Multiple Assaulting

[Gorgrim]

Assaulting Multiple Units

Part 1.
Is it possible to assault two units if they are far apart? For example, a Termagant Brood (A) wants to assault a Tactical Squad (B) and an Assault Bike (C), both of which are within 6” of the Brood and thus both are a valid target for an assault (see picture here).

The confusion about the ability to assault both units in this situation arises from the wording of the assault steps on page 34, which are;
• The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.
• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.

The coherency rule in the first point is then reinforced again in the next section dealing with assaulting multiple units.

Therefore based on this it would be impossible to assault both units as pictured, because as soon as the second unit is assaulted the Termagant that moved would be out of coherency. Correct?

Part 2.
In the above situation assume the Assault Bike was next to the Tactical Squad and then both units were assaulted by the Termagant Brood, but after combat resolution there is only one Termagant remaining in base contact with the Tactical Squad. None of the Marines have been removed and the Termagant doesn’t Fall Back, so the Tactical Marines Pile In, surrounding the Termagant.

Now it is the Assault Bike’s turn to Pile In, but can’t because it can’t get into base contact with the Termagant. What happens to the Assault Bike? Is he still required to move 6” towards the Termagant, is he allowed to consolidate D6” or does he stand there until his next movement phase when he can move away because he is not engaged/locked in combat anymore?

Part 3.
Elsewhere in the same battle a Carnifex is completely surrounded by a Tactical Squad. The Tyranid player decides to assault with a Termagant Brood to help out. Can the Tactical Marines allocate their attacks to the Termagant Brood? The first bullet point on page 41 states;

• Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat…must attack that unit.

Does this indicate that the Marines have to spend another turn attacking the Carnifex, even though they would be more successful attacking the Termagants, and thus essentially giving the Termagants a free turn attacking the Tactical Squad without fear of retribution?

I’m looking for some help in ensuring I have the rules correct as it can be very confusing in the heat of a battle.

Thanks.

[mattjgilbert]

1. Correct
2. hmmm...need to think about that one.
3. They can attack the charging unit AFAIK.

[madden]

Part one: in the picture no only assult one unit as you said they would brake coherancy.
Part 2: if the bike is close enough so they don't brake coherancy then yes they are both attacked. unsure on the resolution, but i think the bike can move as it's not locked in combat.
Part 3:yes they can only attack the carni that turn.

[mattjgilbert]

3. I might have played that wrong yesterday then

[ScytheSwathe]

As i understand it..
1. it would be a hard situation to set up. each model in unit A would have to be moved to within coherency with another model which has already moved (except the first one :P). Meaning you could potentially bridge the gap if there are models which are unable to reach base-to-base with either unit, but can still move up within coherency. You could then move models into coherency with the 'bridge' model and which can assault the second unit. All this bearing in mind you have to move the nearest model first.
So not impossible, but would require alot of forethought to set up correctly.

2. Im honestly not sure, and i dont have the book to hand. Sorry.

3.Correct, you can keep your vulnerable assault units safe by counter charging in this way.

[precinctomega]

1. Unless you can retain coherency and follow all the rules for entering combat, you must attack only one unit. I struggle to think of any situation when assaulting both units might be possible in this case (obviously, it's easier if they're closer together as you allude to), but I know that players are an inventive and improbable bunch.

2. There's a degree of common sense that needs to be applied. However, I would observe that, if you pile in with the Attack Bike first then the Tactical Squad would still be able to pile in, too. Doing it the other way around to "free up" the Attack Bike to move elsewhere seems to be rather against the spirit - if not the letter - of the rules. The enemy unit has not been wiped out and therefore the Attack Bike should still be locked.

3. Yes, they have to attack the carnifex. That's the whole point of the rule that requires squads to attack only the unit(s) with which they are already engaged at the start of combat (otherwise there'd be no need for the rule!).

R.

[Charred Remains]

It sounds like that bike gets to move twice in this case.
That's interesting.

I struggle to think of any situation when assaulting both units might be possible in this case

Agree.
The geometry in this case is a weak example for the double assault.

I would observe that, if you pile in with the Attack Bike first then the Tactical Squad would still be able to pile in, too. Doing it the other way around to "free up" the Attack Bike to move elsewhere seems to be rather against the spirit - if not the letter - of the rules. The enemy unit has not been wiped out and therefore the Attack Bike should still be locked.

Respectfully, a strong disagree here.
Neither spirit nor letter are violated. Shrewd moves like this are the essence of expert gaming and fit the imagined scenario quite easily:

"We got him surrounded with no problem. Why don't you ride over to that hill and signal 'all clear' on this side".

[acme2468]

Wait a minute, What?
At the Start of the combat would be after the Termigants assaulted in, If you are counting the Start of the Combat from the first round between the Marines and the Carnifex then By your interpertation the Marines would never be able to swing at the Termagants.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I'm with acme2468 on this. More precise, I cannot even find that rule. The first bullet point on that page - which 'exact same page btw? 41? - in my book reads the exact opposite (translated): "Models that are in contact with more than one enemy unit at the start of the combat (before any one model attacks) are free top divide their attacks amongst these opponents."

Could anyone clear this up?

[EldarBishop]

1. correct

2. both the marines and the bike are/were involved in the combat, and as such must pile in to the gaunt that passed it's Ld test. It would definitely be easier to move the bike in first...

3. models can attack any unit in B2B, thus the marines which are in B2B with both the carnifex and the gaunts could choose to attack either (and attacking the gaunts would be a popular choice).

edit:
1. Upon reviewing the pic again, it would normally be impossible to do this. However, if it was a VERY large unit of gaunts it might be possible to follow the assaulting guidlines and still charge both. As all the extra gaunts unable to move into b2b with the marines could close the gap enough to allow the bike to be assaulted and maintain coherency... but as I said, this would be very rare indeed.

