I hope you’re all ready for the one-post guide to DeathWing Mark II. This should wrap up the differences we’ve had since the FAQ, and take into account the play testing we’ve had since the FAQ.
As always, the caveats come first:
1) This material is designed for armies in the 1500 – 2000 point bracket, larger or smaller than this & you’re playing a different game
2) This is my opinion, but if you disagree then you are wrong
3) This is a kind of distillation of the thread, mistakes are all mine, correct stuff is probably someone else’s work!
PURE DEATHWING ARMIES
1) If you aren’t using Land Raiders, you are doing it wrong
2) If you go for all out assault, you will lose
Why is this the case?
Land Raiders are essential. If you aren’t using them then 2 things happen: Your small, elite army will be blasted off the table by the enemy’s long range guns; and you can’t get to where you need to be.
Assault is not where elite armies tend to want to be. Terminators are not assault specialists in a pure DeathWing army. THSS is rightly held up as the pinnacle of destructive death in a SM army, however, SM terminators have something we do not – support. Speeders, bikes, predators, devestators – all these will blow up other stuff while the terminators go and smash something up. If you have 4-5 squads of terminators running at the enemy, they will die because your enemy has run away (see Land Raider point), and their entire army is firing at yours. If you are walking towards the enemy, you can fire (8-10 missiles a turn – or as it is known, not enough), and you’ll never get into assault.
Now you could combine Land Raiders & an assault army. Then you have a twofold problem. The first is meltaguns, you have no option but to get into meltagun range & your tanks will die. The second is stuff that you don’t want to be in combat with, and this breaks down into 2 problems – hordes (see IG blob squad & orks) which will hold you up for the rest of the game while the enemy gets the objectives, and will likely have a hidden powerfist to mess you up more then them – and assault specialists which are better, or as good at you in combat, either they destroy you, or you destroy each other, while the rest of his army gets the objectives (see the theme?)
So in essence you will have Land Raiders and (predominantly) shooty terminators as your force. This allows you to have a good mix of shooting & assaulting in your list. This provides FLEXIBILITY, the mainstay of everything you need to take in a DeathWing list. The reason that this is important is because YOU WILL BE OUT NUMBERED, YOU WILL BE OUTGUNNED. Each choice you take needs to be able to do everything, and do it adequately, by itself, because for each unit/ vehicle you have, your opponent will have two.
Now, just because each unit can operate as an independent army, this doesn’t mean that it should. In fact the only way to win with DeathWing is to ensure your army acts as a single army, not a disparate collection of different choices. By having a number of similar, resilient, high damage potential models firing together, the DeathWing can overcome any force. The key, again, is FLEXIBILITY. An ork horde will not be destroyed as effectively in combat by 15 terminators as it will by 15 terminators shooting and moving backwards followed by an assault. A squad of power weapon toting jump-packers are not scared of you in combat, but you can shoot them at least twice before they get to you, when they are weak, they will be overcome.
The mantra is the summation of this; never forget the mantra:
CONCENTRATE your fire
ASSAULT on your terms
BELIEVE in the God-Emperor
With all this in mind, let us move to some specifics.
I) Which ICs should you take, and how should you equip them?
Before we talk about this, we need to explore how ICs are used in DeathWing army. Their first role is that of a bullet magnet. The first shot against a squad with an IC attached that doesn’t caused instant death should ALWAYS be taken on the IC. If the IC can catch a plasma shot (for instance as a non-instant death, AP2 weapon) then all the better, you’ve just saved a terminator. This should be used until the IC is down to one wound. Therefore your squads will be far more resilient to being shot. The second role of the IC is to do something that the terminators can’t, this gives your squad FLEXIBILITY.
Given that we will have at least two DeathWing squads in our army, and the ICs bring a lot to a squad, it stands to reason that we should bring as many as we can. So two.
Belail: We need to take him. He can be equipped three ways:
Twin lightning claws: Provides a high number of I5 attacks, which you terminators can’t do. Wounds fairly efficiently with the rerolls to wound.
Sword and storm bolter: gets I5 attacks, but not as many as with the twin lightning claws. Bolter is as the rest of the squad.
Thunder hammer & storm shield: does nothing the squad doesn’t already do, but makes his bullet catching role better.
On balance, the lightning claw option seems to be the best. His many I5 attacks will clear out some scary baddies, leaving less assault hits back on your terminators – especially as the opponent will have to split some of those fewer attacks to him. The THSS isn’t bad, but if you’re running land raiders, then the I5 is more useful.
