5.0 Tactica - Tau Empire

[Kuolema]

Deploy your troops so that they end up facing a firing squad.

This isn't 4th edition anymore =P

[atree]

Am I the only who sees the Kroot as a very cheap very useful, shock horror, combat unit?

Orks they might not be, but effective bucket of dice rollers they are. I'm fortunate enough to play with at least 2 forests on a board, sure, but hitting a unit with an assault even when the unit's at half strength (I intend to run 16 with Shaper and 5 hounds at 1,500 or above) can make a mess in quite a few things for considerably less than 200 points.

no I love kroot but I think they are out macthed when playing against marines.
but if I know I am going to play any thing else Ill through in 1 to 2 full units of kroot. and I love there rapid firing.

kroot hold a forest very nicely and I will even let them be charged if i get to rapid fire out of a forest.

but before evey one jumps up and down about that it means you have got 1 extra attack from rapid fireing insted of +1 for charging and you then recive the charge in cover.

but kroot are not something you take against marines.

[AbusePuppy]

Well, you could use Human Auxiliaries instead of Kroot, they work just as well for bubblewrap. And 0-1 Piranhas just means you don't have as much blocking. Definitely a more challenging list to play, but not completely uncompetitive.

They actually don't, for a couple reasons. Kroot can infiltrate, which means you can deploy them more widely and have more options- Gue'vesa can't. Kroot, while not the most devastating of combat troops, stand a fair chance of picking off some enemies, especially if they are in cover and the enemy doesn't have grenades- again, something the Gue'vesa lack. They also have no option for cheap-and-choppy Kroot Hounds to up their numbers against morale checks, another advantage of the Kroot. Adding in the miscellaneous benefits of the Fieldcraft rule and things end up being pretty hugely in the Kroot's favor.

While they serve similar purposes on the surface, Kroot haven array of small advantages that, summed up, make them vastly superior to Auxiliaries.

[SabrX]

If Gue'vesa got updated, they would cost cheaper than Kroot or Kroot hounds.

However, I don't want mixing IG and Tau. Both operate on different fluff and have their own tactics. IG likes to drop pie plates and spam cheap dispensable units. Tau prefers precision with special weapons.

[Hokiecow]

What do you do about units that can move more than 12'' or that deep strike??

1) You have to know what your playing against. WH40K 101, if something can move 12" and assault then keep your distance, use the terrain to your advantage, and target it. If you can diminished the unit enough then the Farsight unit can finish it off in CC if need be. 8 Suits, one with a PW is nothing to shake a stick at!

2) The opponent is going to take a risk deep striking. If they are successful then the suits can still soak up the fire with wound allocation. And if they were so bold to DS so close, then they are going to have contend with PR and FB ready to vaporize them. Seriously, if there is a threat of DS, it can be mitigated. Even with a standard Tau army it's a concern. There's nothing Kroot, Piranha, or a Hammerhead can do to stop a DS unit.

[atree]

deep striking ins a mean mean new tatic that can work very well you get a 10 man tatical squad coming down near a suit squat that squad is dead .
2 flamers 8 bolters will rip you apart.
say it will not but it dose.

you can bubble wrap or you can get the deep strike player first turn and hold army in reserve but I would say for a suit army you are screwed.

Gue'vesa are a nice bubble wrap and when, not soon a new codex comes out would love to see them in it. oh on a new codex dark eldar with poison weapons in basic troops unit OMG.

[Kuolema]

1) You have to know what your playing against. WH40K 101, if something can move 12" and assault then keep your distance, use the terrain to your advantage, and target it. If you can diminished the unit enough then the Farsight unit can finish it off in CC if need be. 8 Suits, one with a PW is nothing to shake a stick at!

You will run out of board edge sooner or later. Also for the points for pay for them farsight and friends will fold to any elite CC unit.
And your suits are allergic to missiles.

2) The opponent is going to take a risk deep striking. If they are successful then the suits can still soak up the fire with wound allocation. And if they were so bold to DS so close, then they are going to have contend with PR and FB ready to vaporize them. Seriously, if there is a threat of DS, it can be mitigated. Even with a standard Tau army it's a concern. There's nothing Kroot, Piranha, or a Hammerhead can do to stop a DS unit.

