No Auto/Las is the best in every army - it's the only thing you'll ever see SM using for example. There have been no Preds outside this config in top level play for several years now. There was zero case for Heavy Bolters once the defensive weapons rule changed against them.Originally Posted by ErictheGreen
Any codex where Auto/Las isn't the best, Preds are not the competitive option at all.
Kelanen
Really? I was under the impression that, with space marines getting dual melta in rhinos (thanks to the combiweapons dark angels conveniently forget are in the armoury), deepstriking HF/MM speeders and attack bike meltas running around, the auto/hb was a great cheap way of sticking an AV13 vehicle with some anti light vehicle and anti infantry potential on the board.
Assuming we are talking top level play/lists here then Attack Bikes are never used outside of a biker army (and that would normally be done using the Blood Angels codex).
The default SM army is Librarian, 3x AC/AC Dreads, 3x AC/LC Preds, 3x MM/HF Speeders (occasionally Typhoons), 2-3 Troops (being 0-1 Sniper Scouts, and the remainder 10 man Tacs with MM/Melta in Rhinos). The remainder will be made of some combination of TH/SS Terminators (possibly with a Land Raider), Sternguard and Vulkan.
Heavy Bolter adds mediocre light infantry capability, and poor anti-Light vehicle. The entire metagame is Mech, and 75-80% is MEQ, so the HB is pretty useless there, and it's terrible against vehicles too unless they are AV10 so speeders and DE. You already have a lot of firepower that hits AV10, and whilst more is welcome, you'd far rather have the lascannons that hit AV11, 12 and 13. You won't see DE outside of their transports (and the Wyches are invulnerable), and the HB does nowhere near enough damage to worry IG. The other 3 codexes in Tier 1 are all MEQ, and laugh at Heavy Bolters.
Heavy Bolters on Preds made sense back in the days when they were a defensive weapon for a highly mobile Predator, but that was 4 years ago. Hordes have been dead in 5th which is it's other role, so it's left there like a lemon.
Last edited by Kelanen; 18-04-2012 at 10:57.
Kelanen
I'm with ErictheGreen on this one,
AC/HB Preds are perfectly fine. Cheap Dakka and contributes towards 10+ vehicles at 1500pts for C:SM. 85pts (or 95pts for DA) for AV13, 2xS7 and 6xS5 is a steal.
At 1500pts for C:SM for example:-
Librarian w/ TDA, SS
5x TH/SS Terminators
2x RifleDreads
2 lots of 10x Tacticals w/Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino
3x MM/HF Speeder
3x AC/HB Preds
or DA at 1500pts
Belial
3 lots of 5xDW w/ TH/SS, CML
5 Tacs w/ Meltagun, Razor
3x Speeders (MM/HF or Typhoon)
3x AC/HB Preds
@Bartali
Except 1750 is the common Euro tourney size and 1850-2k is the common US one. We've got the points to afford the lascannons and we face lists with even more mech. I said it before but the only time I remember wanting HB were against non-mech lists but I was already crushing those anyway so it's simply overkill.
1500pts is still a commonly played points value (especially in shops here in the UK), and not everyone plays in tournaments.
The problem with AC/LC Preds in a DW list is - where do you fit in your anti light-infantry ? Mebbe my view is somewhat skewed as regularly play against Tyranid and Ork players, as well as Marines
Maybe that's it - maybe it's a 1500pts thing. 1500 is only played in GW shops here and I never play in that environment. I never play smaller than 1750 (I'm also UK btw) and at 1750 Dakka Preds are almost non-existent.
If you regularly play Nids and Orks then sure they probably have a role, but I've not fought either army in several years. They are non-entities on the tournament scene, and also the my current social scene and the previous one before I moved here. It's when you get to the really casual scene - new players learning to play at clubs and in GW that you see a lot more of those armies IME.
Kelanen
The lack of variety really is a sad state of affairs
My Chaos Project Log - ride the lightning!
We're probably going to disagree a bit here, but a 'good' list for me is one that can deal with everything. Whereas for you it's designed to deal with the three 'm's - meq, mech, msu I guess ?
It's nothing new, and in fact it's the natural state of things in any mature environment. It's common sense not to mention basic game theory as to why that happens.The lack of variety really is a sad state of affairs
The only way to prevent that in the internet age (ie: high communication, large sample sizes, collaborative design) is to shake up the metagame regularly. This is why CCG's have new sets every 3 months, block rotation every year etc, and why GW updates codexes and base game - it's not getting people to buy the new books that makes them money, it's getting people to get new or redesigned armies. Their reason why differs to your desire, but it's the same result. Because of other constraints GW's rotation is slower than a CCG, but it's still there.
