5.0 Tactica - Tau Empire

[Mozzamanx]

Dragging this up a couple of pages, I'd love to know how Tau work in smaller games, between 750 and 1000pts. It seems like our firepower really reaches ridiculous proportions, packing the same number of heavy weapons as a list twice its size.

I'm particularly keen on 750pt Doubles advice. I'm entering a tournament alongside a friends Imperial Air Cavalry list, and although I've elected to use Dark Angels, I can't help but think how the Tau would perform in the same situation.

I would imagine Pathfinders are fairly unecessary at such tight values, while Crisis teams become worth their weight in gold. A pair of Railguns should also see you through most anti-tank situations.


The tournament rules state that you must have 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS before you can take a second option. IE- if you want 2 Fireknife squads, you must also have an FA and HS choice to back them up. My partner is taking 2 FA choices and an Elite, so that affects the slots available. He is also providing 3 scoring units, which should be just about enough.
The 750pt list I was considering consists of a Fireknife Shas'El, 6 Fireknife suits (2x3 or 3x2?), obligatory 6 Fire Warriors, a Hammerhead Gunship and single Broadside. Unfortunately I don't have the points for Drone protection or a squad of Kroot. An option is to remove the Hammerhead and replace with another single Broadside, then put the spare points into a Kroot unit. Potentially cut a single Fireknife and add Drones to each squad.

Would this be a viable list for such a small game?

[samiens]

I played the following Tau half with my finacees eldar at Champion of Champions Doubles and we came third:

Shas'el with Plasma rifle, missile pod and fusion blaster with m/t
2 fire knife suits (I like to have a team leader with a targetting array for reliability)
2 deathrains
6 fire warriors
4 pathfinders and devilfish
1 fusion piranha
1 broadside

worked pretty well with the eldar str 6 skimmer spam, and I see know reason why it wouldn't support a vendetta rush equally well. The pathfinders were actually vital- there's even less at a doubles tourney that can stand up to suddenly losing armour saves or BS 5 crisis suits

As an aside, I took Tau to the UK ToS (and won the tau competition with 4 wins- though I needed favourite army votes to overcome another Tau player who had 4 wins and a draw with a 50 kroot list- but I would have loved his opponents too) and due to my lack of painted kroot had just one unit of 10 kroot and 3x6 man units of firewarriors- who were absolute stars (their best scalp was Astorath the Grim) and just wondered if anyone else had tried this much? It sounds like a kill point drain but I rolled kill points 3 times and only lost once (to a blood angels list where all I needed were 2 fireknives to break one tank to wipe him- they failed despite assaulting it as well!) as they were pretty easy to keep alive.

[SageoftheTimes]

Dragging this up a couple of pages, I'd love to know how Tau work in smaller games, between 750 and 1000pts. It seems like our firepower really reaches ridiculous proportions, packing the same number of heavy weapons as a list twice its size.

A lot of forces do. Crons can do some interesting stuff, Orks can Horde it up, Tau can produce tons of fire.

I'm particularly keen on 750pt Doubles advice. I'm entering a tournament alongside a friends Imperial Air Cavalry list, and although I've elected to use Dark Angels, I can't help but think how the Tau would perform in the same situation.

I'm not familiar with DA, but aren't they in pretty bad shape these days? Rines in general usually have high troops costs, thus limiting what you can do in sub-1500 games. Tau, however, have 60 for firewarriors, 70 for kroot, and you're golden. 750 is something of a tight list, but it shouldn't be too hard to get something together.

I would imagine Pathfinders are fairly unecessary at such tight values, while Crisis teams become worth their weight in gold. A pair of Railguns should also see you through most anti-tank situations.

You'd be correct. Pathfinders only shine from 1500 to 2k (below you don't have the points, above they're too easily killed in a turn). Two broadsides is a decent choice, although more suits is probably a better one. You probably wont see too much high AV there (nothing land-raider wise). Two broadsides at very most.

The tournament rules state that you must have 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS before you can take a second option. IE- if you want 2 Fireknife squads, you must also have an FA and HS choice to back them up.

You're going to have to shove as many models into a slot as possible, then, FA basically has Piranhas and Pathfinders available, the former being ~70-75 points (FB + TA w/ optional Pods) and the latter being 133 points min (4 Finders + Fish w/ Pods). I'd suggest two groups of suits here, you probably wont have space for more, with one Piranha for blocking & possibly popping transports, along with a broadside.

My partner is taking 2 FA choices and an Elite, so that affects the slots available. He is also providing 3 scoring units, which should be just about enough.

