Tactica - Space Marines

[Nameless1]

I play against Orks alot, particularly Orks who looooove Power Klaws. Something I've come up with to counter 30 boys 'Ard Boyz squad and 10 Nob Nob Squads with a Warboss is such. Land Raider Crusader, Carrying a unit of 10 Vanguard Veterans, two have power weapons and another 2 have storm shield. Attached is a Captain equipped with a Relic Blade and Storm Shield (Converted from a finecast emperor's champion with an Iron Halo on the backpack and a shield from some old 3rd Ed fantasy Beastmen). This particular setup has me removing the ranged capabilities of the captain to make him a beast in close combat. This setup still very reliably takes control over whatever section of the board I drop it on.

Future plans for this involve adding the 5 man command squad and swapping out one of the vanguard vets for a chaplain. 9 Vets + 1 Chaplain + 5 man Command Squad + 1 Captain hits the 16 man capacity, taking advantage of the increased transport capacity of the Crusader.

[Carnage]

I play against Orks alot, particularly Orks who looooove Power Klaws. Something I've come up with to counter 30 boys 'Ard Boyz squad and 10 Nob Nob Squads with a Warboss is such. Land Raider Crusader, Carrying a unit of 10 Vanguard Veterans, two have power weapons and another 2 have storm shield. Attached is a Captain equipped with a Relic Blade and Storm Shield (Converted from a finecast emperor's champion with an Iron Halo on the backpack and a shield from some old 3rd Ed fantasy Beastmen). This particular setup has me removing the ranged capabilities of the captain to make him a beast in close combat. This setup still very reliably takes control over whatever section of the board I drop it on.

Future plans for this involve adding the 5 man command squad and swapping out one of the vanguard vets for a chaplain. 9 Vets + 1 Chaplain + 5 man Command Squad + 1 Captain hits the 16 man capacity, taking advantage of the increased transport capacity of the Crusader.

So many things wrong with this post it makes me want to quit the internet.

1. You cannot have 2 squads in a vehicle, so no command squad + captain + chaplain + vanguards. 1 Squad plus characters only.
2. All ork players love power klaws, it's half of their anti-tank capabilities.
3. 'ard boyz suck, especially in 30 man squads where they are stuck walking. Large nob squads aren't really amazing either. I fear you facing a good ork opponent and learning the true power of their list.
4. Combat captains suck balls. 3 S6 attacks is garbage for the ~150 points you are paying, especially against orks. He's going to be mashed by either quantity of attacks via the boyz, so he'd want that artificier armor (increasing his cost yet further) or he's going to eat a power klaw and fail an untimely save, getting 1 shot. Get a chaplain or librarian and stay cheap or spend the extra 20-40 points and get Kantor or Lysander or something. Both are a lot killier and/or more resilient.
5. I laugh at 275+ point cost vanguard squad. They are probably decent against orks, but you will find they are pretty crumby against pretty much everything else.

Captain (145) + Crusader (250) + 10 Vanguard (285) = 685 points. My experience with vanilla marines shows that any unit worth more then ~210 is a waste of points. Enemy death stars wreck the squad, the commander is asking to be powerfist'ed and the LR is 1 melta-shot away from an early grave.

[Nameless1]

Reviewing the rules on Transports I see where I missed that. Good thing I have not placed more than one unit in there as of yet. Bottom line on the current composition of it, it has worked incredibly well against any non-vehicle I have pointed it at, rolls up with The Hurricane Bolters for 12 twinlinked rounds, 2 from the storm bolter, and 4 twinlinked assault cannon rounds (usually use the machine spirit to point the muilt-melta at something else) accompanied with another 10 bolt pistol rounds all in the shooting phase. Followed by an assault with the Captain bringing 4 WS6 S6 attacks (not monstrous, but very reliable with Digital Weapons) before the 8 power weapon and 30 other attacks. The storm shields give pretty good survivability.

I may eventually put a chaplain in there with them and move the captain somewhere else. Going to keep the Captain the way he is because he's cool and fun to play with, which is better than a power-gaming HQ selection.