There is a lot kroot, piranhas and hammerheads can do to stop DS units from killing your suits. You put them in front of your suits so when the DS units land they can only target kroot, drones or piranhas. You don't want melta guns shooting your suits.

[Kirby]

Or within melta range of your tanks which Kroot help with. A lot.

[cav da man]

I'm looking to start Tau (last games i played were 3rd edition as Imperial Guard).

Do you reckon it's worth waiting to see what the new codex brings before buying a whole lotta things?

Have to say i'm still fascinated by stealth suits and my army list will probably take a single decent sized squad of them .

And now bringing it towards the tactics point:

I was thinking about kroot as suicide troops, i'm alright with that but i was thinking of having a max sized squad of hounds (i think they're no longer fast attack like they were in 3rd) with the minimum number of kroot that requires, they have the advantage of being cheaper and having higher initiative in combat making them a more effective roadblock to me since i don't think anybody really cares about kroot shooting especially with cover saves flying around but in CC i can see 12(i think this is the max) hounds ripping in 36 attacks on the assault before or at the same time as most of the other units kroot are capable of slowing down will do much more damage than just having regular kroot take a few hits from that SM squad before returning.

Was wondering whether that's a workable idea since i'm not happy with the idea of having minimum sized units that serve no purpose other than slowing down when i could spend a few more points and possibly kill a good chunk of the enemy before they turn around and cut my paper thin kroot in half

Edit: i made it yellow so that people wouldn't ignore me >_<

[Hokiecow]

You will run out of board edge sooner or later. Also for the points for pay for them farsight and friends will fold to any elite CC unit.
And your suits are allergic to missiles.

Units can move in more then one direction.

You play to control the game, so you try to pick when and who Farsight and friends attacks. If it's a lost cause then let the assaulted CS unit become a tar baby.


There is a lot kroot, piranhas and hammerheads can do to stop DS units from killing your suits. You put them in front of your suits so when the DS units land they can only target kroot, drones or piranhas. You don't want melta guns shooting your suits.

Piranhas are usually zooming towards the opponent, then sitting back deterring DS. I haven't read too many, if at all where they hang back stopping DS.

What is considered the front of the unit? If it's whatever side is facing the opponent then they will DS behind or on the sides.

A melta can still shoot a CS if it's in rage, regardless if there is a Kroot in between.

Kroot, Hammerheads, Piranhas CAN NOT protect all your CS from all sides and remain a mobile threat. That's why I said you have to take advantage of the board and it a risky proposition from them.

Look, if you feel that you can not play without Kroot, Hammerheads, and Piranhas; that's fine. But you can not say an army is not viable if you haven't played it. Sure it's not going to be as easy to play then with a standard kitted Tau army but it's fun and challenging to play. You have to use other tactics, not normally used with Tau. Most importantly the army can win and I will not discourage players from using it.

[atree]

There is a lot kroot, piranhas and hammerheads can do to stop DS units from killing your suits. You put them in front of your suits so when the DS units land they can only target kroot, drones or piranhas. You don't want melta guns shooting your suits.

If they can see you they can shoot you it doesn't stop them shooting you just give some room from the flamers. and a cover save ... you really need a cover save from a flamer right... since you have a 3 + armour save...

I saw a mean list which uses a lots of assault cannons on dreadies and tatical squads with flamers just the other day. a suit list is going to get a new hole ripped with it.

what is evey more mean is the new blood angel phyic jet pact dreadie way way too fast.

[Kirby]

If they can see you they can shoot you it doesn't stop them shooting you just give some room from the flamers. and a cover save ... you really need a cover save from a flamer right... since you have a 3 + armour save...

I saw a mean list which uses a lots of assault cannons on dreadies and tatical squads with flamers just the other day. a suit list is going to get a new hole ripped with it.

what is evey more mean is the new blood angel phyic jet pact dreadie way way too fast.

I really wish you'd learn to type English somewhat correctly.

