5.0 Tactica - Tau Empire

[Shas'o Zor'bas]

I think that 5th Edition wasn't very kind to Tau. The codex needs an update as TLOS makes it difficult for suits to hide properly and the wound allocation rules really minimazes the uses of an ethereal.

Pathfinders are great though. I suppose it would be a good idea to take 2 teams of 8 and equip 1-3 of them with a rail rifle. Markerlights are a must as always but much more effective now.

The new missions need a lot of mobility so mechanised is more effective than static (but that was always the case wasn't it).

Now about the stealth marker Drones. Do u think they are effective enough? I really want to use them but they have a very low BS. I'll try them though and see what the result is.

[Plebian]

Another must in 5th is to take Gundrones for all your DF. The new shooting rules renders the SMS useless, and detached GD are amazing as speedbumps and providing cover. In my mech list I have 4 2 man GD squads running around causing havoc...

[Jayden63]

Another must in 5th is to take Gundrones for all your DF. The new shooting rules renders the SMS useless, and detached GD are amazing as speedbumps and providing cover. In my mech list I have 4 2 man GD squads running around causing havoc...

Until your playing KP missions in which case those gun drones just became a huge liability.

I'll stick with my SMS warfishes. Its just means I've moved from a 12" move to a 6" move, and at least when I have to move 12" I can still get off a Heavy 4 weapon with a 24" range. Better than either the burst cannon or gun drones could hope to do.

[Asi the Red]

@Zor'bas: I can see where you're coming from with the TLOS and suits issue, but at least now that skimmers block LOS you can hide behind them. I'm not sure what you mean about the Etherial though. Anytime you're forced to allocate a wound to him in 5th he would have been forced to take one from Torrents of Fire in 4th.

About Gun Drones: I think I'll be going with SMS/BC as well, at least in games of 1500+. Being able to take the extra Weapon Destroyed before having to change it to an Immobilized seems worth it to me.

[i]edit:/i] Another thought. If anything, Etherials are more survivable as they count as an upgrade character when they have a retinue...

[ThunderShrike.]

Anyone ever try using a pair of sky rays. ie an army with lots of marker lights and seeker missiles.

[Creeping Dementia]

I've personally replaced my Ion hammerhead with a Skyray and I'm very satisfied with the results. IMO the Skyray is now as good as it always should have been, an excellent support tank.

As for seekers, I used to have them on my piranha but now the Skyray takes on that responsibility. I initially thought I would be taking more Pathfinders as well, but I've been leaning more in favor of mobile markerlights lately so now my marker sources are 2 from the Skyray and 3 from a Stealth team and 2 from a couple small Firewarrior teams. I've been finding it seems to be just enough to give the boost I need for the turn I'm in at the moment, while also not sinking too many points into markers.

As for Crisis suits, I've ditched my fireknives in favor of Deathrains w/ TL missiles and a flamer. This goes with a principle I'm playing with (with good success) of not worrying about denying saves, but instead making my opponent roll for a ton of saves out of mass firepower. For this same reason my commander is packing an AFP, and MP, to get another large template into the fray (on top of 2 hammerhead sub-munition shots).

The main weakness I've run into so far (based mainly on the list I prefer) is the huge amount of KPs I have. Due to the drones on vehicles counting as a KP I have like 21 KP in my list (2000pts) But 2/3 of the games I play go great, and when we roll KPs I have to leave my drones on the racks and adapt a bit so its not all bad. I personally love the new close combat rule because my Firewarriors lose a lot easier and aren't stuck in combat during my shooting phase.

Anyone tried Vespids much in 5th yet? I've never been a fan but I'm curious if anyone thinks they got any better.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Would somebody care to explain to me how the heck a "Deathrain" Battlesuit is any good? Too light to kill tanks that matter, and too few shots to take out Infantry. It's basically a Reaper Autocannon, which is not that good for the near-50-pt price tag you're thinking of. I'm under the opinion that, if you want to take out Infantry, you should be using Stealth Suits with Targeting Array. More accurate, more shots, less expensive, and by far easier to hide, thus rendering their lower toughness and 1 wound per pointless. Fire Warriors are also pretty anti-infantry in their own right, and they're amazingly points-efficient for what you get. Not to mention the whole thing about actually being scoring.