What would you recommend to better serve the role?

[Carnage]

Depends on what you mean by "the role".

If you mean killing orks in HtH i'd first suggest not fighting orks in HtH, then suggest one of the IA characters with friends in a LRC. Maybe the Minotaur Captain "Tyberios, the Red Tide" that makes 1 squad of LC terminators a troop choice and gives them furious charge. 7 LC terminators + Tyberios = Lawl dead orks. Plus the fact the terminators are both scoring and count towards your troops choices means you need less crumby tactical squads.

If you meant killing orks...period, guns, lots of guns. For 630 points you could get 7 typhoon speeders. That's 21 hvy bolter shots and 14 frag missiles @36" while moving 12" a turn. Hell, 3 Thunderfire cannons, or 3 Dakka preds, hvy flamer/combi flamer sternguard in a drop pod with vulkan...etc.

[Nameless1]

Depends on what you mean by "the role".

If you mean killing orks in HtH i'd first suggest not fighting orks in HtH, then suggest one of the IA characters with friends in a LRC. Maybe the Minotaur Captain "Tyberios, the Red Tide" that makes 1 squad of LC terminators a troop choice and gives them furious charge. 7 LC terminators + Tyberios = Lawl dead orks. Plus the fact the terminators are both scoring and count towards your troops choices means you need less crumby tactical squads.

If you meant killing orks...period, guns, lots of guns. For 630 points you could get 7 typhoon speeders. That's 21 hvy bolter shots and 14 frag missiles @36" while moving 12" a turn. Hell, 3 Thunderfire cannons, or 3 Dakka preds, hvy flamer/combi flamer sternguard in a drop pod with vulkan...etc.

I dont mean just killing Orks, I mean a unit which can reliably kill just about anything other than a vehicle in a turn.

I was unfamiliar with Tiberius and the Minotaurs, but see they use forge world rules, which aren't necessarily legal. Seems kindof OP to be able to take Termies as a troop selection. 12" Movement on the Land Speeders leaves only one weapon or the other to fire. Why 7? Just enough to take up all three fast attack selections for a little over $200 of 630 points of paper thin armor.

I'm being trolled, aren't I?

[Carnage]

Honestly not trolling...maybe some sarcasm.

The forgeworld point is taken, some people don't allow it.

As for the Typhoons, if you move 12" you can fire the Hvy Bolter , and frag missiles, since they are S4, are defensive, so can fire in addition. Or just krak missiles at a vehicle, as the hvy bolter will be largely unless anyways. Moving 12" means you are only hit in melee on a 6+, so you don't really have to fear those orks doing much damage. I said 7 because that's 630 points, closest I could get to 685 without going over. As for the speeders price tag money wise. Yeah, it's kind of insanely expensive, but it's pretty mean when combined with Mech'ed up tactical squads, predators and a couple dreads. It's a wall of armor that the orks have a hell of a time breaking through with their anti-armor deficiencies. You don't have to take 7 speeders, it was just a suggestion, even 2-3 combined with some other shooting options will come out significantly cheaper points wise and more effective gameplay wise.

You don't really have to worry about paper thin armor if you simply out range everything on the board and just sit back and wreck stuff.

Basically, for vanilla space marines you don't really ever want to try to build a melee death star for the purposes of crushing units in 1 turn, leave that to GKs, demons, nids and Space Wolves, who do it much much better then Vanilla can. Ideally you want multiple of your own units to work in unison to take apart enemy units, not play a game of proverbial paper-rock-scissors with whomever can build the bigger and/or better death star.

You'll find that most top tier vanilla lists are a wall of preds, dreads, a couple of tactical squads in rhinos, maybe the odd razorback, assault terminators, lots of speeders and Vulkan. Vulkan is a staple because he's frankly insane, and marines need every possible advantage they can get to hang with the big boys in competitive play. Vanguard are widely accepted as one of the worst units in the book. Right up there with tech marines, scout bikers and whirlwinds. Their really insane points cost and lack of power weapons makes them a poor buy for anything other then stomping on gaunts and ork boyz.