Stopping an opponent from getting close to you for Tau is good. Tau don't like combat. Delaying your opponent form getting into combat is good. Tick for Kroot. Tau also don't like meltaguns because they don't get 5pt cover saves from them and they get 2D6 pen against their tanks + ID their suits. They are also short-ranged weapons which Kroot push away. Tick for Kroot. This means your suits and the rest of your very shooty army are...shooting for longer. Tick for Kroot. Add in Crisis suits can sometimes hide out of LoS behind tanks and ya, poor opponent.

AC Dreads & Tacs scare a Tau army how? There's not scary S8+ blasts to wipe out suits or really many multiple S8+ weapons. Broadsides/Hammerheads/Piranhas make rather short work of Dreads and Crisis Suits focus fire to drop 1-2 Tacs a turn if there are no other threats.

Oh look a flying dread. Say hi to Kroot you can't tank shock through and I"m not going to be stupid enough to leave holes for you to drop into behind my Kroot. Bubble-wrapping against skimmers/jumpers is about defending where they land.

[Kuolema]

Piranhas are usually zooming towards the opponent, then sitting back deterring DS. I haven't read too many, if at all where they hang back stopping DS.

Piranhas come with drones.
Depend if you need to block something or if the DS units are a bigger threat on what you do with your piranhas.

What is considered the front of the unit? If it's whatever side is facing the opponent then they will DS behind or on the sides.

That is why you have this thing called a board edge?

A melta can still shoot a CS if it's in rage, regardless if there is a Kroot in between.

Yeah but you know, you get this thing called a cover save.

Kroot, Hammerheads, Piranhas CAN NOT protect all your CS from all sides and remain a mobile threat. That's why I said you have to take advantage of the board and it a risky proposition from them.

you can protect all your suits with kroot and piranhas, I'm sure kirby can give you some pics or diagrams if you don't understand it.

Look, if you feel that you can not play without Kroot, Hammerheads, and Piranhas; that's fine. But you can not say an army is not viable if you haven't played it. Sure it's not going to be as easy to play then with a standard kitted Tau army but it's fun and challenging to play. You have to use other tactics, not normally used with Tau. Most importantly the army can win and I will not discourage players from using it.

Farsight list isn't competitive no matter what way you look at it. Sure it can win at your local store where people don't put much thought into making competitive lists.

Units can move in more then one direction.

You play to control the game, so you try to pick when and who Farsight and friends attacks. If it's a lost cause then let the assaulted CS unit become a tar baby.

Basic maths if you move 12'' diagonal and your opponent moves 12+D6'' run straight at you he will catch you. You can't always rely on terrain being where you want it and most units moving 12'' a turn can jump terrain.

[cav da man]

While we're talking about kroot, how big do you like your squads of kroot to be?

In my earlier post i was trying to ask whether taking max or very nearly max kroot hounds with minimum kroot is a good choice if hounds don't take up a fast attack slot anymore(havn't played since 3rd ed)?

[Hokiecow]

Piranhas come with drones.
Depend if you need to block something or if the DS units are a bigger threat on what you do with your piranhas.

If that's the case then any unit can deter DS units. Piranhas are not a unit that I would use to stop a DS unit since it's not a good use for them for their capabilities and points.

[COLOR="Purple"]That is why you have this thing called a board edge?

The boards edge doesn't tell you what is considered the front of a unit, a unit can face in 360 degrees.

[COLOR="Purple"]Yeah but you know, you get this thing called a cover save.

It doesn't mean you're automatically going to get the save nor protect you from flamers. You can also get the same benefit from bring in cover or behind terrain.

[COLOR="Purple"]you can protect all your suits with kroot and piranhas, I'm sure kirby can give you some pics or diagrams if you don't understand it.

Your making the point, you can show the proof.

[COLOR="Purple"]
Farsight list isn't competitive no matter what way you look at it. Sure it can win at your local store where people don't put much thought into making competitive lists.

I've explained how a Farsight can handle your use cases but you refuse to listen. Please do not indignify my response by saying that your area is more competitive then mine and it would never work, especially when you've never tried it. I'll continue to try new things and learn new uses for my army and promote methods that DO WORK.

[COLOR="Purple"]Basic maths if you move 12'' diagonal and your opponent moves 12+D6'' run straight at you he will catch you. You can't always rely on terrain being where you want it and most units moving 12'' a turn can jump terrain.