Well then, if it's a max of 3 Elite/FA/HS per team, 2 elites, 1 FA, and a HS would do quite well, right?

The 750pt list I was considering consists of a Fireknife Shas'El, 6 Fireknife suits (2x3 or 3x2?), obligatory 6 Fire Warriors, a Hammerhead Gunship and single Broadside. Unfortunately I don't have the points for Drone protection or a squad of Kroot. An option is to remove the Hammerhead and replace with another single Broadside, then put the spare points into a Kroot unit. Potentially cut a single Fireknife and add Drones to each squad.

Yeah, your general idea is a good one. Your FWs will basically stand back somewhere, preferably behind BLOS terrain w/ an objective. You can't even afford a Fish for them at this points level. Just try to keep them away from everything, or use them to help build a castle vs. infiltrating units (Wolf Scouts can infiltrate from any table edge, so do be careful). They're just there to score, and will probably die if they try to do anything important.

You mentioned limitations on the FoC choices, based on what your partner picked. If you can only both take 3 Elite/FA/HS total, just take two groups of suits. I'd suggest the broadsides being in two different groups, because it'll make them slightly more durable. It seems like you can really only get the points for 2 Elite slots, so cram as many suits into that squad as possible. I really don't like Hammerheads. The railgun is nice, but begs to be missed, the Large Blast is nice enough, but isn't AP 3.... It's 165 points min (with relevant bling) for something that should be in a troops choice. Here's what I'd go for:
Shas'el w/ TL-Missile Pods, Target Lock - 73
3 x Fireknife - 184
2 x Fireknife - 124
Fire warriors x 6 - 60
Kroot x 10 - 70
Piranha w/ Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array - 70
Broadside w/ SMS, ASS - 80
Broadside w/ SMS, ASS - 80
743/750

You can probably swap some things around, give one Broadside a Targeting array for the extra hitting power, and so on. Toss the leader in with a broadside for the extra Leadership, although be careful about moving the leader in the movement phase if it's with a TA Broadside, the unit will count as having moved, and the broadside wont be able to fire.

But this is just a basic list, lets talk about your partner's list too. The thing about doubles is you need to focus on each-other's strengths/weaknesses, and compliment eachother. So, guard brings plenty of mid-strength shots, as well as Lascannons (TL no less) on the Air Cav (I assume 2 fliers, maybe 3, w/ squads of their own). General idea with these two groups is that you castle up on an objective or two, de-meching as much as possible. You're probably going to fall more to an anti-infantry role, while your partner will charge in and drop his squads in decent places, then torrent the hell out of something.

Would this be a viable list for such a small game?

What you outlined would be decent. Hammerheads are pretty expensive, but it does give a Large Blast. Keep in mind it'll cause ~5 wounds a turn on Marines that are clustered together, if it hits, but the important things to do here are target vehicles, not buff your anti-infantry.

Samiens:
I played the following Tau half with my finacees eldar at Champion of Champions Doubles and we came third:

Shas'el with Plasma rifle, missile pod and fusion blaster with m/t

probably better just to spend the FB points on more suits, preferably Fireknife.

2 fire knife suits (I like to have a team leader with a targetting array for reliability)

More shots is the name of the game here. Team leader + TA is 1/4 of a suit, which will most likely dish out more punishment then a TA. Trimming this off would allow for the Deathrains to be turned into Fireknifes. Deathrains are ok but we're not looking for a cheaper option here. He's spending plenty just to get suits, and has a limited number to grab. Fireknife will out-perform deathrain in all but anti-vehicle, and at that point, you need a Broadside.

2 deathrains
6 fire warriors
4 pathfinders and devilfish
1 fusion piranha
1 broadside

As I said before, the Finders w/ Fish are extremely pricy for what they give, especially in a situation where you want to maximize your firepower. We're talking about two Fireknives, plus a bit of bling for something else for the cost of them. Beyond that, this is an average list, although deathrains, beyond as a cost-saving measure for your HQ, aren't great.

worked pretty well with the eldar str 6 skimmer spam, and I see no reason why it wouldn't support a vendetta rush equally well. The pathfinders were actually vital- there's even less at a doubles tourney that can stand up to suddenly losing armour saves or BS 5 crisis suits

You mean cover saves & the extra BS. You'll get ~ 2 tokens a turn, enough to make cover 6+ or BS 5 on one team. It's nice, but additional suits means you'll get more shots anyways. If you really wanted to grab the Pathfinders, you'd lose 2-3 suits, so be careful.