Librarian: Has a good role in bullet catching, but his psychic power in this regard is poor due to his Ld9 and the prevalence of psychic hoods means that it’s unreliable. His force weapon is useful for instant death-ing things, but considering you’ll be hitting that same thing with a bunch of powerfists at I1, then really, who cares. His hood could be useful, but he’s Ld9, so it isn’t.
Chaplain: This is the default 2nd IC. A reliable bullet catcher with a 4++. He has I5 like Belail. But his main bonus is what he brings to the squad. He makes your terminators frightening in combat. You can now charge dedicated assault units which strike before you – they may take out half the squad, but Chaplain ensures that they hit back with the power of a full squad. Monstrous creatures, power weapon assaulting squads, and the like melt away to a chaplain delivered assault.
There we are we need two ICs, Belail with lightning claws, and a Chaplain.
Never spend points on your ICs – except terminator armour (or you aren’t playing DeathWing), they have limited options & the points are better spent elsewhere. The combi-melta may look exciting, but our squads get melta weapons that are much better as we’ll discuss later.
II) How many Land Raider Crusaders should you use?
Now, the leading question is out of the way, lets take a look at why the Crusader is THE tank for DeathWing. We have discussed previously that your terminators will be predominately shooty, therefore we need to look at the synergies the Crusader brings to DeathWing:
1) They both shoot 24": This means that you can keep your entire army together, focus fire, and protect your troops with your tanks, or tanks with your troops (depending on threats) whilst maintaining a 24" threat zone, and nothing gets left behind.
2) Troop movement: There are times when you simply need to get out of a situation & the LRCs allow you to load up an run for the hills should you need to. In addition, for your troops to be effective, they need to be within 24". Again the transport allows you to get to that area when the enemy refuses to come to you.
3) They're rock hard: Crusaders provide immunity from most weaponry on the 40k battlefield.
So why shouldn’t we be taking a Godhammer? (A quick point here – Godhammer refers to the original Land Raider. In some canon it is called something different, but in this thread, Godhammer is the name - after the lascannon mounts) Here are the reasons why a Crusader is better than a Godhammer:
1) Killing stuff: The Crusader is simply better. At killing light troops, the tank is a unit murderer, cover or not. Against heavy troops you put out so many shots that some are bound to die, and your troops can finish them off. Against tanks the assault cannon and multi-melta are far more effective (at the tank & troops shooting range of 24") than the Godhammer, at 12" it is even better. At 48" the Godhammer is obviously better at killing anything, but consider:
a) if your land raider is 48" from the enemy & your troops are 24" away from the enemy, neither is supported adequately & both will die
b) if your land raider is 48" away with your troops, your troops are firing 2 missiles and you kill less
c) 24" is a massive range in 40k. With 2 land raiders, you can drive into the middle of the board & dominate most of it, only the corners and extreme edges are safe, but you can move 6" and still shoot to cover most of this area.
2) Moving stuff: The extra capacity of the LRC is fantastic. At 1500 points, I'd always recommend 2 LRs & 2 IC. So if you need to move your army & you have 2 ICs - how do they get transported? The LRCs provide flexibility in that a squad can attach 1 or 2 ICs and still be able to load up & go where they like. This is useful where an IC has had a squad shot out from around them & needs to join another squad.
3) Assaulting: The Crusader is an assault tank, meaning it is the only way we can get I5 from our ICs whilst charging into cover.
Now that we know why the Crusader is better, we can go back to the question of how many to take. Fairly obviously, it depends on the points. However, the basic rule is that one is not enough. Two is sufficient at 1500, but above these points, things get exciting. Three Land Raiders are necessary at 2000 points, due to the increase in anti-tank weaponry available to you opponent. At 1750/1850 it’s more of a choice between having more scoring units or having all your units transported.
Either way, as a third tank, a Godhammer could be the tank for you. At this point you may be wondering why considering the amount of time I spent above extolling the Crusader. The reason is FLEXIBILITY. While the Crusader is better, the Godhammer has range on its side & as both of your ICs already have a transport, then the extra capacity of the Crusader isn’t so important. However, a third Crusader is never a bad choice due to its inherent multi-tasking role of anti-tank and anti-infantry.
The only option on the Land Raider worth considering is extra armour. Crusaders need this, however, loading out your squads correctly is more vital, therefore only add thisupgrade once your squads are rounded out & you have points left over.
III) How many Dreadnoughts should be used?
