my tac squad in rhino @240 points... which is a similar loss in cost, shots and scoring...
but the effect of being without a whole squad in deathwing may be lost me on me until i see it in action...
this is the part I am most unsure about...

[Kabniel]

Gotcha. I thought that was kind of what you were getting at.

The awesomeness of mech is only as awesome as your opponents ability to not roll a 3+ on penetration. I just a sucker for armor and don't have enough ACs to make foot slogging feel worth it.

[Russell's teapot]

Hello metro_gnome, I've snipped a bit of your post, I hope you don't mind

I see the Dred ending up a little behind the formation (particularly if it is rifleman)... screened by the LRC...
LRC + Squad sort of in the middle... and the DWAs landing in forward flanking type positions...
sort of like a "Y" formation on turn 1... and retreating on this axis...
to maybe a "T" formation on turn 2... and then a retreating gun line for the rest of the game...
anyway its all "best case scenario" theory at this point...

To be honest, that's not a bad plan. I'm still going to champion mech at 1500, although I agree it's tight and there are only a couple of viable mech builds (I will say that these builds are more viable than any other 1500 point build in my experience - but it's just that it suits my playstyle).

On DWA, I must say I'm finding I'm using it more & more. However, I have a different build to you. I have 2 LRCs with squads & ICs embarked, then another squad. I'm finding that I'm DWA'ing this squad if I'm going second, mostly to protect them against the unfortunate... They then DWA about 6-8" from my LRC line (either in front, beside or behind depending on the enemy's movements), then move my LRCs to support them (hopefully only 6" so that they can still fire!).

On occasion, after my opponent has moved & my LRCs are still viable, a 'sweet spot' opens up in my opponent's army, meaning I can DS the squad into their lines & rush the LRCs forward to support next turn (for counter charge) - it's risky, but I've had it work more often than not - but you need to be very careful.

I'd say that DWA is a very useful tool which should be considered before discounting, despite its inherent dangers. It adds a flexibility of movement to the DeathWing army which cannot be given by footslogging troops. That said, a bad DS decision will cost you the game & it's a steep learning curve (although we should be used to that ).

and this is indeed the factor i'm not sure I understand...
Its not uncommon for me to reserve my tac squad in rhino @240 points... which is a similar loss in cost, shots and scoring...
but the effect of being without a whole squad in deathwing may be lost me on me until i see it in action...
this is the part I am most unsure about...

You made your reasoning in that you want an army where the troops are actually the mainstay of the army. A SM army doesn't rely on its troops. Indeed, there are many SM armies I've encountered where if you took the 400pts of troops out of the army, the remaining Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices could probably defeat most armies on a given day. DeathWing (and some other armies - notably mechvetspam IG) operate very differently to this. The troops choices are the killing part of the army.

This means a paradigm shift in how you use them, as the opponent doesn't need to take out your army in the same way as your SM army. In a standard SM army your opponent has the choice of either killing fightening units that will kill him, or killing fairly weak offensive units that are resiliant & will score to win the game.

Against DeathWing, all he has to do is kill the troops, thereby taking out the offensive threat, and the scoring threat. This is the basis of the beauty of the DW mech list - the LRC is an offensive weapon that must be destroyed, a Godhammer or Dreadnaught does not have the offensive capability to mark it as a threat, therefore they take none of the heat off your valuable troops.

Hope that helps.

[acommoncold]

Again, I dont agree with mixing combat and shooty. Drop the LRC for an LR, vindis, or shooty dreads.

-Isn't that the point of Terminators? They have assault weapons (Stormbolter/Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer). Not to mention they can fire on the move (Cyclone Missile Launcher). ALLLSO, they have Power Fists, so by the very definition . . . they are mixed for combat and shooty o.0 (Unless you go full Close Combat Terminators)

Another thing I've noticed, is that just have one tank or dreadnought will in fact contrary to popular belief. Will in fact soak up the initial anti-tank weapons more often than not. Sooooo, yes on using a Land Raider, no one a single Vindicator.

Can't comment on the Dreadnought, since I haven't really used them with my list.