As an aside, I took Tau to the UK ToS (and won the tau competition with 4 wins- though I needed favourite army votes to overcome another Tau player who had 4 wins and a draw with a 50 kroot list- but I would have loved his opponents too) and due to my lack of painted kroot had just one unit of 10 kroot and 3x6 man units of firewarriors- who were absolute stars (their best scalp was Astorath the Grim) and just wondered if anyone else had tried this much? It sounds like a kill point drain but I rolled kill points 3 times and only lost once (to a blood angels list where all I needed were 2 fireknives to break one tank to wipe him- they failed despite assaulting it as well!) as they were pretty easy to keep alive.

Firewarriors are actually a drain on points. If you look at stark mathhammer (something to take in moderation), Kroot out-shoot Firewarriors. That said, Kroot are just as fragile, and are better used as bubble-wrap.

Toss us some info about your partner's list, and we can really take a look at what you're doing here.

[samiens]

Should be pointed out I placed at both these tournaments- the lists weren't exactly bad! Its also worth noting that firewarriors bubble wrap ok, have a 4+ save and did a good job- not sure I would take them if I had enough kroot available though!

Disagree on 2 counts on your critique:

The shas'el has always been an absolute star- in thr tourney that fusion blaster was a really useful weapon to have in my back pocket (in TOS nailed 2 tanks in 2 turns and in doubles killing MCs was much easier with that extra high str high AP shot instead of firing the missile pod)

The battlesuit set up is unusual (not sure on the deathrains either but I only had so much time to upgun) with the team leader but there is a big difference between hitting on 3s and hitting on 4s- and it works well with markers. Its also worth noting that in the doubles, that we could have saved all of 27 points from the fusion blaster and taking away my 3+ shooting- or in my ToS 1500 point list where there is another unit I'd have saved 42 points- not enough for even one more suit- so we can agree to disagree as I will keep my more reliable shooting!

As for the pathfinders in the doubles- there were 2 thoughts- we needed the extra fast attack choice and as mentioned the markers really helped, while the devilfish kept the firewarriors alive and kicking.

My fiancees doubles list was eldar:

Farseer with guide
5 fire dragons inc exarch with firepike
Wave serpent with twin scatter lasers and spirit stones, shuricannon upgrade
5 dire avengers
Wave serpent with twin scatter lasers and spirit stone, shuricannon upgrade
5 dire avengers
falcon, scatter laser, spirit stones, holofields, shuricannon upgrade

[SageoftheTimes]

Should be pointed out I placed at both these tournaments- the lists weren't exactly bad! Its also worth noting that firewarriors bubble wrap ok, have a 4+ save and did a good job- not sure I would take them if I had enough kroot available though!

The point of bubblewrap is to die on the charge so they don't last till your assault phase, thus allowing your opponent's assaulting forces immunity. Aka, you want them to die. Having a save prevents this.

Disagree on 2 counts on your critique:

The shas'el has always been an absolute star- in the tourney that fusion blaster was a really useful weapon to have in my back pocket (in TOS nailed 2 tanks in 2 turns and in doubles killing MCs was much easier with that extra high str high AP shot instead of firing the missile pod)

Low-points games are different then medium-high points, and while Fusion is nice, more suits is nicer. You said you only had one broadside and two Fireknife suits (not including the leader), so OF COURSE you had to have your leader going after vehicles and MCs, you didn't spam enough fireknife due to the Pathfinders/Deathrains. This isn't to say it didn't work, it's just it wasn't the most optimal set-up for the points.

Mozzaman came here for an optimal set-up. All we know so far is that he has a partner, so I gave him a list with one bubblewrap unit, Firewarriors, and as much firepower as I could cram in there. I somehow don't think this will do badly, but until I hear anything more about lists (his partner's) or the Tourney's rules, how can I do better then this?

The battlesuit set up is unusual (not sure on the deathrains either but I only had so much time to upgun) with the team leader but there is a big difference between hitting on 3s and hitting on 4s- and it works well with markers. Its also worth noting that in the doubles, that we could have saved all of 27 points from the fusion blaster and taking away my 3+ shooting- or in my ToS 1500 point list where there is another unit I'd have saved 42 points- not enough for even one more suit- so we can agree to disagree as I will keep my more reliable shooting!

Ah, so you only have 5 suits? Remember I was suggesting the removal of Finders + all that, for a total of 160 points, enough to upgrade the deathrains, grab another suit, grab another broadside, plus kroot. I think that an extra turn of shooting from what I suggested is worth it (that's what a unit of bubblewrap provides, after all).