[Gorgrim]

The first bullet point on that page - which 'exact same page btw? 41?

You are correct, it is page 41 and I have corrected the Original Post.

At the Start of the combat would be after the Termigants assaulted in

This was the confusion my opponent and I had, when exactly is the start of combat? We assumed any models engaged before assault moves were made had to attack the original unit, those only locked were able to split their attacks if allowed.

3. models can attack any unit in B2B, thus the marines which are in B2B with both the carnifex and the gaunts could choose to attack either (and attacking the gaunts would be a popular choice).

If that is the case then what is the rule on page 41 referring to then?

It would definitely be easier to move the bike in first...

But, if someone wanted to free the Attack Bike, there is nothing stopping them from moving the Tactical Squad first, correct?

On page 40, last paragraph of the first column states, "When making Pile In moves the player whose turn it currently is moves first. If for some reason, his model's moves are insufficient to move into base contact with any enemy still involved in that fight, the player must still move them as close as possible to such enemies...If both unit's move would be insufficient...make consolidation moves instead"

This now begs another question. To me this would indicate that the player could move the Marines first and free the Attack Bike, who would then be required to move 6" towards the Termagants. After 'discovering' that the Attack Bike is no longer engaged/locked in combat it then gets an additional consolidation move. Mind you, the last word of that paragraph 'instead', seems to imply that you make the consolidation move rather than the 6" Pile In move, which just makes it all the more confusing. Does anybody have any ideas or suggestions on that point?

Thanks for the feedback.

[Coredump]

1) Incorrect. As Daddy Cool points out, if you are careful about assaulting, and placement, you can make it so that the 5th gaunt moved (picked randomly) can't get into base, so *all* you need to do is move it within 2" of another gaunt. Then gaunt #6 can assault the bike (assuming it will be within 2" of gaunt #5)

2) Yes, he would no longer be engaged, and would consolidate instead. The real question is if that is considered good or bad 'sportsmanship'; since you could have done the pile-in with the bike first. Some may consider it the spirit of the rules to move in the order that keeps all the units still engaged. Personally, I think you should, but probably wouldn't balk to hard if you didn't.

3)No.No.No. You can attack either brood. You left out the part where the rule defined what it meant by 'beginning of combat' which is (before any models attacked) It makes no sense otherwise. First of all, it means the termagants can't attack *at all*. (You have to define 'beginning of combat' the same.)

That's the whole point of the rule that requires squads to attack only the unit(s) with which they are already engaged at the start of combat (otherwise there'd be no need for the rule!).

The reason for that rule is for situations that change after the attacks have started.

My fex is in base with termies and scouts. My stealers assault the termies and kill some. the SM player removes the one in base with the fex. The fex is now only engaged with the scouts, but since he was engaged with both at the beginning, he can allocate attacks to both.

[insaniak]

(assuming it will be within 2" of gaunt #5)

And can't get within 2" of another engaged Gaunt.

[afshinbb]

4th editions explanations for this were much more clear. and accomplished same thing. it said after you engaged one model in primary squad you could then engage secondary squad as long as you kept coherancy.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

1. The sheer variety of geometric possibilities make it very difficult to categorically state that something is impossible. At <7", it's actually pretty easy, so long as at least two termagaunts can't reach B2B with the marines: one gaunt is in B2B with the marine closest to the bike, one gaunt is in 2" engagement of that, and a third gaunt is 2" from the previous and in B2B with the bike. That's 3 1" bases and two 2" gaps, for 7" total. Even at greater distances, if the assaulting unit starts spread out, it can usually hit just about everything in range by simple dint of the fact that the rear models can't reach engagement and so are free to go anywhere in coherency.

2. The rulebook talks about how rare this is supposed to be, but yeah, in the case of models getting surrounded it happens pretty easily. All you need to know is that any units which cannot pile in and reach B2B (for whatever reason!) drop out of combat and consolidate instead.

3. Engagements (i.e. which unit(s) each model can attack!) are set before the first initiative step and do not change between initiative steps. That's all, really.

[Coredump]

I don't see where that requirement is coming from. If it can get into base with the bike, that is all that is needed.

[insaniak]

I don't see where that requirement is coming from. If it can get into base with the bike, that is all that is needed.

Third bullet point in moving charging models (although I should have actually said 'in base contact' rather than 'engaged')

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Then gaunt #6 can assault the bike (assuming it will be within 2" of gaunt #5)

And can't get within 2" of another engaged Gaunt.

I don't see where that requirement is coming from. If it can get into base with the bike, that is all that is needed.

Third bullet point in moving charging models (although I should have actually said 'in base contact' rather than 'engaged')

What on earth are you talking about, Insaniak? The bike is an enemy model that isn't already in B2B. It amply satisfies the bullet point you've referenced.

[insaniak]

What on earth are you talking about, Insaniak?

No idea. Had a brain-fade, apparently.

[solkan]

I think the key to trying to assault multiple units that are spaced apart is to get members of the assaulting unit that are beyond their 6" or 12" assault range of the first unit and then have enough guys to bridge the gap (a guy for every 3" for guys on the 25mm bases) and then still have guys in range of the second unit. You'd want to move some guys in the front to assault the first unit, then move some of the out of range guys to bridge the gap, and then fill in the rest as desired. So, a five man tactical squad is going to have a hard time doing this, but a dozen guants or orcs shouldn't have a problem if they haven't been bunching up during the approach.

Those movement rules on page 34 constrain what each model can do when moving, not what order you move the models.