Tactica - Space Marines

[hush88]

With the Codex in hand, it is time to look at the possibilities of the Codex. There are already several discussions on about the possibilities of combining several Marine Special Characters, but it may be better serve if all discussions are located in one thread.

Things that i have noted and posted in the DA thread in discussion with my battle brothers there;
1. Unique Characters as you have mentioned, some are down right nutsy with their special capablities. However, in many instances, we can strike before they can in CC as most of them now operate at I4 instead of I5, and a few of them carrying PFs and THs will again allow us to strike first. Having orbital bombardment could be fun though.

2. HQs. There is some limitations as to how they can equipped their HQs, but most importantly, Rites of Battle is gone from most of them. Command squads are slightly superior to ours. Apothecary now gives FNP to the whole squad. Yes FNP is slightly nerfed, but having FNP is better than no FNP.

3. Psykers. IMO i dont think their powers are any better ours. Their 'hood is also limited to a range of 24" to nullify opposition's psykers.

4. Elites. Oh my. I do wish we can have Sternguards. That will really compliment our shooting. Ironclads would be good as well. Assault terminators with TH/SS, wants to make me cry.

5. Troops. Having scouts are fantastic but BS3 WS3? While i do admit that does fall into the Fluff a little, gamewise.....Tacticals, ours win hands down. Theirs can't take anything with having 10 men. And the free stuff is also limited.

6. Fast attack. Assault squads can take flamers!! Scout bikes looks interesting as well, but can't really say about their effectiveness. Vanguard...ouch, both in abilities and cost.

7. Heavy. Some glaring benefits for SM. Do you know that most of the vehicles that shoot ordnance is also barrage? That means that even a vindy can shoot without LOS! Tri-las pred....for every 2 of their we can buy 3.

[Kloud13]

Things I want to try

1. Ven Dread in Drop Pod with Multi-Melta.
-Piece of Enemy Armour causing you problems, Aim Drop Pod Right at it, no matter which way you scatter, you will be within 12" of the offending tank.
-Ven Dread hits on 2+, Strength 8 2D6 Armour Pen. AP1. That tank should be toast.

2. I am ripping off all of the Assault Cannons off my 3 Landspeeders, And replacing them with a chin mounted Heavy Bolter.
-Each Land Speeder will have 2 Hvy Bolters Each.
-A Squadron of 3 is only 180 pts.
-Move 6" or less and still fire both Heavy Bolters.
-A Squadron of 3 will be putting out 18 strength 5 shots per turn. Horde armies Tremble.

3. 2 Predator Destructors.
-Pred Annialator with Las Sponsons = Ridiculously Expensive
-Pred Destructor with Hvy Bolters = Dirt Cheap (Same as Whirlwind)
-2 Destructors + Whirlwind, very cheap way to put alot of pressure on enemy scoring units.

4. 10 man Tactical Squads with Razorback support.
- 10 man squads can take Razorbacks as transports as they can split into Combat squads, and only have jump in Razorback at a time.

[MALICIOUS LOGIC]

I think Marneus Calgar will be great with infantry heavy armies.

The new Salamandars' character could do well with mechanized lists. All flamers and meltas count as twin-linked. Get a lot of tanks with meltas or flamers. Then load the transports with infantry that has flamers and meltas. Plus you can load a Land Raider with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators. (Thunder Hammers count as master crafted).

~Logic

[hush88]

That would work until it hits against monoliths.
Monoliths are probably the bane for Salamanders.

Other than than Salamanders would probably rule against most other armies.

Did anyone notice that Ultramarines have no Chapter Tactics?
Think of the fun!

[senorcardgage]

7. Heavy. Some glaring benefits for SM. Do you know that most of the vehicles that shoot ordnance is also barrage? That means that even a vindy can shoot without LOS! Tri-las pred....for every 2 of their we can buy 3.

Uhh, who says that the vindi can shoot indirectly??

[hush88]

Summary page says that the demolisher cannon is an Ordnance Barrage weapon, so there is your indirect fire.

On the other hand, the Vindicator main entry just states that it is a Ordnance weapon. Points for arguement.

[senorcardgage]

Well, that and the demolisher canon has never been a barrage weapon...