Were I to do an anti-Infantry build with Crisis Suits, I'd go with Missile Pod + Burst Cannon + Multi-Tracker (+ Targeting Array for Shas'vre). 5 shots for only a little more expensive than the Deathrain, and it has a 24" threat range. And then there's the Shas'el with ABFP, Burst Cannon, Targeting Array and HW Multi-Tracker for a cheap anti-Infantry HQ that can be joined by one or two of the previous "Deathburst" Shas'vres that I was considering. However, I'm far more partial to using Crisis Suits to contribute some sorely-needed AP1-2 firepower to the army. Let's be honest, Railguns can't do everything. A pair of suits with Plasma Rifles, Fusion Guns, and Multi-Trackers, on the other hand, can put the fear of T'au into any Hive Tyrant. (Believe it or not, local Tyranid players, myself included, actually take 2+ Sv monsters. )

I'm curious to hear how Skyrays work out as mobile Markerlight delivery. I've been considering it, as the Skyray can have BS4 and split its Markerlight fire. Even though the Pathfinders are Fast Attacks with Devilfish that the Fire Warriors can fly around in, Pathfinders have the nasty little problem of getting shot apart, failing Leadership, and running off the table. The Skyray, on the other hand, has a solid front hull, a decent side hull even, and a lot of Seeker Missiles. Make it a fast vehicle with Multi-Tracker and it could cause a lot of damage. The question is whether or not it's worth what's effectively a Hammerhead when it takes up that precious Heavy slot. For my points, Force Org slots, and money, I'll risk blowing the Ld8 checks and take the Pathfinders. When every Heavy choice has to compete with their weight in Broadsides and Hammerheads, very little else measures up.

I'm not so sold on the Smart Missiles for Tau vehicles. Gun Drones on Devilfish may be weak, but they provide 2 extra shots to Devilfish with Multi-Trackers that move the full 12" every turn, effectively the only "support" weapons on any Tau tank. Also, if the drones don't give up Victory Points, why would they give up Kill Points? (Sounds like one of these "Why does my Biovore give up a Kill Point every time it shoots?" kind of issues.)

I've heard of people putting Smart Missiles on Hammerheads, but Burst Cannons are easily the winners there. 2 more shots than the Smart Missiles, they're cheaper than Smart Missiles, and they count as 2 weapons to destroy, rather than 1. The only advantage of the Smart Missiles is firing over LoS-blocking terrain (which will technically still allow cover saves anyway), of which there practically is no such thing anymore. And if there is, Battlesuits should be using it.

[Shas'o Zor'bas]

That's a good one. Why do drones give kill points? They are considered wargear when not taken as a fast attack choice don't they????

[Fixer]

Drones attached to certain units (like Fish or Pirahnas) act as passengers and when they detatch they count as a separate unit. Since killpoints refer to anything classed as a unit they're worth one... which is silly.

[Shas'o Zor'bas]

What if they don't disembark?

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Well when the Tank is destroyed, there's not much you can do about it. Either they disembark and allow the opponent to take the Kill Point for killing them, or they die with the ship and the ship will effectively give up 2 Kill Points, 1 for the ship, and 1 for the drones. Since disembarkation from a wreck is not a choice, there's no getting around it.

[Shas'o Zor'bas]

If that's the case I think I'll use SMS or burst cannons when I can. I don't like giving my opponent a kill point because he destroied a machine.

[darrelltmcd]

this is looking good will have to keep my eye on it

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Well I wouldn't out-and-out say I'd never, ever take Gun Drones on a tank. What I would say is that it's not a preference. I'm not going to go out and convert all my Devilfish to carry Smart Missiles instead of Gun Drones, just because I might be giving up 2 Kill Points.

First of all, Gun Drones on a Devilfish are free. I'm not going to shell out 25% of a second Devilfish just to deny this 2nd Kill Point.

Second, Gun Drones are upgrades for Hammerheads that are actually more expensive than the Burst Cannons, which are by far the superior weapons choice.

Third, in order to take this Kill Point for the Gun Drones, the enemy is going to have to divert some fire from some other place to take out the Gun Drones. With any other army, it might cause a problem, but considering how stiffly Tau refuse to give up Kill Points on a regular basis, the one Kill Point that Gun Drones give away (and that's assuming the opponent is giong to bother wasting their effort on your drones) is probably not going to end a game. It may set you back a single Kill Point, but it probably won't set you back by enough to lose a game with Tau. Besides, most armies have some easy-KP targets in them, unless the opponent went out of their way to build their list with Kill Points in mind.

And fourth, taking the good with the bad, if Gun Drones give up Kill Points, they can also deny Objectives in the other 2/3 of games you play. In fact, as they act as having Jet Packs, they're actually quite good at it.

[Creeping Dementia]

I agree with Drake on the drones. My list right now has a ton of KP available (like 21), which makes Kill point games tough on me, but on the other 2/3 of the games I play it rocks. A lot of lists are focusing on reducing the number of Kill points they have, so they just have fewer units. That makes it really tough for them to justify using one of their few units to shoot at 2 or 4 drones. I'm not putting drones on my tanks though, just devilfish and piranha, Bursts and SMS are still better for my Hammerheads and Skyray.

I'm just of the opinion that being at a disadvantage 1/3 of the games I play doesn't outweigh the advantage I have of a bunch of free, contesting, mobile cover saving, pinning, JSJing, speed bumping drones the rest of the games I play.