[rapterz]

easy...win.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

At least they might win something.

[Kelanen]

Seems kindof OP to be able to take Termies as a troop selection.

Like Grey Knights do? or Space Wolves? Dark Angels too?

Carnage is basically on the money. You are trying to do something which vanilla SM basically don't do well (which is to say other codexes do it so much better). Speeders on the other hand are one of your top units, and one of the few reasons to use that codex.

[blurrymadness]

Obvious answers to Ard boys:
Typhoons
Heavy Flamers
Vehicles

@Carnage
Meh, ard boyz aren't terrible in a wagon. They get rid of one of the issues with assaulting with boyz and that is armor and No Retreat wounds. The armor cuts this number by roughly 75% and a maxed out battlewagon squad is something like.. 225-250. It's somewhat expensive, but it's not terrible (depends if you go 19 or 20, bosspole, and big shootas.) Support it with decent AT fire (as much as you can anyway) and they'll be better than similarly costed squads from most codices assault wise; they're comparable to berzerkers, nobz, better than Scorpions, etc.. except the crap initiative. Due to this they can't take on things like Terminators but *everything else* in the list (standard boyz squads for example) are decent at taking on 5th ed termies (the kind with no initiative and low attacks.) Even against armor ignoring attacks you're cutting your No Retreat losses by a significant amount making them much more viable tarpit options (or at dealing with dreads, MCs and similar.)

Use them in similar fashion to Stormboyz and they can do a number for your list. Biggest issue IMO is that they need a battlewagon and that means they're eating a heavy slot; which you might still need. Should grenades go towards being *not useless* for armies like orks (in 6th), you could see them become a competitive unit by actually striking first or simultaneously.

[The Marshel]

What would be an appropriate amount of bodies for 2500 do you reckon then ?
somewhere around 125 ?

at 2500 i don't believe there is an appropriate number. Opponents have to many points to spend on the tools needed to kill those marines. they'll have enough meltguns to wipe out marine squads in single shooting phases, and thats without considering any dedicated MEQ hunting methods.

You're relying on the ability of your numbers to overwhelm them. for that you work your list has to be more efficient at getting the bodies on the board then the opponent's list is at killing. the higher the points, the harder this gets as the opponent becomes free of troops/HQ/At restrictions and can start buying the "toys" they need to beat you

[orik]

Hi everyone
I’m revising a list that I made, and I just need some pointers on a few things?

Which is better MM/HF speeders, or typhoons?

Are Thunderfire cannons any good?

Am I better off with Lascannon and melta/plasma gun Tactical squads, or MM and melta/Plasma squads? (2nd option will have a rhino, 1st option will be combat squads)

What’s the best predator load out? (I usually run Ac/Lc)

What’s the best dreadnought load out? (Usually run Plasma cannon or assault cannon/close combat weapon with heavy flamer, or a drop podded Iron clad with close combat weapon/seismic hammer with heavy flamer)

Dose a single squad of 3 bikes + attack bike with multi-melta and 2 special weapons (meltas or plasmas) work?

[stereynolds]

I find Typhoons actually work better as they have the range to survive.

Only ever used a Thunderfire Cannon attactched to my Achilles which was good. 4 templates at str 5 or 6 is useful in most circumstances. However it takes up a heavy slot which has much better options I'm afraid.

[blurrymadness]

Which is better MM/HF speeders, or typhoons?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of their roles. MM/HF speeders are anti-tank with the ability to fry troops if you lack a good target. They can double for anti-transport duty but will likely die without making their points in doing so (on average)

Typhoons however can't efficiently take on AV13-14 so are actually more of an anti-transport vehicle. Also note that their long range promotes this role. They are perfect for *harassing* AV13-14 once their run out of targets, and are also good at harassing infantry; but they'll never be *good* at taking out AV13, nor will they be wiping whole squads off the board very often.

The answer is more obvious with Vulken, but long story short take a mix of them. Use typoons/ACLC preds/Rifledreads for transports; use MM/HF speeders, MM attack bikes, MM tacs, or melta tacs/sternguard for heavy tanks.

