Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

[magicmonkey]

well my cc squad is 2lc's, 2 pfsb and a pfhf. but it has chaplain,banner and belial. in a crusader. it takes on 30 man ork mobs and wins. in 1 turn.

[Lion El Jason]

If you think you need a second Power Fist (I never thought I needed it, just make the one you have a Chain Fist and you're covered for tanks and toughness) I'd just go for another PF/SB.
I think you'll get more use out of the SB than TH and you can buy a second chain fist (Chain fists are where it's at) if you have the points.

[scdarkangel]

Hello everyone, after much reading and lurking I have built a 1500pt pure Deathwing army.

I am a model builder more than a player but wanted to build this army to get some games in with.

I have played them once and it was tough on me as it was against Mech. Guard. with lots of big templates and lascannon and rending sniper spam .
I lost meltas and assault cannons on my LRCs in the first turn. My assault squad was able to assault, killed everything and then took a ranged weapon pounding in the next turn.

I am looking to expand from 1500 to 1850 and then 2000.

I would like to add some ranged AT, and have started to build a Forgeworld Dred and Dred drop pod, but I think it might be better to add a Godhammer.

My current 1500pt

Belail with claws

Term Chap.

Assault Term Squad
4xTLc+1HF CF
all above in LRC

Term. Squad
Sarg. PW SB
2 PF SB
1 AC PF
1 SB CF
in LRC

Term. Squad
Sarg. PW SB
2 PF SB
1 AC PF
1 SB CF

I would very much like to know the best way to go up to 1850

and then to 2000.

Thanks

John

[KaldCB]

I agree that in most situations a SB/PF will do the same job as a TH/SS but i feel that a single SS will never win you a game, but a TH/SS have done that for me when it held up a daemon prince with the stunned result so that i killed it the next cc phase instead of dying myself.

A TH/SS "can" make a difference versus a single storm bolter will never make a difference.

(Note that a full squad or several squads with storm bolter's is another thing entirely )

[Lion El Jason]

Yeah, I can see that point, the main reason to take a SB is to have a CF. You come up against more vehicles than you do monsters with I > 4.

As I say though, 4x LC and 1 x CF is where its at. After too many games to remember playing all assault LR lists I found I was never short of S8 hits and remember LCs can also kill monsters with T up to 7. More than once I have been charged by a fex and killed it before its attacks with Str 4 rerolling to wound. It may need 6s but with re rolls its not too hard to rack up a decent wound total with 3 attacks each. Its more difficult when you're up against an Inv save...

[magicmonkey]

combine lc's with chapter banner and they kill many things fast and hard.

[Lion El Jason]

combine lc's with chapter banner and they kill many things fast and hard.

And there in lies the problem, and the reason why I changed to shooty LR Deathwing.

To make it work you need to assault and engage 3-4 units at once. You need to cause casualties on all of them to prevent too many retaliation attacks and also have them not run away. If you charge and are left out in the open you lose the unit for the benefit of killing what you charged (Which may well cost less than the terminators) so remaining in combat and winning in the enemy turn is essential.

Now if you have the banner, 4xLCs, CF, Belial with TLC and a character (Chaplain lets say) all out of a crusader then you will kill everything you assault. Literally nothing survives it and then you lose the whole squad to shooting (Medic and librarian power or not, you'll lose them).

Also if you are against vanilla marines or anything with combat tactics then you lose that game regardless. Any survivors of whatever you assault can feel free to run away, knowing that terminators cant catch them and leaving the deathwing dead in the return fire.

[Spamo321]

And this is why I changed my style of play to shooty rather than combat. You charge a few disposable units then get mullered by return fire when your butt is hanging in the wind after enemy ran away/died.

Shooty deathwing also takes advantage of more of the different "phases" in the player turn. By this I mean you can move, shoot and assault with shooty squads. Whereas with cc squads you can only move and assault (unless you add in a special weapon giving you limited shooting).

I feel that by taking cc squads you are effectively giving yourself another handicap by removing 1/3 of your game turn. It is far better to take a set of LCs in a shooting squad rather than have 1 or more dedicated combat squads. Don't get me wrong, everyone is free to play their army as they wish but I just think with an already handicapped army why make it even more difficult for yourself?

To put it simply, I think cc squads are like buying a book but then only reading the beginning and the end.

[magicmonkey]

shooting is better, but a lrc with banner,belial,chaplian and a combat squad is fun against an enemy combat army like orks or nids. charge in and wipe many thing and use the lrc to block other assualts and shoot nearby units abit.

[fwacho]

I agree that in most situations a SB/PF will do the same job as a TH/SS but i feel that a single SS will never win you a game, but a TH/SS have done that for me when it held up a daemon prince with the stunned result so that i killed it the next cc phase instead of dying myself.