Your making a blanket assumption to validate your point. A unit that moves 12" does not automatically mean it can move through or over cover, not that it can run or assault afterwords. As I said you pick and choose your units. Use the terrain to your advantage to slow it down. High value targets will be shot at and ideally by the time they reach you they have been reduced to nothing, reach you too late to make a difference, or you have backup available.

[Kirby]

While we're talking about kroot, how big do you like your squads of kroot to be?

In my earlier post i was trying to ask whether taking max or very nearly max kroot hounds with minimum kroot is a good choice if hounds don't take up a fast attack slot anymore(havn't played since 3rd ed)?

10 Kroots + 1/3/7 Hounds are best. This forces one more kill for 25% tests.

[cav da man]

10 Kroots + 1/3/7 Hounds are best. This forces one more kill for 25% tests.

but then don't kroot make a much more efficient speedbump if they can get as many kills as possible in close combat before or at the same time as most other things they're fighting attack?
less return hits, less kroot dead that round, more hits to use again on that squad and maybe even winning the combat if they're facing maybe a mid sized group that are not CC focused monsters

i'd like to pay the 30 more points to get about a dozen more decent strength I5 attacks from a group of 7, but then i don't have the latest codex so i don't even know what the max on kroot hounds is now :< it was 8 in 3rd i believe, with the way your tactics work out the kroot are pretty guaranteed to have to CC 'something' so it doesn't even seem like a loss compared to say upgrading a crisis suit slightly..

may end up doing some maths to see what the average number of additional wounds on marines is including through additional close combats in kroot that survive to attack again !

[Kuolema]

If that's the case then any unit can deter DS units. Piranhas are not a unit that I would use to stop a DS unit since it's not a good use for them for their capabilities and points.

Piranhas are expendable, battle suits are not.

The boards edge doesn't tell you what is considered the front of a unit, a unit can face in 360 degrees.

You have your back to the board edge and blocking units to the front and/or sides.

It doesn't mean you're automatically going to get the save nor protect you from flamers. You can also get the same benefit from bring in cover or behind terrain.

Since when did flamers scare your battle suits?
Relying on terrain limits your mobility.

Your making the point, you can show the proof.

I don't have vassal, maybe I'll do something up in paint for you, nice and simple like.

I've explained how a Farsight can handle your use cases but you refuse to listen. Please do not indignify my response by saying that your area is more competitive then mine and it would never work, especially when you've never tried it. I'll continue to try new things and learn new uses for my army and promote methods that DO WORK.

Umm no you haven't explained how a farsight list can effective handle the situations I have mentioned.
You can only take one hammerhead and one unit of broadsides, so your anti-tank suffers. You can take fusion blasters on DSing crisis teams, but DS is not reliable for tau and crisis teams are expensive to be used as suicidal melta teams.

You have no kroot at all. You can't always rely on your suits being able to outrun your opponent. Yes sometimes it might work but not often enough to base a tactical plan around.

What would you do vs a BA jump pack army? You get one turn of shooting before they are in assault, VV can even assault the turn they land.

Or what about an ork horde? Not competitive, but popular.

What about a space wolf force with a lot of TWC with plenty of missile back up? Did I mention crisis suits are allergic to missiles?

Your making a blanket assumption to validate your point. A unit that moves 12" does not automatically mean it can move through or over cover, not that it can run or assault afterwords. As I said you pick and choose your units. Use the terrain to your advantage to slow it down. High value targets will be shot at and ideally by the time they reach you they have been reduced to nothing, reach you too late to make a difference, or you have backup available.

and you say I'm the one making blanket statements.

Basic maths if you move 12'' diagonal and your opponent moves 12+D6'' run straight at you he will catch you. You can't always rely on terrain being where you want it and most units moving 12'' a turn can jump terrain.

Now did I say all units that can move over 12'' a turn can jump terrain? No, I said most.