None. Every army in the game has multiple ways of dealing with AV12. You can’t saturate armour as you are limited to 3 AV12 chassis. Leave them at home.
IV) How should squads be equipped?
First of all, we need to consider the wound-wrapping mechanic in 5th edition 40k. See here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=20 for details. Ignore the squad set ups, they relate to pre FAQ load outs.
As previously discussed, shooting is the way forward. But, this needs to be netted off against durability. We therefore need to add at least 1 THSS – sergeant, step up, you lose this round, the sargeant’s power weapon doesn’t add anything of real note to the squad, therefore it is replaced. You may be well served by adding a further THSS to the squad, it depends on your meta. If you have an IC attached, this probably isn’t necessary, but a squad without an IC probably should take this option.
The other option we have is the chain fist. 5 points you simply must spend. This is 5th edition and the melta gun is king. The chainfist is a 3 shot melta gun (think about it, with 6” it does double damage just like a melta gun and has a 12” threat range). With a Chaplain in the squad, it’s hard to miss with this weapon. Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts are no longer a threat to you.
Next up is the heavy weapon. We have real choice here, so a breakdown is required:
Heavy flamer: short ranged, but can kill a lot of enemies. This isn’t going to hurt vehicles. Pass on this option because it can only hurt troops, and if you are firing the flamer, you can assault. If the flamer kills the squad then you can’t charge, are open to counter charge, and are likely to be stood in the open. Not to mention you’ll look a putz.
Assault cannon: Has many attributes. It’s good at killing troops, it is exceptionally good at taking out armour and it has the same threat range as the storm bolters. The downside is the fact that it isn’t AP3, and it costs a whopping 30 points.
Cyclone missile launcher: The go-to weapon. If you aren’t using this, then you need to think about why you aren’t using this weapon. The same number of shots as the assault cannon (as you keep the storm bolter) but significantly cheaper. It has range should you find yourself without a transport and is the premier weapon for taking out rhino chassis.
Squads should therefore look like this:
PF SB (or THSS if without an IC)
PF SB CML
There are further items of bling which you can add to squads being the banner & apothecary. The banner really isn’t worth it - if you can’t kill something with 15 powerfist attacks on the charge then really, you should have shot it more.
The apothecary is a lovely bit of kit. However, I would rather add extra armour to the Land Raiders to ensure that the squads are where they should be than have a more survivable squad where it shouldn’t be. Add only if you have points to spare.
V) How do you play the army?
Castle & refused flank.
No really, that’s it. Never split you army up. You have a 24” main threat range, use it. Stay away from fast melta – use terrain & use the maxim “if it’s faster than me, it dies first”. If your missiles can cripple you opponent’s movement on turn 1, get out of your tanks use your CMLs and stop him moving. Once DeathWing control Movement, you will be in a far better position to win.
You WILL NOT WIN by trying to destroy your opponent. You will only win by playing the mission, never forget the mission. Look at your opponent’s army list & pick out the threats. Target them. Do not waver. A threat is a threat – kill it. Once the main threats are dead, then worry about everything else. Once you have got to this position play to the mission.
DeathWing control the Midfield. Once you are there, your 24” guns cover the field. That’s 3 squads & 2 Crusaders at 1500 points. That’s a lot of shots.
Ensure you pick a threat & kill it. No half measures, overlap your fire arcs, kill it dead, a dead enemy can’t sneak off & capture an objective. A dead enemy can’t hurt you.
Do NOT worry about cowardice. A ‘tactical rearward advance’ is not retreat, pick your battles, you can withdraw. Remwmber you can get back into your tanks - if you need to redeploy, or hide your terminators then get back in the tank. If your opponent can't hurt your tanks, then stay in them & laugh as his feeble weapons bounce from its admantium hull!
Know your distances. 6”, 12”, 21.5”, 24” are the ones you need to know about. Learn them, learn the size of all your models so that you can triangulate the distances.
NEVER EVER DEEPSTRIKE unless you have the most cunning plan, you can then regret it after the battle.
VI) How do you pick a list?
1) Pick ICs (in TDA)
2) Pick Tanks (no upgrades)
3) Pick Troops (no upgrades)
4) Pick Troop essential weapons upgrades
5) Pick extra armour
6) Add bling
Hope that helps. Not quite as passionate as the last attempt. But at least its up to date, and gives people something to whinge about
Given that this is no longer a pure DeathWing thread, who wants to step up to do the Double/TripleWing one-post tactica?
The doublewing is probably one of the best builds to come out of the dark angels book, alongside land raider heavy deathwing lists. It functions well at 1500-2000 points and is capable of solid lists at 2500.
