Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

[the-skylord]

Also consider giving everything HK rockets - one shot S8 AP3, unlimited range. Possibility?

I think the HK might be seen more often when facing the bugs. Would work well against the medium sized ones.

[Toe Cutter]

Hiya - played nids tonight. My list was russell teapots list (three shooty squads with chainfists, two ass cannons, heavy flamer, two crusaders, belial and a chaplain).

His was (roughly)

Hive tyrant with two tyrant guard
carnifex
2 venomthropes
2 zoanthropes
1 mawloc
two largish broods of hormagaunts
one largish brood of termagaunts
one largish brood of gargoyles.

We played table quarters and kill points.

We got to four turns each before he had to pack up to leave and I was leading by four kill points to two at the end of this. Would probably still have led at the end of five turns. Would have been in difficulties if it had gone on to six or seven turns.

Essentially what I did was park the raiders in a bottle neck in the scenery which physically prevented the tyranid onslaught from getting multiple assaults in on my units.

What I learnt:

Mawlocs aren't all that. Stay in your raiders if you can and stay in cover if you can't. Its epic fail in combat and you can gang up on it and chin it without any problems after it comes up. It will kill a few terminators when it comes up but spread out in cover and you'll minimise it nicely.

Keep your units clumped together so they will be able to gang up on monstrous creatures. Spread out is isolated is pinned in combat with the small bugs is dead.

Zoanthropes are all that. Really quite good at shooting up raiders and really quite good at staying alive with their 3++ It hurts me to admit it but I think a god hammer might be handy as a second raider to deal a bit more of the instant death goodness on the mid range bugs.

Shot up his carnifex fairly easily in one turn. Didn't help my raiders that much unfortunately - one got ripped up by zoanthropes and one got hit by a lucky round of combat by his tyrant (hit four times and penetrated four times - apparently 8+ is quite easy to get on two dice, who'd have thought it).

Avoid combat with the tyrant - it wont end well for you. The other bloke at the store who's currently playing deathwing played the same nid list before me and came rather unstuck. His assault squad plus belial and chaplain got nommed in short order by the tyrant and guards. Lash wipping and leaching did them no favours at all.

Venomthropes are a pain in the bum - large broods of gribblies that extend back towards the venomthrope ensure that the whole brood gets a cover save. Didn't really bother attempting to shoot at the gribblies much though so not a huge problem.

If you're going to ground pound (or if some inconsiderate sod has broken your wheels/treads) then do so in cover. Hormagaunts can be given initiative five apparently which is ever so impressive. Particularly when its being completely wasted trying to dig you out of cover. Sticking my two I5 characters out in front of a line unit proved handy in this situation as I managed to wipe a load of gaunts before they could even attack back cos they were sat in cover.

In conclusion:

Force the gribblies to run around your raiders (dead or alive) to get at your squads.
Consider lascannons for instagibbing zoanthropes - they will play merry hell with your raiders if you don't take them into account
Hope the tyrant hasn't had weetabix for his breakfast prior to interviewing the hull of your raiders
Even six wound gribblies can be done in one turn if you gang up on it where possible.
Stay in cover.
Don't seperate your squads (same old mantra)
Stay in cover.

EDIT:

Having given the game a bit more thought I played a little bit more defensively than I needed to. I blame my opponent - when I was bringing my stuff across to the table his opening gambit was something to the effect of 'now to wipe out the second half of the first company'. He was having a bit of a foot in mouth evening generally so he didn't mean anything by it but I was determined not to get beaten even if it meant tearing up bits of terrain to stack between his army and mine (stubborn terrain - dark angel special rule - it would appear the angels suit my temperament)

By the start of my turn four my two wrecked raiders were physically blocking the tyrant and guard and the zoanthropes from getting at my three squads. The gargoyles had flanked me and were within assault range while the termagaunts were the wrong side of the raiders but may have been able to make it into assault in their turn five (can all gaunts fleet and assault?). The mawloc was looking a bit sheepish staring down the barrels of my three squads (all the hormagaunts were dead).

