Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

[TheDoctor]

too many bad matchups for it to be considered viable;
- mech guard with lots of templates. foot guard.
- blood angels mech spam
- grey knights. even without psychic powers, they cut footdar to ribbons before footdar are in range
- tyranids. fast moving little gribblies tear your troops to bits. Big gribblies smile at wraithlords
- any light vehicle spam. footdar don't tend to pack the guns to put them all down
- deathwing. you don't beat us in combat. we frag you to death.
- dark eldar. hit harder. move the same speed but can assault out of their (more numerous) transports. poisoned weapons laugh at wraithlords.
- orks. get into combat. you die. killing 3 battlewagons with cover saves using bs3 brightlances?

the player makes the list, so a good player will make footdar work for most of the time, but when you come up against people who know what they're doing and have a solid list, footdar should fail.

Shhhhhhh.... I reject your reality and substitute my own.

I did fight blood angels mech spam to a complete draw.
I beat an ork player with combination battlewagons/kanwall/horde, even after the mission screwed me over 1st turn. (It was basically like Imhotep's lightning thing, first turn killed 4/7 of my guardian jetbikes, they ran off the board, and then wrecked a vyper squadron)

Though I will agree with your deathwing assesment. Everytime I've played my deathwing vs my friends footdar, it's not even really a challenge. So many missiles, and the one volley of melta fire from my ravenwing make short work of wraithlords and avatars. Once in combat, my terminators love me some guardians, and if he brings seer council, then I put 3 squads of terminators into combat. Really the only thing that worries me when I face footdar are harlequins, and I usually send in my command squad with belial in front, to soak up the amount of wounds they can put out.

Though I will admit, I mostly play footdar for the challenge or when I'm facing a newer or less experienced player.

[Royals]

With the rumors of a new Dark Angels Codex, I really hope that my list won't have to change must. I would really like to keep it all Dreadnoughts and Terminators. What would really make me happy is if Dreadnoughts had the ability to Deep Strike outside of using a Drop Pod. I would also like a heavy support walker or some other non-Landraider heavy support option that is specific to Deathwing.

[Kelanen]

I really think that I may have been a bit too concerned with the horde army part.

For a number of reasons hordes have long been dead on the competitive scene - I won't say they don't exist, but if we're excluding IG (barring true infantry horde) from the equation then real hordes are ~5% of the metagame, and really not worth worrying about. Sure, occasionally you run into one, and it's as well to have considered how you'll handle it - but don't bother building for that eventuality.

It may change in 6th, but it's been that way since pretty early 5th. Now if you drop from the competitive scene to a more casual club/shop scene you'll see a lot more - Nids and Orks in particular, but even then they are not that prevalent.

[ErictheGreen]

For a number of reasons hordes have long been dead on the competitive scene - I won't say they don't exist, but if we're excluding IG (barring true infantry horde) from the equation then real hordes are ~5% of the metagame, and really not worth worrying about. Sure, occasionally you run into one, and it's as well to have considered how you'll handle it - but don't bother building for that eventuality.

It may change in 6th, but it's been that way since pretty early 5th. Now if you drop from the competitive scene to a more casual club/shop scene you'll see a lot more - Nids and Orks in particular, but even then they are not that prevalent.

QFT.

Even in the casual stores, the horde armies you see won't be the 180 orc horde of doom or the 250 guardsmen bristling with heavy and special weapons, because at the casual level people take "less optimal" units.

@TheDoc: don't get me wrong, it pains me to diss eldar because I was an eldar boy for years. Played pretty much every variant of eldar list - footdar, serpant spam, wraithwall and my personal favourite - the saim hann jetbike army (council, jetbikes, vypers). The prevalence of psychic hoods and cheapness of mech just killed them for me. I don't see me going back to them even with a shiny new codex either.

@Royals: if we get a codex (and at the moment it's a big if), we will likely become more divergent, so a dreadnought option, a specialist terminator and biker squad, maybe a couple of specialist fire support vehicles. and useful tactical marines.

I still see little evidence for a stand alone DA codex at the moment. I'm still hedging my bets on a unified marine codex with Belial and Sammael unlocking the deathraven (belial replaces combat tactics with...fearless? sammael with scout), azrael replacing comabt tactics with *something* (maybe stubborn) and Ezekiel popping up with some suitable dark and dastardly powers.