Regarding Deathwing Assault:

By the way Deathwing Assault denies the opponent first turn of shooting, which means you get to live that much longer. This works well with me since I play with a full force of 27 Terminators @ 1500pts. So depending on the army/terrain/where objectives are place. I can easily considering denying the enemy any chance at shooting my group, making me last that much longer in an already out numbered list.

Just how I feel about it on the issue of Deathwing Assault, I think I asked about it.

[Bartali]

-Isn't that the point of Terminators? They have assault weapons (Stormbolter/Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer). Not to mention they can fire on the move (Cyclone Missile Launcher). ALLLSO, they have Power Fists, so by the very definition . . . they are mixed for combat and shooty o.0 (Unless you go full Close Combat Terminators)

That's just a short hand for configs, a standard 'tactical' squad is shooty, cc weapons only is assault. Mixed is a mixture of the two, which normally doesn't work very well.

Another thing I've noticed, is that just have one tank or dreadnought will in fact contrary to popular belief. Will in fact soak up the initial anti-tank weapons more often than not. Sooooo, yes on using a Land Raider, no one a single Vindicator.

A single Land Raider will indeed soak up Lascannon, Lance etc shots at range. What it won't do is soak up 'proper' anti-tank, such as Meltaguns.

Regarding Deathwing Assault:

By the way Deathwing Assault denies the opponent first turn of shooting, which means you get to live that much longer. This works well with me since I play with a full force of 27 Terminators @ 1500pts. So depending on the army/terrain/where objectives are place. I can easily considering denying the enemy any chance at shooting my group, making me last that much longer in an already out numbered list.

Just how I feel about it on the issue of Deathwing Assault, I think I asked about it.

You will only deny the first turn of shooting if you get to go second

[m_r_parker]

By the way Deathwing Assault denies the opponent first turn of shooting, which means you get to live that much longer. This works well with me since I play with a full force of 27 Terminators @ 1500pts. So depending on the army/terrain/where objectives are place. I can easily considering denying the enemy any chance at shooting my group, making me last that much longer in an already out numbered list.

Again, it's been said before - you're opponent is only denied the first turn of shooting if you go second. Even if you get down safely, and manage to get out of LoS of your opponent, there's still a lot that can be done to get pot-shots at you.

Which brings me onto my second gripe at DWA - you're down safely, so now what? Do you use a Run move to disperse and maybe get into cover, or do you stand and shoot at something. If you don't Run then you leave yourself in a close-knit formation that is screaming for a barrage of Blast Templates, however if you do Run then you deny yourself a turn of shooting - and considering the low body count, as well as many players previous experience, losing a turn of shooting hurts.

Once you factor in unlucky scatter rolls (if you're planning to run into cover after a Deep Strike, there's always the chance of landing in the cover itself...), staggered unit availability (mitigated somewhat by the first-turn drop rules, but still leaves some units until the end of the game), and general game scenarios and deployment rules there's a par of you which almost wants to say "scrap DWA - I'm just going to deploy on the board in cover"

• Depending on deployment and scenario, you may well be closer to your opponent than you think
• Depending on the amount of cover, Deep Striking could be too risky in your opoonents half of the board (Losing a unit to a mishap hurts)
• Unless you're holding just a single squad in reserve, then part of your (already outnumbered) force is waiting in the wins until later in the game
• Even if you do get down safely, you have the choice of Run or Shoot - where the preffered option of "both" is unavailable

Against some opponents it's preferable, but I'd still much rather have the feet on the ground per se.

[Kjkritter]

As a long time Ravenwing player, I am attempting to increase the durability of my army by branching out to Deathwing.

The following post contains a "Doublewing" army list that I have not had the privilege of trying out yet.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261763

Comments and criticism from a Deathwing perspective would prove invaluable.

Note:
Reading this thread leaves one apprehensive to use DWA, though teleport homers would surely settle some of the aforementioned qualms, no?

[Lion El Jason]

Kjkritter:
DWA and scouting bikes with homers are how doublewing works and they are still considered the best our codex has to offer (At around 80% as effective as a balanced army) so have no worries there. Pinpoint DS strikes and firepower to back it up does ok.