[atree]

Piranhas are expendable, battle suits are not.

first of all no and no neither unit is expendable

You have your back to the board edge and blocking units to the front and/or sides.

umm I am really unsure about this as you are cutting you self off. wouldn't it be better to be held in reverser tau are the 3 fastest army in the game

Since when did flamers scare your battle suits?
Relying on terrain limits your mobility.

um or are you crazy ? not only dose every model get one str 4 hit your drones die as well flamers are mean! oh I have a 3+ save woot with enough hits you are going to fail

[COLOR="Purple"]Umm no you haven't explained how a farsight list can effective handle the situations I have mentioned.
You can only take one hammerhead and one unit of broadsides, so your anti-tank suffers. You can take fusion blasters on DSing crisis teams, but DS is not reliable for tau and crisis teams are expensive to be used as suicidal melta teams.

another reason suit lists arn't that good. but really Farsight is a mont'ka style army and the tatics of killing blow isn't one of the effective unless you know what you are doing yes you want to be close to your oppent but you want to be able to move like a ****. it is a bit like dancing. but I still think 7 suits for the points is too expensive for a 1500 point list

Farsight list isn't competitive no matter what way you look at it. Sure it can win at your local store where people don't put much thought into making competitive lists.

I have to agree only because it is too expensive in a 1500 point army all your suit end up in 1 or 2 units but in a Apoc game this unit would be nice. also I dout you know want competitive is what circuit are you playing ?

You have no kroot at all. You can't always rely on your suits being able to outrun your opponent. Yes sometimes it might work but not often enough to base a tactical plan around.

yer ? what are fire warriors for ?

What would you do vs a BA jump pack army? You get one turn of shooting before they are in assault, VV can even assault the turn they land.

another reason suit lists are weak

Or what about an ork horde? Not competitive, but popular.

yep need fire warriors

What about a space wolf force with a lot of TWC with plenty of missile back up? Did I mention crisis suits are allergic to missiles?

and flamers and laz cannons and star cannons and big shootas power weapons u name it suit die real ez don't they

and you say I'm the one making blanket statements.

never I am better at that

Now did I say all units that can move over 12'' a turn can jump terrain? No, I said most.

Basic maths if you move 12'' diagonal and your opponent moves 12+D6'' run straight at you he will catch you. You can't always rely on terrain being where you want it and most units moving 12'' a turn can jump terrain.

you tell me

[COLOR="Yellow"]I'm looking to start Tau (last games i played were 3rd edition as Imperial Guard).

Do you reckon it's worth waiting to see what the new codex brings before buying a whole lotta things?

Yer but who knows when that is dark eldar and grey knight codex might be next

but buy 500 point too see how they play !
have a look at this rumour about the codex http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=54354

[Kuolema]

first of all no and no neither unit is expendable

Um yes piranhas are expendable. They aren't you main source of fire power, the fusion guns they have can threaten vehicles but it's not their primary role. Piranhas primary role is to delay enemy assault units so you get more turns of shooting.
If your opponent is a DS force then it's much better to lose a piranha than lose crisis suits.

umm I am really unsure about this as you are cutting you self off. wouldn't it be better to be held in reverser tau are the 3 fastest army in the game

Then you come in piece meal and get less turns of shooting.

um or are you crazy ? not only dose every model get one str 4 hit your drones die as well flamers are mean! oh I have a 3+ save woot with enough hits you are going to fail

Not only do suits have a 3+ save but they are T4 and have 2 wounds each. Flamers don't scare suits.

yer ? what are fire warriors for ?

Sitting in a fish so they can take objectives later.
Fire warriors are more expensive than kroot.
They also don't get infiltrate
They don't get cheap and effective kroot hounds.
They do have better guns, better saves and their fancy grenades. But the 3-4 point increase per model compared to kroot and hounds builds up.

another reason suit lists are weak

farsight list =/= list that uses suits

A proper tau list can feed the BA kroot and drones to give them more turns of shooting their rapid fire plasma.

yep need fire warriors

How do fire warriors help you vs orks??

and flamers and laz cannons and star cannons and big shootas power weapons u name it suit die real ez don't they

lascannons yes but you can get cover easy enough from them.
Star cannons not so scary because they don't ID suits and suits can get cover saves pretty easy.

big shootas and flamers don't scare suits at all.

Power weapons scare suits use but if your suits are in CC you have bigger problems than what your opponent is hitting you with. Like how you let them get into CC with your suits in the first place.

never I am better at that

Wasn't talking to you.