A TH/SS "can" make a difference versus a single storm bolter will never make a difference.

(Note that a full squad or several squads with storm bolter's is another thing entirely )

I won a tourney using a deathwing list
--5X term squads (2 with TH/SS double LC combos, the rest with storm bolters heavy flamer chainfist on two squads, command squad carried storm bolters)
--1 dread in drop pod with multi melta/ heavy flamer
-- one squad of 6 bikers and attack bike to help drops
--belial

The storm bolters were huge for me. (2 assault cannons mixed in too) I did enough damage that it forced enemies to me in some cases. they also supply the firepower I needed to bring the sanguinor in one round of shooting.

Shooty termies give a lot more flexibility. When the cost of the storm shield goes up next edition the storm bolter will be king again.

[Lion El Jason]

I have to say my favouite ever carnifex kill was using an 4xLC 2xCF unit and I assaulted the fex and 2 gaunt units. I won combat by 13 and he failed no retreat saves and died.

[SabrX]

I'm done playing Deathwing. Currently auctioning off army off ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110634489978

I'm tired of losing to newer Space Marine armies. It's not fun playing against 3++ Storm Shields, FNP + Furious Charge Blood Angel Terminators, or Space Wolves Logan Wing that strikes first because their entire squad has Power Weapons! I'm tired of old Machine Spirit rules.

Anyways, peace my fellow brothers for now I've join the unforgiven.

[Russell's teapot]

I have played them once and it was tough on me as it was against Mech. Guard. with lots of big templates and lascannon and rending sniper spam .
I lost meltas and assault cannons on my LRCs in the first turn. My assault squad was able to assault, killed everything and then took a ranged weapon pounding in the next turn.

Hi John,

That's a really sexy army you've got there!

Errr, on the DW v's IG - that's a toughie. I'm not convinced that well put together IG list, played by a semi-competant general can be beaten by DeathWing. As you say, they have enough melta, enough long range fire saturation, and (with blob squads) are able to withstand a charge from a tooled up assault squad.

I wouldn't get too hung up about and concentrate on killing SPAZ MARINZ!!!1! Which is where we excel. Unless you only play one guy & he only uses IG...

I am looking to expand from 1500 to 1850 and then 2000.

I would like to add some ranged AT, and have started to build a Forgeworld Dred and Dred drop pod, but I think it might be better to add a Godhammer.

My current 1500pt

Belail with claws

Term Chap.

Assault Term Squad
4xTLc+1HF CF
all above in LRC

Term. Squad
Sarg. PW SB
2 PF SB
1 AC PF
1 SB CF
in LRC

Term. Squad
Sarg. PW SB
2 PF SB
1 AC PF
1 SB CF

I would very much like to know the best way to go up to 1850

and then to 2000.

Thanks

John

First things first - nice list. Many of us don't like mixing assault & shooting elements of DW army into a single list, but if it works for you, that's cool. I think some of my problem is that I've been blinded by your awesome models!

1850 is an odd number for DW, as we buy things in chunks of 250 points. To that end, to get to 1850 you need to either:

1) Go dreads
2) Drop the chappers

Neither of which is ideal, but personally, I'd drop the chappers (I've not got my codex on me, so this is a rough outline)

Belail - 130

Shooty squad - 250 (AC & CF)

Shooty Squad - 250 (AC & CF)

Shooty Squad - 245 (AC)

Shooty squad - 225 (HF & CF) - or your assault squad

LRC - 250

LRC - 250

Godhammer - 250

Total - 1850

That's a lot of stuff to kill at 1850! The 245 squad could be swapped out for a couple of dreads (I think - just), or you could run 2 x LR + another shooty squad instead.

But anyway, that's where I'd start & refine from there...

Good luck.

[Russell's teapot]

I feel that by taking cc squads you are effectively giving yourself another handicap by removing 1/3 of your game turn. It is far better to take a set of LCs in a shooting squad rather than have 1 or more dedicated combat squads. Don't get me wrong, everyone is free to play their army as they wish but I just think with an already handicapped army why make it even more difficult for yourself?

To put it simply, I think cc squads are like buying a book but then only reading the beginning and the end.

Double post - sorry!

Spamo, excellent analogy sir! I think you've nailed why I don't play assaulty.

[scdarkangel]

Thanks Russell,

Unfortunately I do play the same guy, and he is now building Wolfwing, the other guy I might play, plays vanilla Marines. If I get tired of loosing while learning my Deathiwing, I can play with my CSM Death Guard army, which I have enjoyed winning with, as they just don't want to die.