1. A combination of deathwing terminators and ravenwing is the only way to run doublewing. No dreads necessary
2. Deathwing should form the core of the army with ravenwing support. Not the other way around
3. Unlike pure deathwing armies, certain units in a doublewing army are expendable
Why 1? Deathwing and ravenwing are expensive unit choices. Adding dreadnoughts to your army soaks up points that don't offer a huge amount.
Why 2? Troops score. You need your troops to be able to hold off the inevitable assault on your objectives. Survivability is not the ravenwing's strong point.
The same points from russell's pure deathwing post can be applied. Your terminators are workhorse units, therefore you need them to be flexible. Even moreso because you will not be running land raiders to protect your boys - they will live or die based on initial placement, equipment and threat priorty. Again on the lack of land raider point, your terminators will need to be able to engage the enemy at a distance or they will simply avoid you.
What IC to take
You have 2 choices - belial or sammael. Unless you're playing over 2000 points, you should only ever take 1 as you need the points elsewhere.
As has been mentioned, its a tossup between thss and lightening claws. The claws make use of high initiative attacks and he can be slotted into a unit of storm shield weilders. I would always take lightening claws. Remember that first and foremost, he is a buller magnet for ap2 wounds that won't instant death him.
Should only ever be taken in a high points bracket. The ravenwing portion of your army are not objective takers - they are your support team. That said, if you do take him, the choice between land speeder and jetbike depends entirely on the amount of mech you have. As this will likely be low, a doublewing army is the only time we should see sammy on his jetbike. He is essentially a mobile devestator.
A chaplain doesn't add much to a footslogging squad except some high I power weapon attacks. The likelihood is that any squad with a chaplain in will be targeted as a priority by your opponent and you want to give him difficult choices.
The TDA libby is good for bullet catching and that's about it. The ld9 means enemy psykers are going to get the drop on you and, as part of his points cost is the psychic hood, its a waste. If you desperately want psyker protection, look to ezekiel instead. He can't deepstrike, but he has a ld10 psychic hood and 5 pw attacks on the charge. He makes a great babysitter for an objective holding squad. Ezekiel is my go to second IC for games 2000 points and up.
What ravenwing elements should I use
You have 2 choices for your support element:
1. Ravenwing attack squads
2. Ravenwing support squads
Both are viable, but the ravenwing attack squad adds more balance to a doublewing force and should always be taken first.
Consider what deathwing offers you - resiliance, but lack of good mobility. Anti infantry fire and anti light vehicle fire. What footslogging deathwing lack is the ability to quickly eliminate hard targets of av12 and above. You know, the ones carrying the template and multiple shot ap2 guns, or deathstars. Enter the ravenwing attack squad. 1 fast attack slot buys you 2 units (bikes and attack bike) that can carry 3 melta weapons between them. Perhaps more importantly, they have scout so they can happily melt tanks in the first turn, or come on later and force your opponent to the middle of the board that will be full of terminators. A good guide is take take 1 squad per 750 points so 1 at 1000, 2 at 1500 and 3 at 2000. They are support and they are expendable as they are there to remove threats your terminators can't. If you have any alive in the end game (which you shouldn't against a good opponent), they can make a break to contest objectives. You can also safely make use of deathwing assault, due to teleport homers. However, you need as many of your boys on the table as possible so I would only ever reserve 1 or 3 squads. Those that come down first turn should control midfield by your other move up.
The other option is landspeeder typhoons. Cheaper than the space marine variants, they give you good anti light vehicle and anti infantry fire. If you're in a gaming environment where you don't see a huge amount of high av, these are a good source of cheap and cheerful support. Be warned though, as your only av on the table, they are vulnerable and should only be used in triplewing lists with predators and/or dreads.
How should squads be equipped
If you are footslogging, you are more vulnerable to fire than you would be in a land raider. You must spread out to avoid template weapons and you must be able to shrug off ap2 fire, so at least 1 thss terminator is a must. You must also be able to threaten from turn 1 so the range of the cyclone is preferable on all squads. Assault cannons are ok on squads that will drop into the middle of the board.
In keeping with being.a ranged threat, you must have storm bolters. While you are more vulnerable footslogging, very few units can put multiple ap2 wounds on you so 2 thss is the max any squad should have. The sargeant should always replace his power weapon for a thss, which leaves you 3-4 storm bolter powerfist guys.