[FraustyTheSnowman]

Not that I don't understand this is anything but anecdotal, but in my hometown there are a fair number of horde and horde-like armies. We have one dedicated all infantry orc army (battle of blackreach made getting scores and scores of orc boys pretty easy), with another orc player who does throw in the occassional vehicle but still has ALOTA guys on the table...two nid players, one of which loves gaunts, and both of which really like stealers (brought to you by battle of mccrage)...and most of the guard armies in the area are infantry heavy. They're definitely not the pinicle of competiveness, but as I build my own deathwing army, it's something I have to keep in mind.

[ErictheGreen]

Not that I don't understand this is anything but anecdotal, but in my hometown there are a fair number of horde and horde-like armies. We have one dedicated all infantry orc army (battle of blackreach made getting scores and scores of orc boys pretty easy), with another orc player who does throw in the occassional vehicle but still has ALOTA guys on the table...two nid players, one of which loves gaunts, and both of which really like stealers (brought to you by battle of mccrage)...and most of the guard armies in the area are infantry heavy. They're definitely not the pinicle of competiveness, but as I build my own deathwing army, it's something I have to keep in mind.

and so the argument for storm bolters continues!

hordes are an uphill battle even if you go all storm bolter. there's just too many bodies. You win these games by deployment, kiting and using their mass to your advantage.

[EDIT] as a personal aside:



gotta love chessex.

[TheDoctor]

@Eric
Omg... I need these.

And to be honest, whatever happens with our codex, even if we get folded into the regular marine dex, all I want for Christmas are useful Librarians.

@Frausty
In horde armies, there are just too many bodies for stormbolters to handle, but all you need to do is to keep whittling them down. I usually deploy all my stuff halfway between a table edge and the middle of the board. It gives me some room to kite, and I only have to concentrate on one side of the army.
Although, if you have to play objectives against them... Good luck...


gotta love chessex.[/QUOTE]

[ErictheGreen]

@Eric
Omg... I need these.

I ordered 26 which came out to $0.75 per dice. With postage, it's come out to just over the price of a tactical squad.

Have to thank gravedigger for his help. He has some custom dice on this thread that gave me the idea. the company is chessex. Email custom@chessex.com with that picture attached and he'll give you a price and colours. Very nice man.

And to be honest, whatever happens with our codex, even if we get folded into the regular marine dex, all I want for Christmas are useful Librarians.

Quoted. For. Truth.

@Frausty
In horde armies, there are just too many bodies for stormbolters to handle, but all you need to do is to keep whittling them down. I usually deploy all my stuff halfway between a table edge and the middle of the board. It gives me some room to kite, and I only have to concentrate on one side of the army.
Although, if you have to play objectives against them... Good luck...

pretty much. Being able to place 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 in your half of the board ain't bad either.

[samiens]

Although, of course, in multiple objective games you don't know where you will deploy (or deployment type) before objectives are placed.

the fact is storm bolters do so little against anything I really don't see why you would take them over THSS (except for a chainfist). Far more important is the cyclone's 2 blasts which you have anyway. Even against hirdes storm bolters are redundant
Sent from my 7 Mozart using Board Express

[FraustyTheSnowman]

Yeah...I didn't intend on bringing up an old horse to kick again...but storm bolters? Sorry, but no. I'm talking multiple maxed squads of boys. Assuming all storm bolters in a squad that's averaging what, three or four kills a shooting phase? I'm not going to say anyone is wrong, but this is not a realistic answer to me. This is why I'm planning on magnetizing my terminators though, as I'll try out storm bolters and see how it goes...but I think against the ork hord it's just going to be a matter of him having the rock to my paper, and me trying to just straight up play better than him.

[TheDoctor]

It's probably my old school training kicking in. Last time I faced down hordes were the good old days.

Though I agree we probably shouldn't bring up the stormbolter discussion again, I feel it's a matter of personal taste.

@Frausty
You have it pretty much already. Stormbolters or not, the key factor will be you outplaying him.

[Lion El Jason]

On the subject of the codex, a few years back GW made what they called a "cast iron promise" that all armies with codexes would always be supported with codexes.

Assuming they stick to this, DA are guaranteed a new codex eventually.

[pun3d]

I play my friend and his Orks all the time. I can tell you from my experience I will never leave home without storm bolters. 30 boys is scary enough. Whittle them down a bit and it's an easier pill to swallow. Plus once they get smart and start spreading out blast markets aren't much use.