I don't mind the idea of dropping the Chaplin as the Assault squad is a bit overkill.

I have an extra squad of shooty Termies, and a Godhammer, and would welcome the long range Las.

I am going to build up a Dred and Drop pod also as I already have the Forgeworld models and they look cool, and might get to use the assault for the pod rules in my new Imperial armor book, I think I will get that Land Raider Achilles also, but mostly for fun.

I think I will have to try a more shooty army next time,

if so, how do you like to kit out Belail with a shooty team?

I will try that list at 1850, how do you play at 2k? 3 Raiders and all shooty squads?

Honestly, I don't really care if I win with the Deathwing.

Fighting against impossible odds, outnumbered and making the enemy pay dearly to win are the things that heroes are made of, and that's good enough for me.

John

[scdarkangel]

Oh, I also have a Libby and will try my next game swapping the Libby in for the Chap. at 1500, even though both my regular opponents tend to not use any Psychic powers at all.

John

[Russell's teapot]

Thanks Russell,

Unfortunately I do play the same guy, and he is now building Wolfwing, the other guy I might play, plays vanilla Marines. If I get tired of loosing while learning my Deathiwing, I can play with my CSM Death Guard army, which I have enjoyed winning with, as they just don't want to die.

As you state later, DeathWing is a state of mind... You'll rarely find a DeathWing player with a decent win/loss ratio, I know mine would be terrible if I could be bothered to count. That said, what DeathWing does do is make you think & make you work hard - playing DeathWing has made me a much better player with all the other armies I use!

The learning curve is incredibaly steep, and never plateaus in my experience - it just keeps going up

I have an extra squad of shooty Termies, and a Godhammer, and would welcome the long range Las.

The Godhammer is not optimal, but as a 3rd LR its range is very useful...

I am going to build up a Dred and Drop pod also as I already have the Forgeworld models and they look cool, and might get to use the assault for the pod rules in my new Imperial armor book, I think I will get that Land Raider Achilles also, but mostly for fun.

The Lucius pod is very good, in a DeathWing army, you'll find it's not as good as in SM armies, as we won't be able to get support there in time, but as a disruption tool it should work well. That said, I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't factor it pretty high on the cheeseometer, so be prepared to only use it a few times...

if so, how do you like to kit out Belail with a shooty team?

I always use the TLCs, the SOS is ok but not as good, the TH/SS is a waste of 130 points.

I will try that list at 1850, how do you play at 2k? 3 Raiders and all shooty squads?

I always play shooty. I expect that I'd add the chappers back in & add a chainfist to the squad without one (I think that points up right).

Fighting against impossible odds, outnumbered and making the enemy pay dearly to win are the things that heroes are made of, and that's good enough for me.

Some would say fools

EDIT - the choice between a Libby and a Chappers seems to be purely personal. I'd just play with both & see which you prefer. I prefer the chappers, most people seem to disagree

[cowie165]

Russell does your chaplain ever get to assault more than once? Just thinking out 'loud - if the librarian can absorb a wound each round he is working for you each turn. I've used a JP chappers () with my assault squad for a long time, and in 90% I manage only a single assault. I find the I5 and crozius is much more useful than the rerolls, and the librarian brings that along too.

[Russell's teapot]

Russell does your chaplain ever get to assault more than once? Just thinking out 'loud - if the librarian can absorb a wound each round he is working for you each turn. I've used a JP chappers () with my assault squad for a long time, and in 90% I manage only a single assault. I find the I5 and crozius is much more useful than the rerolls, and the librarian brings that along too.

Sometimes, but not everygame, I recon if I tallied it over all my games he & his squad get 1.5 charges per game (I've used the science of making stuff up to calculate that of course ). Then he provides the same buffs as the librarian (sans the hood that doesn't work because of Ld9).

The rerolls are awesome, absolutely awesome. Especially on PF where you fight after an opponent, where you can lose 2 models & still be as effective on the assault as with 5 terminators without the rerolls. And for assaulting fast vehicles which with 6's to hit can be (almost) reliably hit & downed, and against dreads where the chainfist is (almost) guaranteed a hit.

[Mugatu]

The way I see it, the Chap' allow you to maximise one more CC squad.

You could think of a list like "3 CC Squad + 3 LRC + Captain + Banner + the nice Chap" (That's around 1700 pts). And either have one or two REALLY strong CC squad, or spread your edges amongst the three of them.

Indeed, a Libby can save you a AP2 wound. But when he's running in a LR, he usually won't do much more than a Chaplain.

I personnaly usually run shooty DW (where a Libby shine), but want to try the assault version for quite some time now. Maybe I'll risk myself to paint a Chaplain.