Tactica: Deathwing 5th Edition

**Spamo321** · 10-01-2011, 10:33

I think you should take a chaplain or librarian based on what else is in the list. So a libby is a better choice with "foot sloggers" as he can use his force barrier. Whilst a chappy is better with a squad in LRC because they almost certain to get the charge allowing the awesome re-rolls. Personally I think that any sort of dedicated cc squad is overkill unless you plan to charge the opponents main cc unit (terminators, nobz etc). You should be able to wipe most units in 1 turn even with a shooty unit that has 1 pair of LC to help.*

If I were to go back to playing mech I would take a chaplain with a squad that looked something like: 1x sb/pw, 1x lc's, 1x ac/cf, 2x sb/pf. The unit still has good shooting capability and is rock hard in combat due to having a chaplain there. Then there's the lrc they cruise around in as well

*

Shooty units again only need to take an AC and CF, perhaps an apothecary if you feel the need, but I'd never put both him and libby in the same squad. It leaves the other squads too vulnerable. Rather*keep them fairly close just incase.

**Lion El Jason** · 10-01-2011, 17:17

The librarian is clearly better with footsloggers. But as we've mostly entered an edition where LRs are king I think the question is in a LR based list we'll have points left over and need a chappy or librarian. Which is best?

Its an odd one because I used to say chaplain for the assault (I used to play 3 LC units in 3 LRs) but with the greater need to stay in combat for 2 rounds the chaplain was actually getting my guys killed!

The chaplain has 3 wounds and a 4++ save. That can help with taking hits from things like plasma where its not going to insta-kill. A better chance of saving and also 2 ablative wounds really helps.
The Librarian has Force Barrier. Its basically a 2+ Inv save, I use it for lots of different attacks, including instant death but that's a bit of a gamble. Also watch out for Psychic Hoods!
For either of these I think its best to take the characters improved saves until you fail, you may need to save the character with the apothecary then.

Remember it doesn't matter if you end the game with 3 wounds left on a chaplain and Belial or 1 wound left on each, they are a resource like any other resource we have and if you keep 2 terminators in play by putting the wounds on them you are ahead.

Offensively the chaplain has a storm bolter (Or combi weapon) and so does the Librarian. The librarian has Hellfire: Probably the worst psychic power in the game. But it is a template weapon and you can use it like a flamer, combined in a squad with a heavy flamer it can clear out light infantry like nothing else. (Of course, a bad roll and they will get saves but then hellfire is just that bad.)
Really, a combi flamer does just as well... if only once.

In melee the librarian has a force weapon, its good for what it does. The chaplain has good combat ability and the re-rolls. The Re-Rolls make a terminator squad kill whatever they go up against. Nothing lives through that, not even TH&SS terminators from the vanilla codex or seer council with re-rolls on saves.
The downside to this is that, as mentioned, you kill everything and your squad is left in the open and about to die to enemy shooting. There is no way round that really this edition.

Now, I like the librarian for force barrier and, as bad as it is, hellfire. The librarian can separate from the unit, engage a different target and between a template and melee does enough damage.
The chaplain loses a lot of his worth if you separate him off to engage more targets and so I use the librarian more.
For the other point of view, the chaplain means there is no "Tough nut" opponent: A unit you have no way to crack, it is a safety net in that it means you do have the tools to kill anything an opponent can put on the table.

**Spamo321** · 10-01-2011, 23:59

Some good points made there LEJ. I agree that the libby is good for tying up smaller units like snipers etc. I used my chaplain like this when I played my mech army. Him and a drop-podding dread usually did quite well in that role. The trick, like you say, is to kill a couple when you charge then wipe them out in their turn. This stops you from getting shot up straight away. In my experience the chaplain would, more often than not, kill about 3-4 models (including shooting) then make the enemy run away as they lost by 2-3.

Overall I would say the libby is best in that particular role because he's able to put out a moderate amount of damage with shooting, is reasonable in assault, and (the most important part) you don't have to worry about powerfists etc so much due to force barrier power.

However, I haven't answered your question. Which is best in a LR based force?

Ironically I think the chaplain is best employed against hordes, where you need every attack to count to clear away the big squads of little guys (30 odd at a time). And to help land those all important blows that could stop that carnifex or nobs with powerklaws from tearing you a new one. I would probably put belial in the squad with banner in one LRC (you're going to want it if you know you're against 100+ models), and have the chaplain with another squad in another LRC. It should even out the killyness that way.

So I would use the libby vs pretty much anything else. (I'm not saying to tailor your list, just that the libby is probably a better generic choice.) Best way is probably to keep him separated from his squad. That way he can tackle smaller units whilst the squad goes for the tougher stuff. The cc squad, assuming you only swap the libby/chaplain, is good enough to take most things. If you run the libby I would have his squad with the banner then belial and his cc squad.