[Shas'o Zor'bas]

Don't know guys I'll have to play more games to see. You are right though giving SMS to a Devilfish is a bit expensive.

[Deadseed]

I'm thinking maybe we should discuss some tactics against the new SM codex. I don't know about you, but Vanguard vets scare the poop out of me. Being able to drop pod in and assault the same turn pretty much guarantees that one of your units (probably your best one) will be wiped out when those bad boys arrive. Probably first turn if they take more than one drop pod.

I think there are 3 options to combat this.

One is take a completely mech army. Your troops should be fairly protected in their Devilfish, and I would definitely take flechette dischargers, though your crisis suits are still kinda out of luck here.

Another option is, if you are taking a static gun line to make sure all FW squads and Broadsides have a nice protection from assault by ringing them with a unit of Kroot or gun drones. Also make sure all squads are close enough together that a pie plate couldn't land between them and fit a squad of vets. This ensures you don't have to take so many Kroot as to completely surround every squad.

Lastly, and probably the most effective, is the positional relay. Keep your units in reserve, deep strike a sacrificial Crisis team with fusion blasters to deep strike on turn 2 and pop whatever tanks he might have on the table, or perhaps a team of flamers to take out a unit in cover that you think might be a problem in the later game. Just be sure to place your commander inside a large unit of Kroot or something, so the Vanguard don't arrive first turn and turn him into paste...that might ruin this plan.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Tau will probably notice Combat Tactics the least. When the entire premise is to shoot and not get assaulted, a voluntary fallback is only a good thing for Tau. Also the loss of Rites of Battle (without Sicarius) means that Marines will not be Ld10 like they were before, but Ld9 at best. If you can spare enough Markerlights, this makes the prospect of pinning large Marine squads quite amusing, especially if you can knock off their Sergeant first.

The really disturbing thing about the new Marines, generally speaking, is that hiding in cover doesn't do all that it used to. With all Marines now carrying Frag Grenades, they don't lose anything for charging into cover, except for the chance to blow the charge on a bad terrain roll. Not so bad for Fire Warriors, as they actually want to die in one turn if they get charged, but this does cause problems for Kroot, who beforehand could comfortably hunker down in woods with the general assurance that they'll always be striking first.

As someone who's seen and heard commentary from Marine players on Vanguards, these guys are disturbingly expensive. And there's not even a way to make them scoring, like there is for Sternguard. For this reason, most players will only use one unit at most (though some Raven Guard players might double-up, with how they can Fleet). Furthermore, unless they only drop a naked unit of 5 veterans (at which point they'll be hard-pressed to actually kill anything) then they'll not make their points back. With how Vanguards are typically geared to kill big, large stuff, the best Tau can hope for is to lose a unit on the charge (and you will) and then blow the daylights out of this overpriced point-sink of a unit. In most cases, Tau will win this exchange.

Getting rid of Drop Pods that carry the Positional Relays is only as hard as the absence of Fusion Blasters. In fact, with the chance to cause a Drop Pod to explode on a 4+, shooting the Drop Pod with a close-up Fusion Blaster (or a Railgun from anywhere, as Drop Pods are very hard to hide!) can cause a number of wounds to the Marines who just got out of the pod via the explosion, and it will also replace the pod for a much shorter crater that will allow more and more Fire Warriors to fire at the Marines. The riskier alternative, which can be used to its safest effect when the opponent runs out of pods, is to use the pods for JSJ cover, turning the pods against the Marines. (For this reason also, keep a very close eye on any Dreadnoughts that get Wrecked or Immobilized.)

[Deadseed]

Does this mean Helios suits will become a little more popular? I can see drop pod armies being pretty common, especially containing Dreads with heavy flamers. Twin linked if the army takes Vulkan, that guy is gonna be nasty. So more fusion blasters equals more drop pod/dreadnought popping goodness.

I think a good team for taking out drop pod marine squads would be a 2 Helios, and a Sunforge team leader, with target lock.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Sunforge?

The Helios Suit could quite possibly become more popular. I've always esteemed them very highly because they're one of the few (only?) ways Tau have to handle large numbers of 2+/3+sv Infantry and Monsters, aside from redundant amounts of dakka.

My Helios Team would have to be a Shas'el w/ Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, Plasma Rifle and CIB (probably your "Sunforge"), joined by 2 Helios Shas'vres, both w/ HW Multi-tracker and Targeting Array themselves. That's a highly-accurate wall of good-AP shots that should tear through a Marine squad like it's nobody's business. I don't see splitting fire being all that important with any Battlesuit team, especially when there are better ways to destroy vehicles while sacrificing less firepower. (This might also be a bit of my Tyranid experience leaking over: have one tool for one specific job, and another tool for another specific job.)