I had Belial and Chaplain unwounded. One undamaged squad (ass cannon), one squad with three or four left (ass cannon) and a solitary heavy flamer left from the third squad.

What I did was assault everything into Mr Mawloc and chinned him before I even got to the powerfists (yoink).

In hindsight I could have done this with just the main squad backed up by Belial and Chaplain. This would have left me the two remnant squads to deal with the gargoyles so that the only thing sure to be assaulting me the following turn would be the termagaunts then I'd have had a turn to try and deal with the tyrant and guard (maybe). Irritating really as the gargoyles were set up so that I could have got a really sweet flmaer shot of about ten of them (and Messers venomthropes couldn't have done a thing about it) prior to assault so I could have one turned them.

Meh - you live and learn.

PS - where is Russells Teapot? Haven't seen him around for ages. He's not buried himself under the tome that is 'Deathwing Tactica' has he?

[m_r_parker]

Yeah, the Zoanthropes are ridiculously good at the moment. As well as having arguably the best anti Land Raider weapons in the game, they are also more durable than you would expect with the 3+ Invulnerable save. Instant Deathing seems to be the way to go with the 40mm bugs, and either a standard pattern Land Raider or a Mortis Dreadnought with Lascannons would be the way to go (Providing your opponent doesn't throw a fit at Forgeworld rules). I still have a passion to take a Daemonhunters Inquisitor with Mystic Retinue and a squad of Grey Knight Terminators with Psycannons - Psychic Hoods block their shooting, mystics allow you to shoot them before they can, and Psycannons ignore their saves and wound on 2's.

[the-skylord]

Toe Cutter: Thanks for the that break down. Its certainly given me something to think about.

[m_r_parker]

I think the HK might be seen more often when facing the bugs. Would work well against the medium sized ones.

The one problem I have with the Hunter Killer is that it's quite pricey for a single shot weapon. It has the potential to be an early bonus, especially if you have them en-masse, but I wouldn't be buying them unless I had nothing else to spend the points on.

Certainly they're more viable now, close to borderline in this scenario. I remain yet to be convinced.

[Toe Cutter]

Oh one more thing I remembered from the other blokes game last night and reading stuff on here.

Carnifexes can have plasma cannon equivalent now as well (bioplasma). I didn't find out about it cos I gibbed him second turn before he could do anything (I'm sorry but something that says it has 'scything talons','crushing claws' and a base strength of 9 is getting nowhere near my raiders - I've got the paint work to think of after all).

Essentially carnifexes die with extreme prejudice either before or after zoanthropes based on range and pods. Mmm lascannon mortis mmm.

No worries Sky-lord. Ranting about my game on here helps me sort out what I'm doing wrong with my army. Its a pretty steep learning curve and a gross culture shock from my guard army of the old codex so I need all the help I can get.

[Gen.Steiner]

TLLC Mortis dreads sound like a fairly cheap and reliable option to kill big gribblies dead very quickly, actually.

[m_r_parker]

I think over the weekend I will be looking at generating a template 'Nid list designed to take out Termie Lists (Not Deathwing specific per-se, but more of a Marines with TH/SS Termies in Raiders), and see if I can come up with some example Deathwing lists to counter this. I'll also vary them across a range of different "Purities", so that Forgeworld and =][= options can be included if people want.

It's a shame that such a list is almost guarenteed to be completely different from the regular RT list that is common-place now, but I think this will be a solitary exception.

[the-skylord]

I think over the weekend I will be looking at generating a template 'Nid list designed to take out Termie Lists (Not Deathwing specific per-se, but more of a Marines with TH/SS Termies in Raiders), and see if I can come up with some example Deathwing lists to counter this. I'll also vary them across a range of different "Purities", so that Forgeworld and =][= options can be included if people want.

It's a shame that such a list is almost guarenteed to be completely different from the regular RT list that is common-place now, but I think this will be a solitary exception.

Good luck with this, it will be interesting to see the results.

[Lion El Jason]

Especially for Zoanthropes, I'd advise against going for Instant Death.
You'll kill many more big gribblies with a crusaders bolters than with 2 TLLCs.

Only the tyrant and up from there need the big guns and for a 3++ save lots of wounds is better than one big one.