My opinion is to use the libby. I think he's a better all round solution and will ultimately stay alive for longer. His wargear and abilities means he should have a more noticable effect on the game than the chaplain.

**Russell's teapot** · 11-01-2011, 07:59

I'm going to disagree that killing a few enemies on our turn is preferable to killing as many as possible. And here's why:

1) Space Marines ATSKNF: They don't care if they only just lost combat. They lose, they are out of there. We can't chase them due to terminator armour, therefore you have another squad shooting at you, making the situation even worse than the one you're trying to prevent.

2) Large squads are prevalent: IG, Orks and Tyranids come in massive squads, which are to all intents and purposes immune to Ld checks. All not killing them does is give more rounds of combat to wear us down. Hit them hard first & take as many as you can.

3) Power fists: In smaller squads (say 5-7 man) the powerfist will swing if you don't kill them all & when it does, it'll take 2 terminators with it. Chappers ensures that he only gets to go once, not twice.

4) Dice: No matter how cunning your plan, the best way to beat any enemy, in any phase, in my experience is throw dice at them. So many that something is bound to fail an armour save. However, we all have bad dice rounds & the less your cunning plans are exposed to a bad round of dice rolling the better. This is part of why I see movement & range finding as so critical to DeathWing - it's the only part of the game where we can't be let down by dice.

Then we come to more reasons for the chaplain:

1) Monsterous creatures: Chaplain no like monsterous creatures, Chaplain smash!

2) AV14: Land Raiders will come to you, and they'll come fast. Can you take it out? Chaplain has a good effort with a reroll to hit chainfist...

3) TH&SS deathstar: And when that Land Raider comes into your lines, it's full of hammernators. Charge that & you won't know about it - chappers gives you mutually assured anihilation.

4) He's got a skull for a head: no need to say more

If you're worried about return fire there are things you can do to mitigate it:

1) Assault into/ around terrain: gain a cover save, huzzah!

2) Assault behind your tank: Land Raider drives forward & hides the target squad from the opponent, you get out, kill them all, then get back in your Raider, open a beer.

3) Multi-charge: Try to take out as many units as possible in one go. If it's dead, it can't kill you.

4) Full on assault: Get so many units into combat/into their lines that they have to choose what to kill, they can't kill it all... (actually they often can, but this is a bit of a last ditch, bottom clencher of a move)

Here endeth the sermon of 4. If you take nothing else from this, remember:
If the enemy are all dead, they can't kill you.
Leave any alive & they'll getcha...

**Mugatu** · 11-01-2011, 08:30

Originally Posted by Russell's teapot

4) He's got a skull for a head: no need to say more[/B]

Brother teapot, you made my day ! Thank you !

**the gribbly** · 11-01-2011, 14:09

Teapot you've just given all the reasons I need to play my recently painted interrogator chaplain, Thanks!

**Lion El Jason** · 11-01-2011, 15:41

Space marines: Combat tactics kills us in assault. There is nothing more deadly to DW than it. Its true that we may as well kill space marines rather than let them shoot us.

Large squads of dross troops that are immune to Ld tests (IG, 'nids, orks...) actually you don't need to kill them all. Remaining in combat is preferable over their turn and winning in their turn so you can assault again is the best outcome but killing just enough is as good as overkill. We will win the combat by lots and they will fail most of those saves from no retreat, wiping out the rest.

I'm pretty sure the librarian has the edge vs. monstrous creatures.

I'm not sure about vanilla hammernators. Obviously the chaplain will let you kill them better but I expect shooting them with hellfire (Make them take more saves!) will do better. 4x SB (+ one more at BS5 if you have a bad belial weapon combination), 2x template weapons should provoke enough saves that assaulting with Sgt, librarian and belial may be enough.
Hmmm... lets see: that lot should provoke around nine 2+ saves, maybe 2 deaths. Then assault, belial, sgt and librarian go first and cause ~six saves at 3++, maybe 2 deaths. 4 kills on a LR bourne unit is a good amount and will inflict few return casualties and will be mopped up by fists.*

Of course a chappy can have a combi plasma which also may do as well as hellfire but hellfire can hit more, forcing more saves (Even if they are 2+).

Of course the chaplain does have a skull head!

The ways to protect your investment are also good, I think creeping land raiders forward to get into a position where the LR can block LOS is something we all forget in our rush to get a 20" + assault moves.
With our use of crusaders we can assault into cover easily too.

*Rough numbers off top of my head.

**Russell's teapot** · 11-01-2011, 16:04