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I dunno about anyone else but I am looking forward to a 140-point 2+/3+ Save Termie Librarian beaming around the board with Sternguard in tow...particularly considering that I think locator beacons and such will affect his scatter.

As for the Vinie, prior incidents of similar misprints always point to the entry not the summary...so expect it to do the same. I don't quite get why they don't just say "Direct ordnance" and "Indirect ordnance" personally...

I think every new SM army is going to really benefit from the Drop Pod Assault rule, as if you simply take a single drop pod, it has to arrive on the first turn and may carry a beacon for other drop pods that I believe may also work for all deep striking units. This makes a dropping "suicide" squad (perhaps "homicide" is more apt) particularly brutal. I myself will be putting a very hard Ironclad in there, probably with dual heavy flamers, but this is a conservative choice. Some of the other things that could be in there carry a lot more destructive potential.

I see a lot of speeder popularity, too. As pointed out, the gun loadouts can be very effective, and for short points you can put out a LOT of long range firepower. Squads of 3 double-HB speeders seem a solid choice that could weight-of-fire or strength-and-AP its way to success in many different game scenarios. Couple with the dirt-cheap predators, you can cause some horrific amounts of pain for under 400 points...

I foresee the characters being less key than most people might. Costs aren't prohibitive for what they do, but if you are looking for some bread and butter guys you can take some strong gear for short points on a master or captain.

Also, make note of the way options are worded in the master's entry -- some of those items can be taken but are not expressly replaced when he picks up terminator armor. Hurray!

[hush88]

Well, that and the demolisher canon has never been a barrage weapon...

True, but never been doesn't mean never will. Maybe EE19 is correct about the misprint, but in the mean time, is it or is it not a barrage weapon? If the misprint is in the entry then the demolisher just became a barrage weapon. Cool

I dunno about anyone else but I am looking forward to a 140-point 2+/3+ Save Termie Librarian beaming around the board with Sternguard in tow...particularly considering that I think locator beacons and such will affect his scatter.

As for the Vinie, prior incidents of similar misprints always point to the entry not the summary...so expect it to do the same. I don't quite get why they don't just say "Direct ordnance" and "Indirect ordnance" personally...

I think every new SM army is going to really benefit from the Drop Pod Assault rule, as if you simply take a single drop pod, it has to arrive on the first turn and may carry a beacon for other drop pods that I believe may also work for all deep striking units. This makes a dropping "suicide" squad (perhaps "homicide" is more apt) particularly brutal. I myself will be putting a very hard Ironclad in there, probably with dual heavy flamers, but this is a conservative choice. Some of the other things that could be in there carry a lot more destructive potential.

I see a lot of speeder popularity, too. As pointed out, the gun loadouts can be very effective, and for short points you can put out a LOT of long range firepower. Squads of 3 double-HB speeders seem a solid choice that could weight-of-fire or strength-and-AP its way to success in many different game scenarios. Couple with the dirt-cheap predators, you can cause some horrific amounts of pain for under 400 points...

I foresee the characters being less key than most people might. Costs aren't prohibitive for what they do, but if you are looking for some bread and butter guys you can take some strong gear for short points on a master or captain.

Also, make note of the way options are worded in the master's entry -- some of those items can be taken but are not expressly replaced when he picks up terminator armor. Hurray!

Double HB speeders sounds good, in fact too good to be true, again is it a misprint?

But i am really looking towards the TH/SS terminators as well. All in all, they were all but ignored under the 4th. Now with the 2+/3+ as well as using them inconjunction with Shrike (giving them fleet), could be devastating. Though the question is, is a 5 men team lasting enough against people as the termies will always roll last?

[EmperorEternalXIX]

With 3+ invuls I think the termies are unlikely to not get a majority of hits in. I like this change because it encourages people to overwhelm them with small arms fire instead of acting crazy and blasting them with AT weapons and hoping they hit a chink in the 5+ inv save. The main reason no one used these guys in prior editions was simply that more than half of them would be dead by the time they'd reached combat barring the Land Raider being involved -- and even then you had the undesirable situation of having 500 points in one vehicle.

I would expect to see a LOT of cyclones in the new army for sure....

[khornatedaemon]

That would work until it hits against monoliths.
Monoliths are probably the bane for Salamanders.