[grave digger]

I like reading your battle reports vs. the new bugs and speculation on what you need to defeat them is great reading as well but in the end I'll stick to the Mantra. It's worked well for me vs. every enemy I've encountered over the years. I may not have won every game but I've won more than lost and tied a fair few as well.

I, like many of our brothers, play an all comers list. I've never changed it up to fight this opponent or that opponent. Deathwing is my main tournament list and because of that I have to be ready to handle any foe with what I have not what I wish I had.

Please keep posting your ideas and fights so that I can become better informed for when I have to face these gribblies on the battlefield again.

Diggs

[Lion El Jason]

Funnily enough I may be able to post a report soon... My 'nids vs someone elses Deathwing!

Its a nice change, first to be playing an army GW put some effort into and also to face a DW list... Most people around here avoided Pure Deathwing, possibly because of me.

[grave digger]

That should be an interesting game. I look forward to your report and thoughts. Of course, you playing vs. a Deathwing should give you more of an edge than using a new shiny Codex.

I remember playing vs. a Ravenwing army with my Deathwing and trouncing him soundly. I did the same thing with my Orks vs. a Deathwing army just before the current edition of 40K. It's odd facing yourself across the table and knowing how to dismantle the army because of that.

Diggs

[Red Beard]

What is Russells Teapot's list? I hear a number of people use it but I havent seen it.

I personally run the "siege wing" and enjoy it. (26 termies and 3 vindis in 1850) However, I have been itching to buy a couple of landraiders.

Can anyone point me in the right direction. Thanks!

[the-skylord]

RT's list:

Belial

Chaplain

3 shooty squads, 2 with assult cannons, 1 with heavy flammer

2 LRCs

and that should be 1500pts.

[aekold666]

Another thought may be to tarpit swarms of gaunts with dreadnoughts. If the swarm if big enought they have to surround the dreadnought completely, leaving no room for big bug to get to out dreadnought. The dread will be tied in combat for most of the game, but you keep the huge amount of shots/attacks away from out terminators.

Another thought is to gang op three dreads with CCW on a single carnifex. Striking before the fex you should be able to kill him before het gets to swing. It gets even better when you factor in the pre-assault shooting at the fex with whatever weapon you have ginven your dread.

Just some random thoughts that popped into my head.

[cowie165]

Just some random thoughts that popped into my head.

Further random thoughts:

Carnifexes will probably be less common nowadays given their points hike.

An AC/DCCW(HF) dread will dish out much more punishment by shooting to support your DW, vice CCing the swarm. AC+HF should kill 5-6 gaunts per turn (plucking here, mental mathhammer), whereas in CC you're only looking at 1-2 per turn. The other guy would probably be very happy with you in CC with his gaunts because then your AC isn't shooting up his warriors and genestealers.

Standard anti-swarm is to sit tight in your LRC mobile-bunkers and thin the herd, right?

[aekold666]

Further random thoughts:

I see what you mean. Still I would prefer my dread in closecombat with gaunts instead of my terminators. So given the choice I would assault the gaunts with the dread to prevent the gaunts from assaulting my terminators. I guess it is situational.

I think I have to get me some more landraiders.

[Toe Cutter]

Or put your squads in raiders so the small bugs can't tie you down. Assault on your terms. Preferably after clearing a load of bugs out with a heavy flamer.

For units without the benefit of a raider, keep them in cover so that if they have to be stuck in combat they get to attack either first or at the same time - most nids don't have frag grenade equivalents.

[m_r_parker]

Still I would prefer my dread in closecombat with gaunts instead of my terminators. So given the choice I would assault the gaunts with the dread to prevent the gaunts from assaulting my terminators.

You're assuming that you'll be doing the assaulting. For me, this is exactly the use for Gargoyles. They're quick enough to get across the board before getting shot up too badly, and then tie up a Dread for a few rounds of combat. 90pts for a brood of 15, that then goes and ties up a 125pt-190pt Dreadnought for the majority of a game - sounds like a good deal to me. By the time the Dread is free of this unit, the rest of the swarm is on you and already starting to tear up your units.