Actually I have no problem with a static metagame. If you want a dynamic one though, you have to accept that stuff gets obsolete regularly, and then people will complain about that instead.
Close: It's the list with the highest probability of taking 1st place after taking into account the commonality weightings of all the opposing armies.
In the current metagame, that would be the 3 M's as you put it, come 6th it could be something else once the dust settles.
Last edited by Kelanen; 19-04-2012 at 00:23.
Kelanen
i was a TLLC/HB loyalist til I ran AC/LC preds. they are just better. plus av 14 is not that common what really has it: Land Raiders, Leman Russ', Monoliths, battlewagons. In my meta i only see lemans and battlewagons both which i shoot in the side or deep strike behind.
AC/HB is most useful against horde but not really anything else.
Nice post droma. I agree with your conclusion (sent from my theoryseat)
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
Oh yeah.
while I'm in agreement that hammer deathwing, cyclones, predators, typhoons is probably the optimal build.... I still can't bring myself to use predators.
It just...feels off for me using a non-wing unit. Doesn't quite suite my play style either.
I've put my LRCs back in and running a relatively balanced semi-aggressive list:
Squad 1: Belial(TLC) + 3 x THSS, 2 x TLC + Apoth
Squad 2: 2 x THSS, 3 x TLC + Banner
Squad 3: 2 x THSS, CF/SB, PF/SB, PF/SB/Cyclone
Squad 4: 2 x THSS, CF/SB, PF/SB, PF/SB/Cyclone
LRC + Extra armor
LRC + Extra armor
Land speeder typhoon
Land speeder typhoon
Land speeder typhoon
total : 1850
@ravenwing
It's fine for casual but just not enough boots on the ground for objective games and not enough guns for tank popping.
Not directed at you or your list raven but I'm not sure why we're even giving list feedback or writing lists when we already know what the optimum for a given points value is. It just seems pointless. Either you're running the tourney list or you're not and if you've been keeping up with this thread you know that going in. At that point it's just a matter of asking yourself "Am I playing in a tournament?" If yes bring competitive list, if no bring w/e the hell I want because it doesn't matter.
When someone feels like discussing strategy/tactics/deployment/matchups let me know because I'm done talking lists until we get a new book.
I'm curious if anyone has ever considered running vindicators with their Deathwing. It's a pretty versatile tank, provides anti-horde, anti-paladin, board control and fills holes in the Deathwing army rather than providing more of the same (Auto/Las predator).
It's called seigewing. No, it's not very good. All the downsides of vindis with no ability to reduce them. They also synergise pretty badly, as well as being points expensive.
I think droma has the right idea...
Don't confuse toy soldiers and real life.
@Droma
True true.
Well I'll just look forward to this thread exploding again in a couple months.
One of the Scottish etc guys is taking vindicators alongside 3 typhoons. Il be interested to see how he does.
Droma, given my issues with dwa, at what point do you deep strike?
Very rarely. Normally I'm exploiting a bad deployment by my opponent. Like my opponent deploys in a refused flank with a non-mobile army during an objective game. If you're doing a strictly kill point mission though I never DWA I'd rather have all the missiles on the board turn 1.
It's unfortunate that we DWA using normal deep strike rules. If we had rules similar to drop pod assault or better access to teleport homers I can see DWA more often/aggressively. As the rule is currently it is almost always better to start on the board. We aren't very mobile so the general strategy during object games is to figure out which ones you're going for at the start of the game and trust to armor/hammers/missiles to get you there alive and keep it uncontested. I've used it effectively before though. One tournament game was kill points/table quarters/get a scoring unit in the enemies deployment zone and pitched battle deployment. He was running a purifier list and deployed refused flank. I mirrored him and DWA assaulted with 3 squads in reserved. So I dropped two squads into his deployment zone as far away from where he deployed as I could and just lobbed missiles at him all game. The 3rd squad I put on the far side of my deployment zone when I saw he was trying to get a 5 man purifier squad in a razorback into my deployment zone. They landed and destroyed the razorback so it turned into a footslogging gunfight if he wanted to claim that objective.
Last edited by Droma; 22-04-2012 at 23:04.
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