Other than than Salamanders would probably rule against most other armies.

Did anyone notice that Ultramarines have no Chapter Tactics?
Think of the fun!

remember melta's can destroy monoliths on glancing 6's being ap1 weapons. So sallies arent totally boned

Ironclads also make short work of monoliths. 3 base str 10 attacks with +1 to rolls on the damage chart.

[hush88]

With 3+ invuls I think the termies are unlikely to not get a majority of hits in. I like this change because it encourages people to overwhelm them with small arms fire instead of acting crazy and blasting them with AT weapons and hoping they hit a chink in the 5+ inv save. The main reason no one used these guys in prior editions was simply that more than half of them would be dead by the time they'd reached combat barring the Land Raider being involved -- and even then you had the undesirable situation of having 500 points in one vehicle.

I would expect to see a LOT of cyclones in the new army for sure....

Cyclones does sound like the "in" thing for shooty termies. Anyone willling to put one on a TH/SS or TLLC termie?
Or the option here is to forgo the assault cannon for the cyclone ML?

remember melta's can destroy monoliths on glancing 6's being ap1 weapons. So sallies arent totally boned

Ironclads also make short work of monoliths. 3 base str 10 attacks with +1 to rolls on the damage chart.

True, but it does makes life really difficult for them, needing a 6 just to hope they get a destroyed result. Still it does forgo the temptation of moving with half range to get the extra D6 for penetration roll.

[byteboy]

Regular SM Termies can equip Cyclones onto Assault Termies now? I must have missed that. Only DA can do this.

And wtf? The Vindi can fire Indirectly now?!

[hush88]

My bad....SM assault termies can't take Cyclones.

Getting too excited.

[byteboy]

This makes me a little more happy.

[Darkstar2586]

*edit* damn ninjas are everywhere!

I dont think they can equip cyclones onto assault termies, well at least i didnt see it when reading the codex last night, will check tonight when im home.

didnt even look at the rules for vindicator or the duel hb on the landspeeders!
Although personally going to have to go for ones with clyclone mls on! they've now become very good

And as for dropping a dreadnought in a droppod ontop of a tank....can that be done? dont you have to choose open terrain to drop in?

[ChrisAsmadi]

I'm curious as to how a five Land Raider army would do, personally.

((One squad each of Termies and Assault Termies can have one as a dedicated transport.))

[Darkstar2586]

expensive is what it would be :P

[samiens]

Well, you'll need a big game to try it!

Little tidbit I haven't seen mentioned is the ability to combat squad as you disembark from a drop pod- which is evry interesting. Also, Kantor and Sternguard is going to be a gret combination if used in the right amounts- plus stubborn is far better than combat tactics.

I really like the sound of the redeemer- put a unit of assault termies in there and its great at killing all kinds of enemies apart from 2+ saves. The fact its ten points cheaper than a normal raider- can fire its AC on the move and then unleash all kinds of flamey death is very intruiging- my burgeoning Jade Fists may well get one of those.

However, the core of any 5th ed army is in its scoring units. Marines are a bit less happy here- as you can only have tacticals, scouts, bikes and sternguard in this slot. Tacticals are obviously a mainstay but as always are rather limited in terms of hitting power. Scouts have got even worse, BS3 will really hurt them as a seet up on home objective units with rifles- I think scouts may disappear from competitive play. Bikes are interesting- at the same cost as a sternguard with all the toughness and manouverability Ib think they'll be popular, although the price of a bike captain might prove to be a little prohibitive. Finally, there's Sternguard in a kantor army- tough with the ability to deal with most types of enemy. However, they're pretty expensive and die as easily as a normal marine- I'm thinking a couple of units between 6 and 8 strong is likely to be the best way to go.

Other nice trick would be to use Vanguard to perform an heroic intervention guided by a locator beacon on a drop pod. I can see Sternguard and Kantor drop podding in, getting assaulted and hopefully holding the line with Kantor's extra attacks then Vanguard jetting in to clear the lines.

[Koryphaus]

True, but never been doesn't mean never will. Maybe EE19 is correct about the misprint, but in the mean time, is it or is it not a barrage weapon? If the misprint is in the entry then the demolisher just became a barrage weapon. Cool

An Indirect Fire Demolisher Cannon? No.