As for the pathfinders in the doubles- there were 2 thoughts- we needed the extra fast attack choice and as mentioned the markers really helped, while the devilfish kept the firewarriors alive and kicking.

Only Tau units, specifically the Tau race & Vespid units with their commander still around can benefit from Markerlights. Differences in technology and all that. Same with the Farseer, on all except Doom (it acts till the end of the Eldar turn, and since you're taking a turn at the same time.....), requires an Eldar unit, unless the TO allows it. That said, beyond denying cover, there's not much it could really do, beyond buff the Fire Dragons.

My fiancees doubles list was eldar:

Farseer with guide
5 fire dragons inc exarch with firepike
Wave serpent with twin scatter lasers and spirit stones, shuricannon upgrade
5 dire avengers
Wave serpent with twin scatter lasers and spirit stone, shuricannon upgrade
5 dire avengers
falcon, scatter laser, spirit stones, holofields, shuricannon upgrade

Hmmm, not much you can do with the list, beyond maybe dropping the stones on the wave serpents (they're basically there to take a location, and thus don't need to reduce stunned to shaken), the scatter lasers to shuriken cannons (MAYBE, although I understand that ranged S6 fire is nice, even though it's expensive as hell), and dumping the Falcon for a Fire Prism or something (just guesstimating at this point, there's probably not enough points for anything decent). I'm not too used to Eldar, but everything in their codex is so damned expensive (nearly Grey Knights expensive)....Low-points games are better suited to IG, BA (maybe), and Tau. Eldar have a hard-enough time of it without such limiting constraints on their points, but good to know you two did well.

That said, I think his list would be better suited just to go the MOAR DAKKA approach, considering that's what Tau does well. Two units of Fireknives can generally make any MC cry at medium/close range, and grabbing pathfinders + bling wont erase the lack of firepower here, unless he's specifically supporting something his partner already covers. Now, if the TO is a-ok with pathfinders effecting all units, and they can model both lists to complement each-other well like that, more power to them, but so far, we don't even know what the IG player is bringing.

[Col. Dash]

Has anyone tried any of the XV-9 configurations? I just picked up a team armed with PIGs, hoping 24 potentially rending shots will do something to marines.

What about the new commander guy? He looks big and imposing and has decent rules although a high points pricetag. Anyone given him a try yet?

[samiens]

Sage of the times- I'm not sure why but I think you aren't really getting our list (which came third at the tournament for the record). So a few points:

Its worth noting that the eldar tanks put out 21 str 6 shots at 24" with 2 str 8 shots and quite possibly the fire dragons melting something- hardly a lightweight combination! Spirit stones is vital- if you can't move you can't contest, plus you need to hide to maximise your firepower next turn if you can't shoot.

I absolutely agree that I would drop the deathrains (didn't have any more to hand) but I would not drop the 15 point upgrades that let you play wound allocation with your suits and make one of the 2 suits in the unit hit on 3s- that's a massive buff (even more vital if you drop the pathfinders).

Its important to note that in most doubles, you need extra fast attack and heavy support to take extra elites (as in this case). We wanted the devilfish to protect the fire warriors so really, we dropped 40 points on the pathfinders (taking into account my model limitations at the time)

No, the rules did not cross over- but presumably you can see how markers helped the commander with the fireknives- there's a lot of firepower suddenly hitting on 2s or removing cover- particuarly effective at 750 each doubles.

Last but not least, firepower is only effective when it hits- you can play the numbers game but there is room to make sure more fireknives hit than going for volume (as were talking about a very small points outlay).

Finally, my list was an example of something we took that worked- and I even suggested where I would alter it. I don't agree with the 'optimal list' entirely (although the config on my suits is the only change- bearing in mind I would drop the deathrains)

[Hokiecow]

@Samiens: Congratulations on you and fiancee placing third!

What was the total # of points you both had to bring?

[samiens]

It was 750 each (so a total of 1500 points- it was the Champion of Chapions doubles hosted by spiky club in Reading Uk). The army worked really well (wwe scored over 1000 victory points in each game and gave away less than 750 each time- think we had the second highest vp total) and we were one turn away from a potentially game winning tak shock in the game we drew.

the list was not perfect (The eldar would have dropped the exarch on the Fire Dragons for runes of warding on the farseer), in particular its worth mentioning that I would try and go twin fireknife (though with the unpopular BS 4 team leader in each) and try and get a hammerhead over the broadside, probably sacrificing the pathfinders to do it- but it really depends on teh composition rules.