[Killmaimburn]

Only ever used a Thunderfire Cannon attactched to my Achilles which was good. 4 templates at str 5 or 6 is useful in most circumstances. However it takes up a heavy slot which has much better options I'm afraid.

Fixxer did a really nice tactica about how to use them (half in terrain, target priorities etc) somewhere around the place.. I used them a few times when elite bikes (smurf command,jetseer,nobs) were big.. you can't turboboost and your always taking those 1s that you don't get fnp from etc..
But as of last week my thunderfires and taratula weapon platforms became rapiers
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...s/smrapier.pdf
20 points more.. gets you 4x st9 ap2 ordinance blasts a turn, resilience of in effect a weapon destroyed and 3 spare crew,still only one heavy slot..twinlinked and Oh... I can't type anymore for the cries of borkens (IIRC its also 1 Av point stronger?)

[Carnage]

20 points more.. gets you 4x st9 ap2 ordinance blasts a turn, resilience of in effect a weapon destroyed and 3 spare crew,still only one heavy slot..twinlinked and Oh... I can't type anymore for the cries of borkens (IIRC its also 1 Av point stronger?)

The rapier doesn't have a blast actually. Just rolls 2 dice and picks the highest against vehicles.

[orik]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of their roles. MM/HF speeders are anti-tank with the ability to fry troops if you lack a good target. They can double for anti-transport duty but will likely die without making their points in doing so (on average)

Typhoons however can't efficiently take on AV13-14 so are actually more of an anti-transport vehicle. Also note that their long range promotes this role. They are perfect for *harassing* AV13-14 once their run out of targets, and are also good at harassing infantry; but they'll never be *good* at taking out AV13, nor will they be wiping whole squads off the board very often.

The answer is more obvious with Vulken, but long story short take a mix of them. Use typoons/ACLC preds/Rifledreads for transports; use MM/HF speeders, MM attack bikes, MM tacs, or melta tacs/sternguard for heavy tanks.

Thanks for clearing that up, I’ve just got a few more questions

I see your points about the speeders. So in a list it’s best to have a mix. So how about at 1500pts I run 1 typhoon and 2 MM/HF speeders, or 2 Typhoons and 3 MM/HF speeders if point allow. Would this work?

I keep seeing in lists around the place that people are using rifledreads. Are they the most competitive build or are there others?

With sternguard, what’s the most effective way of running them? I plan on running them in a rhino with 4 combi-meltas

I’m also thinking about running a squad of 3 bikers (with plasma guns/ meltas)+ an MM attack bike to go alongside the rest of my army to take out tanks and anything with high toughness.
Would this work?

[orik]

Double post

[Kelanen]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of their roles. MM/HF speeders are anti-tank with the ability to fry troops if you lack a good target.

Typhoons however can't efficiently take on AV13-14 so are actually more of an anti-transport vehicle.

The answer is more obvious with Vulken, but long story short take a mix of them. Use typoons/ACLC preds/Rifledreads for transports; use MM/HF speeders, MM attack bikes, MM tacs, or melta tacs/sternguard for heavy tanks.

Blurry is spot on - they do very different things, both necessary. Which you need more depends on the rest of your list.

I keep seeing in lists around the place that people are using rifledreads. Are they the most competitive build or are there others?

They are the only competitive Anti-Transport Dread. MM/F Dreads in a Drop Pod can work for the anti-tank role, and then using Typhoons for you anti-transport.

It's much more common in my experience to use Rifleman Dreads as the anti-transport though, and therefore MM/HF Speeders for the anti-Tank.

Both approaches can work if supported by the rest of the list. Your marine squads can generally add to your anti-tank more effectively than your anti-transport though, so this is why I'd advocate taking the most efficient anti-transport you have available - which is Rifleman Dreads.

[stereynolds]

I am seriously considering rapiers when I can afford them. One Heavy Support choice for 3 of them, works out cheaper and more reliable than most vanilla devastator squads for the weapons they can bring (ie anti tank). I think I did the costings and they work out as equal to 2.5 Lascannon armed devastators :P