[FraustyTheSnowman]

I'd like to say that shouldn't be a problem...out playing him that is...but the actual horde ork player is pretty crafty in his own way. The other ork player, the one who uses the occassional vehicle...much as I like him, he's not so crafty...

I remember hearing about that, as people were pretty sure dark eldar were going to join the squats in that great nid fecal pile in the sky...and not giving it much credit, but here we are, not only having seen a new de codex, but a new cron codex too! Not convinced it's going to be any time soon, but I'm confident dark angles'll be getting a new book.

[Russell's teapot]

I thought we would get a new book, but only as a precurser to the SM book (as it was last time) so that GW could test the water to not cock up the SM codex.

Given that the rumours seem to rule out a DA codex pre 6th ed & that SM are in the starter box, then it would seem strange to me that they wouldn't release the 'proper' SM codex as soon as possible post 6th ed hitting. If the box is DA v's Chaos, then DA in SM seems to be the best codex fit for GW to get the 'most' rules out there as soon as possible. That said, I don't hold much truck with GW doing the sensible thing...

[Royals]

I saw these Eldar on the GW site today and they really inspired me. I love this paint scheme and think it will look great with my Deathwing.


Also, two of my friends who play 40k expressed interest in getting some games together. One plays Vanilla Marines and the other plays Tau. How does Deathwing, in particular my all deepstriking/drop podding, army play and fare against those two armies?

[ErictheGreen]

Also, two of my friends who play 40k expressed interest in getting some games together. One plays Vanilla Marines and the other plays Tau. How does Deathwing, in particular my all deepstriking/drop podding, army play and fare against those two armies?

Vanilla marines can have a lot of different builds, so it's difficult to say.

Against bikes, you will need to focus fire on the command squad (if they have one). most importantly, castle up. do not let them split you up where they can use their mobility to their best advantage. against khan lists, castle, middle of the board.

vulkan lists tend to have a stack of melta, with only a couple of flamers. spread out after you deepstrike and you should be fine. your dreads will likely be toast though.

THSS can go toe to toe with you. pop their transport or make sure they're walking, then you can deal with them on your own terms.

everything else will be much of a muchness. ironclad dreads might cause you a problem unless you're packing chanfists.

against tau. you get into combat, you win. The canny tau player will be able to prevent this for as long as possible, but your deepstriking should greatly help here.

[Royals]

Vanilla marines can have a lot of different builds, so it's difficult to say.

Against bikes, you will need to focus fire on the command squad (if they have one). most importantly, castle up. do not let them split you up where they can use their mobility to their best advantage. against khan lists, castle, middle of the board.

vulkan lists tend to have a stack of melta, with only a couple of flamers. spread out after you deepstrike and you should be fine. your dreads will likely be toast though.

THSS can go toe to toe with you. pop their transport or make sure they're walking, then you can deal with them on your own terms.

everything else will be much of a muchness. ironclad dreads might cause you a problem unless you're packing chanfists.

against tau. you get into combat, you win. The canny tau player will be able to prevent this for as long as possible, but your deepstriking should greatly help here.

Thanks for the fast reply. With the Space Marine player, he doesn't use any special characters. He has a Captain, a Dreadnought, a DakkaPred, Land Speeder, a few bikes, scouts, and Tactical Squads. We'll probably play around 1000pts a piece. My force would look something like this.

Belial - SoS/SB
Terminator Squad - CML
Terminator Squad - CML
Dreadnought - AssCan, HF, DCCW, Drop Pod
Dreadnought - AssCan, HF, DCCW, Drop Pod

This would leave me with 40 floating points which I can use to make the Dreadnoughts venerable or purchase some Chain Fists. I'm inclined to make the Dreadnoughts venerable as that's more fun. I don't have my TH/SS Terminators assembled yet or else I would have one assault squad and one shooty squad. I would like to have my army painted before I play any other games though.

EDIT: Has anyone seen these?!?! http://www.shapeways.com/model/414990/

[Captain Collius]

make the 2 dreads ven at this level of points you are unlikely to need CF

[Necr0n]

Or you could use your points for an Apothecary for your Terminator Squad!

I don't know.. But deepstriking with shooty squads just doesn't work my head >.<
Good luck with your games mate!