Incidentally, I was doing the maths earlier on the fire knife vs fire knife with team leader upgrade and if you sacrifice one suit (from the usual 9) to upgrade to 3 team leaders (with a few points to spare) I'm pretty sure they are statistically similar at rapid fire range, and the team leader style is slightly better at longer than rapid fire range (of course, that isn't where I would fund the team leader upgrades from either)- just some food for thought

[SageoftheTimes]

Has anyone tried any of the XV-9 configurations? I just picked up a team armed with PIGs, hoping 24 potentially rending shots will do something to marines.

It's suits in Fast Attacks, that's a plus. That said, Pathfinders & Piranhas inhabit this spot, so we're going to have to put our thinking caps on here. Alright, so, XV-9s. If it's BS 3, you're missing with half, so that's 12 shots, 6 of which will wound....Are you using Fireknife suits, btw? They deal decently with marines. The XV-9 weapons deal decently with stuff, and although they are expensive, they've got T 5, and Hit & Run allows for possible retreat after a charge. My suggestion is proxy before you buy, but understand that you're giving up something for them.

What about the new commander guy? He looks big and imposing and has decent rules although a high points pricetag. Anyone given him a try yet?

He's expensive and most of his gun choices suck. That said, there are two good choices in there. Also, he has cloaking only when he doesn't move, aka, destroying mobility. If he had cloak all the time, with better guns, and a bit less of a price, sure, but for now, he's a 'fun' choice.

Sage of the times- I'm not sure why but I think you aren't really getting our list (which came third at the tournament for the record). So a few points:

I know that. I just think that aiming higher is a better idea here. I'm not saying your list is bad, it's average to above, but are we aiming for above average here, or best?

Its worth noting that the eldar tanks put out 21 str 6 shots at 24" with 2 str 8 shots and quite possibly the fire dragons melting something- hardly a lightweight combination! Spirit stones is vital- if you can't move you can't contest, plus you need to hide to maximise your firepower next turn if you can't shoot.

I'm just saying it might better to drop one or two of them, if you don't need to move forward with them. Clearly you do, so...yeah, keep them. And yes, I know Eldar do S 6 well, but I'm not sure if the Falcon or Scatter Lasers are the best choice of points. I don't play Eldar, so these are guesstimates.

I absolutely agree that I would drop the deathrains (didn't have any more to hand) but I would not drop the 15 point upgrades that let you play wound allocation with your suits and make one of the 2 suits in the unit hit on 3s- that's a massive buff (even more vital if you drop the pathfinders).

You only need a team leader for wound allocation. Different load-out, aka different point cost, means a different model.

Its important to note that in most doubles, you need extra fast attack and heavy support to take extra elites (as in this case). We wanted the devilfish to protect the fire warriors so really, we dropped 40 points on the pathfinders (taking into account my model limitations at the time)

From what I understand, you need 1 FA & HS choice to take 2 elites choices. Please tell me if I read this incorrectly. And it's 48 + 85 points.

In the end, there's no great choice for troops with Tau/Eldar, although Eldar can at least shoot better. Maybe Rangers for the cover save (I'm really grasping at straws, and yes I understand how expensive they are). At such low points, and playing w/ IG, our friend doesn't have this problem. A Chimera + token troops is dirt-cheap for them, although I can understand why you did it. There's no good answer here, Tau and Eldar suffer from high vehicle costs.

No, the rules did not cross over- but presumably you can see how markers helped the commander with the fireknives- there's a lot of firepower suddenly hitting on 2s or removing cover- particuarly effective at 750 each doubles.

But with the Fish in addition, it's sucking up too many points. I'd rather have the suits, you'd rather have the protection. It's a choice we'd each make, but that said, firepower goes a longer way then protection. There's a certain amount of stuff you can get to give yourself survivability, but firepower is what you are always investing in. I prefer to just ramp it up beyond what most other armies will be able to get. It should fit well with the Air-Cav list, as well.

Last but not least, firepower is only effective when it hits- you can play the numbers game but there is room to make sure more fireknives hit than going for volume (as were talking about a very small points outlay).

I was able to grab an extra Broadside, 2 more fireknives, and some kroot for my test list. I think that's a reasonable exchange, and 4 pathfinders will only allow 3 suits to be BS 5 or -2 cover on average (based on your list). I'd LIKE to be able to fit in Pathfinders, but the opportunity cost of grabbing the Fish is too much in this instance.