Chainfists are a must - you cannot afford to have a squad locked in combat with a walker for more than 2 turns. When you only have 4 squads to work with, that is a 25% loss in tactical flexibility.
For your command squad, the apothecary is mandatory. The more terminators you can keep on the board the more likely you are to win, simply through attrition.
Squads should be set up like so:
THSS/CML (for wound allocation)
You can move the cyclone onto a sb/pf terminator if (like me) that's how you built the models.
How do you play the army?
If you have first turn and your enemy has deployed, your ravenwing are on tank busting duty from the get go. The scout move and your first move should mean anything deployed within 30 inches of your bikes and 36 inchs from your attack bikes is getting melta to the face. Double up with the attack bikes against major threats. You likely won't get a second shot so make it count. Bring 1 or 2 terminator squads down in midfield to control that area and make sure they're in range to support each other if charged. Your terminators job here is to eliminate enemy mobility - transports, first, jump infantry/bikes second. If your shooting fails to eliminate tanks with ap2 templates, or your opponent is packing plasma devestators/oblits/leman russ executioner, don't be afraid to forgo with the terminators that have dropped to run into a spread position.
If you are going second - deploy all your terminators castled up and make your enemy come to you through a hail of missiles. This is much a war of attrition. Target priority with the terminators remains the same - transports first. The bikes should outflank and take potshots when they arrive, again aiming for targets your terminators can't deal with.
2 key points when playing the army:
1. Keeping your terminators in mutual support of each other. They are your workhorses, as opposed to the ravenwing which are expendable suicide units. 5 terminators is not that hard to deal with. 10 or 15 requires a huge expendment of resources.
2. Target priority is key. If you eliminate enemy mobility and the guns that actually scare you, your elite will win the battle of attrition against the rest of your opponents army.
How do you pick a list?
1. Pick the hq that unlocks terminators as troops (hint: it's not sammael)
2. Take 1 ravenwing squad with meltas and mm attack bike for every 750 points you are playing.
3. Take 1 deathwing squad for every 500 points.
4. Take essential weapon upgrades on those terminator squads (cyclone/assault cannon and chainfist)
5. Add an apothecary to one of your deathwing squads. Attach belial. This is your pain in the ass squad.
6. Any points left over should go into another deathwing squad or a supporting character like Ezekiel.
Nice posts guys. I won't comment on Russel's post as I don't play pure deathwing. However for double wing I like at least half my squads to be all TH/SH and the rest to be pure shooty with a chainfist tossed in. There are a couple reasons for this.
1. When you castle the TH/SH squads form a very nice wall that opponents are often very scared to get up in the face of. They also provide cover for your other terminators giving them a 4++ cover save.
2. When playing seize ground teleporting 2-3 squads of TH/SH as close as you can to their objective turn one often really screws up their plans.
3. With the current prevalence towards elite armies(GK/DW) or armies with a lot of long range ap1/2 shooting(razor spam) bigger TH/SH squads really help counter the threats they pose.
In the end I've probably got as many guns and hammers as any other list I just find dedicated squads to be more useful in a lot of situations than mixing and matching.
You should always swap the sergeant's PW/SB for TH/SS, IMO.
There is absolutely no reason not to.
My Chaos Project Log - ride the lightning!
Great posts guys!!!!
I love this tactica it is simply amazing! I have to say you guys have made Dark Angels my favorite army to play! I just wish I had the same success with my LRC heavy lists.
I recently played a 1,500 pt tournament where I happened to play against 2 Dark Eldar players. It seemed that my wonderful av 14 LRCs got destroyed turn 1 or 2 every game. I tried everything I could think of, but surviving ~ 18 lances a turn is quite difficult. Game 1 I castled up hoping for some awesome cover saves (Didn't help.....it's incredibly hard to hide a LRC in a corner). Game 2 I stuck everything in reserve and hoped to clear up some stuff as I rolled on.
The question I have to pose to you Russel is how do you deal with Dark Eldar (Venoms with blasters inside, Raiders with Venom Cannons inside)with your LRC heavy lists?
I love this tactica and I wish I could contribute something relevant but alas I can't think of anything.....except that taking Ezekiel in the current tournament scene is pretty much mandatory.
Droma, I see your point and I have to confess that my command squad has an extra thss because it is my objective assaulter.
However, do you not find your non thss units make target priority easy for your opponents. Those units are vulnerable to plasma in the open, forcing them into using cover. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Biscuits, I can't bring myself to take ezekiel in anything less than 2k. At 1500 I tend to just suck it up.