Finally, my list was an example of something we took that worked- and I even suggested where I would alter it. I don't agree with the 'optimal list' entirely (although the config on my suits is the only change- bearing in mind I would drop the deathrains)

What you have is balanced list. It works reasonably well, getting you 3rd place. Going below 1500 guarantees that some armies will scale better then others. If you can grab 1500 level firepower at 750, you're ahead of your opponent. And yes, you list works. But will it work as well as Mozzaman would want. This is why I said we should wait for him/her to post again, we've heard nothing from them.

the list was not perfect (The eldar would have dropped the exarch on the Fire Dragons for runes of warding on the farseer), in particular its worth mentioning that I would try and go twin fireknife (though with the unpopular BS 4 team leader in each) and try and get a hammerhead over the broadside, probably sacrificing the pathfinders to do it- but it really depends on teh composition rules.

I want to quote this part of Samiens' post for several reasons. First, it's interesting to see the changes in the Eldar list, something he didn't discuss with me. Secondly, it's interesting to see the changes to the Fireknives (the TA is not something I'd put in, but no one's saying he can't, possibly it seems like I'm 'coming on too strong'?). Finally, there's the Broadside -> HH change. The third is an interesting thing, and not quite one I'd support, unless you have S 8-10 and/or melta weaponry everywhere. Anti-tank is key, and dropping the broadside, a reliable choice, for something less reliable (Hammerhead) is probably not the best decision. Yes, you can move the HH to ignore cover, but a 3+ shot begs to be missed. That said, those with golden dice should note that the HH can be a lot more durable then Broadsides (although I don't find this to be the case), as well as a useful piece of cover for Crisis suits. But cutting out Broadsides entirely can lead to a deficiency of anti-vehicle shots, something dangerous. Be careful with Broadside/Hammerhead balance.

Incidentally, I was doing the maths earlier on the fire knife vs fire knife with team leader upgrade and if you sacrifice one suit (from the usual 9) to upgrade to 3 team leaders (with a few points to spare) I'm pretty sure they are statistically similar at rapid fire range, and the team leader style is slightly better at longer than rapid fire range (of course, that isn't where I would fund the team leader upgrades from either)- just some food for thought

It's pretty simple math, actually. They both have similar profiles. So you're subtracting one full suit to give three other suits better hit rates. One suit hits 50% of the time, three other suits get 16.6% better hit rates. So, they're equal. But you get more models, aka, more wounds from an additional suit. So you're buying more durability. You also have to manage that durability, because your suits need to be in range, so keep that in mind. But it's not automatically better. It gets worse w/ two leaders, though, so remember that bling is not automatically better then more models, just nearly as at the top end of the spectrum.

[samiens]

But the fact is we're now talking about the absolute cutting edge- and in a typical 1500/1750 point list, I want to spend 45 points to make 3 of my 9 suits hit on 3s rather than 4s- the reality is I'll take it from kroot or pathfinders by losing a couple per squad-but its a preference thing- there is no right and wrong- we absolutrely agree on the basic shape of the list.

Doubles is a different game entirely. I play Eldar quite a lot and can say they are quite brutal- putting out 21 str 6 shots a turn is serious anti-tank in a 750 half (plus 2 str 8 just for fun)- the 60 point scoring unit upgrade per tank is a real bonus- plus a scoring unit you can actually expect to survive the game! Add in 10 str 7 and plasma rifle shots from the Tau battelsuits and anything less than AV 14 should never reach your lines (and that's where the railguns/fire dragons excel).

The key to building a great doubles list is exploiting the fact you can take the best elements of two armies and merge them in a synergistic way. Air cavalry Imperial Guard excel at bringing decent amounts of very high strength firepower to the table, combined with, usually, hideously well equipped veterans. You can therefore question how much you need to bubblewrap- the fact is that those valkyries/vendettas, much like Eldar grav tanks, are likely to form your vanguard. Therefore, the key thing is probably to cover off the gaps in the vendettas shooting (as Tau have more flexible loadouts).

The difficulty between broadsides and hammerheads is that you need to lose something that you would always have in a pure Tau list- and with melta veterans for IG or fire dragons for eldar, you have a preponderance of melta (plus I have one on my commander ) so you can more afford to skrimp on the railguns than your mech overload in my opinion

[Col. Dash]

I do not use FireKnives. I believe in specializing my suits so my three teams are Deathrain, Helios, and Bladestorms. All can overlap into other fields if need be, but are very specialized in their primary jobs. This has worked out well for me in the past. If I have the points I toss in a Fire Knife team as well since I dont have my 3rd elite slot filled.

[SageoftheTimes]

But the fact is we're now talking about the absolute cutting edge- and in a typical 1500/1750 point list, I want to spend 45 points to make 3 of my 9 suits hit on 3s rather than 4s- the reality is I'll take it from kroot or pathfinders by losing a couple per squad-but its a preference thing- there is no right and wrong- we absolutrely agree on the basic shape of the list.

So we're at the cutting edge, but there is no right or wrong here? Look, you either get two wounds, or have to deal with getting less suits in cover.

Doubles is a different game entirely.

Yep. Each list needs to work with the other, to cover what the other army isn't good at. Which is why we probably should wait to see what the IG player is bringing. I'm sure we can find things to agree about in that list, at least.

I play Eldar quite a lot and can say they are quite brutal- putting out 21 str 6 shots a turn is serious anti-tank in a 750 half (plus 2 str 8 just for fun)

Glancing AV 12 is not anti-tank. Anti-tank weaponry is S8 or higher, preferably w/ melta/lance at 8, or spammable at S9. S 7 and down is anti-infantry, with the ability to take out Rhinos or somthing.

the 60 point scoring unit upgrade per tank is a real bonus- plus a scoring unit you can actually expect to survive the game!

Not quite sure what you're talking about with this. Towards Tau troops, I find my Devilfishes just wont die, but oh no, that Hammerhead's going down, fast (insert funny joke about hookers here). As a Tau player fighting enemy vehicles, I beg to differ, but ok.

Add in 10 str 7 and plasma rifle shots from the Tau battelsuits and anything less than AV 14 should never reach your lines (and that's where the railguns/fire dragons excel).

S 10 is for anything AV 12 and above. Because you've gotta hit, then pen, THEN roll on the damage chart. You want consistency, and broadsides give that. TAs on the leader are ineffective till all of your slots are filled. This makes it so that you'd rather bring more troops, rather then making a hero type unit. As for those shots, remember that you're suggesting less suits & less broadsides, not more. Now it's fine if you test this yourself, but suggesting that others take this....better to go with what's reliable, and grab a couple of broadsides. And provide some examples if you want to explain why you feel HHs would better serve an anti-tank role (opposing lists, and the ability to de-mech them quickly, and so on).

The key to building a great doubles list is exploiting the fact you can take the best elements of two armies and merge them in a synergistic way.

There's also the downside that you have to pay the opportunity cost of 2 HQs + 4 Troops, if any of these are expensive and/or not worth taking (disregard if they're cheap enough and worth taking), but yeah, the bonus is there.

Air cavalry Imperial Guard excel at bringing decent amounts of very high strength firepower to the table, combined with, usually, hideously well equipped veterans.

I'll agree with you there, the IG player is probably going to bring two fliers, which means 4 TL-ed Las Cannons. Still, the Broadsides can grab something else, and more suits means more anti-infantry. But yeah, one broadside might be enough in this instance, but the pathfinders aren't buffing enough (generally, I find they're worth it in groups of 6+, or when you have two groups) to offset the loss of the extra suits. You're buffing your firepower, sure, but you're not buffing the number of models available. More models means more stuff to take down, and that's important.

You can therefore question how much you need to bubblewrap- the fact is that those valkyries/vendettas, much like Eldar grav tanks, are likely to form your vanguard. Therefore, the key thing is probably to cover off the gaps in the vendettas shooting (as Tau have more flexible loadouts).

Ok, I need to define bubblewrap. Bubblewrap is to stop units from assaulting your squishy infantry which is terribad at assault. And deep-striking or out-flanking units can make short work of your army if you don't have it. How-Tos for Bubblewrap and Blocking can be found here.

The difficulty between broadsides and hammerheads is that you need to lose something that you would always have in a pure Tau list- and with melta veterans for IG or fire dragons for eldar, you have a preponderance of melta (plus I have one on my commander ) so you can more afford to skrimp on the railguns than your mech overload in my opinion

Eh, I'd rather have Broadsides + Dragons, because I'd, on average, have a Piranha + Sides at 1500. But that's what I provide for de-meching armies that regularlly have 6 or more vehicles. Plus, a HH will take up over twice the points of a Broadside, so what do you lose to gain it, and what do you gain from a HH that you can't get else-where? A long range large blast? Mobile Cover? It's a lot to spend at such a low points level.

I do not use FireKnives. I believe in specializing my suits so my three teams are Deathrain, Fireforge, and Bladestorms. All can overlap into other fields if need be, but are very specialized in their primary jobs. This has worked out well for me in the past. If I have the points I toss in a Fire Knife team as well since I dont have my 3rd elite slot filled.