As always, great post Teapot, without leaving a unit out (even though I love my dreads, I only get them out for fun games).
Nothing's really new, but after 236 pages (and more with older thread) you bringing back the mantra is always nice ! Thanks a lot for sharing your accumulated wisdom
Indeed. For footslogging doublewing, a well played dual lash army is absolute hell.
Ok, Since I agree with RT on 99% of everything I'll keep this short but I'd like to question a couple of points see what people think.
1: Squad set up.
The power sword does one important thing: It makes the Sgt a different set.
I have had a noticable increase in survivability by using a trooper with TH&SS and keeping the Sgts power sword. The squad set up should be
Changing the sgt would be better if you plan to disembark and assault on the same turn with every squad and then stay in melee for ever but if you ever get shot, this is the superior set up. Also, the Sgt usually dies first so you lose very little in offense anyway (He has just as good a storm bolter!)
2: Heavy Flamers
While everything RT said is true, heavy flamers are 5 points and are probably the best points-effectiveness ratio in the game. If you can't find points for a CML (Or AC) then think of a flamer as they can do amazing things, just learn when not to overkill your target.
3: Land Raiders
I take the third land raider as a crusader and never regret it. I can't see the benefit of a godhammer but I can see where other metas may use it. IMO, if you want to play DW buy 3 crusaders. Later buy a godhammer if you want to be able to swap out.
Since the FAQ I always buy Extra Armour for at least 1 LR to keep the pressure on and ensure you can take the midfield.
Do not be afraid to re embark a squad into a LR and move them out of harms way.
In a similar vein, if you have to don't be afraid to just stay in the land raiders.
NEVER EVER DEEPSTRIKE should be the 4th line of the mantra.
I championed the Librarian for a long time, with Ld9 and psychic hoods being way too prevalent its simply the case that your libby will likely never use a power and never stop an enemy power. Chaplain is the only way.
Last edited by Lion El Jason; 08-09-2011 at 11:39.
Dark Eldar: Play as usual, Take out transports and move away from the infantry. Once they lose all their fast transports focus fire onto a squad at a time, nearest first (Don't take account of what they are, if they assault you you lose the game) every time. Kill it and move on.
Its not easy, I beat DE in the final round top table of a recent tournament but its basically "If your turn 1&2 shooting goes well and you can take out transports of the most dangerous units first you win, if not you lose" and there isn't much we can do to change that.
Using LRCs and shooty DW, in theory GK would be another due to the amount of firepower they can bring at 24". If they remember the melta henchmen of course.There are some games that pure DeathWing can't win. That's one of them. If you're playing an army with very limited options, then you need to accept that.
I think the thing to remember with purist DW is that you're not going to win by 'destroying' your (good) opponent. You're going to win by playing the mission and being more survivable.
For those reasons I keep meaning to try out a mix of Godhammers and CML squads. After all there's not at lot that can deal with Raiders and Terminators at range.
Most Gk forces I see struggle with LRs except for a few, easy to kill units.
Str 7 rending aren't great. I have won by not disembarking troops at all at 2k until late game to rush for objectives.
Its a bit boring, I wouldn't reccommend doing it a lot but it is an option.
Lion - good to see you back old boy! (I see you're playing a bit of Warmachine nowadays - yes, I am stalking you!)
On the squad set up, I've changed my mind to now agree with getting rid of sarge by upgrading the THSS to him. I realise he's the bullet magnet that you don't need to think about dying, but I've never thought "damn I wish I had a powersword still alive", whereas many times I have thought "damn I wish I had another powerfist".
On flamers, I used to think as you do - 5pts, what's the harm - then I tried to remember the last time I fired it. I don't think I have for at least 2 years...
The sarge with the power sword is a great bullet eater if you lose your first thunder hammer. Personally. I'd rather have the extra 3++. 4 wound groups in 5 models is enough, though I do see your point lion. And as RT said, it's rare I want the extra i4 attacks. It's one of the reasons I swapped my lightening claws in my command squad out for thss in my command squad. Footslogging means you need that survivability.
Eric, a very enjoyable read now I've got to it. I'm not the most cpnversant with doublewing, but it looks like good advice to me.
Terminator load outs vary between you and me though. You advocate putting the CML on a THSS, whereas as I put it on a SBPF.
The reason I do it my way is that the THSS are bullet catchers, I don't want to risk a 'useful ranged' model in that role. Am I doing it wrong?
You're evil RT, your post has made me want to wheel out my Raiders again. Must concentrate and finish my BA jumpers !