So, that's TL-MPs, TL-Plasma, and TL-BCs? I don't usually use abbreviations beyond Fireknife beyond that very reason, because there's no automatic list that shows what they mean, that I know of. That said, you're basically paying a bit less points for half the shots, that are twin-linked. This is a bad deal. But if you win with it/do fine with them, that's fine for you. If you want someone else to use them, explain why they put out enough firepower, against specific forces.

[samiens]

Sage- I'm starting to think that we are talking a completely different language (not literally obviously!). For the record, I understand bubble wrapping and blocking rather well (while its obviously just anecdotal evidence, of my last 4 tournaments I've won 2, placed third and won the Tau section at Throne of Skulls) so posting the guides feels a little condescending- even though they are rather good guides that I have read and would recommend to any newcomers.

Now lets just talk about Tau, we'll come on to doubles in a minute:

Its worth noting that there are 3 ways of stopping an enemy unit assaulting your Tau- blocking (which can be aggressive as in this tutorial, or passive- which is pretty similar to bubblewrapping), bubblewrapping and simply not being in charge range- the last one gets kind of ignored as its so basic but is vital in actual games. You only need one effective estoppel at a time- so you don't need to sit in your bubblewrap all game.

I love it when an enemy deep strikes, outflanks or whatever because it makes it even easier to take the enemy apart piece by piece- so long as you are set bup properly its just not a problem for a competent list.

You also have to be far more aggressive than the internet suggests if we want to actually take/contest objectives.

We totally disagree on anti-tank. You need str 6 and 7 to supress light tanks- which often tears them open anyway. strength 8/9 is necessary for AV 13 (but aside from monoliths, land raiders and russes its easy to find an angle on a lesser armour facing). Strength 10/lance/melta is vital for av 14 only (although its obviously great for smashing lesser armour as well). Heck, once its immobilised, str 4 in the form of charging kroot will eventually kill most tanks- and then why waste high strength shots?

The fact is you don't need to kill tanks anyway, merely halt their effectiveness.

I stick by the solidarity of wound allocation tricks with team leader and targetting arrays (Its worth noting that just being a team leader isn't enough for wound allocation as the models are identical in game terms- much like space marine terminator assault sergeants) and the way it makes markerlights more effective- but we can agree to disagree.

In many ways I think its indicative of a bizarre Tau internet thing where anything even slightly different is derided- I use this upgrade because I've tried it, succeeded with it and suggest other people try it.

Right on to doubles:

Doubles isn't a low points game- its a 1500 point list chosen from 2 codexes. 1500 points is not a small game. You don't build 2 small lists you build 1 combined list (and in most doubles you only need 1 HQ and 1 troops in each half- so the opportunity cost is that of 1 HQ).

However, there are some differences- its harder to take more of the heavy stuff thanks to the composition rules- chances are if you face 2 land raiders there is very little else in teh list you are facing- and to me 5 fire dragons, a single railgun and a (much maligned) fusion blaster will likely at least neuter 2 av 14 vehicles (and more likely obliterate them). In my experience, that extra mobile cover in the form of the hammerhead, and the dual purpose would be a better buy than 2 broadsides- but I would test it before settling.

The 60 point scoring unit upgrade referred to Dire Avengers in a wave serpent and the almost indestructable falcon (apologies for the confusion). That said, I would want my fire warriors in a devilfish if possible.

Finally, on the bubblewrap issue- parking a falcon in front of your squishy infantry works just as well as a kroot unit (you can also bubble wrap with fire warriors, battlesuits and, if you're clever, 2 gun drones)- its not all about large kroot units. what's more- you won't always need to bubblewrap at all!

Fundamentally, we disgaree on many issues- anti-tank, the felxibility of battlesuit set ups and how to build doubles armies. What I do hope is that this discussion is helping the original query by showing different approached

[Col. Dash]

Most Tau players who do any kind of online stuff know the names to a degree, and I would be surprised if they were not covered earlier in the thread as they are pretty standardized. Admittingly I only know a few of the massive configuration names.
Deathrain is TL Missile Pods, and support systems. I typically use flamers.
Helios fusion blaster and plasma gun. I put in a Multitracker as well.
BladeStorm Burst Cannon and plasma gun. I throw the CIB on the unit leader too instead of the BC and thus the name changes.
Fireknife as you know is the Plasmagun/ missile pod version.
Heatwave TL flamers(alternate backup squad for me)
The Deathrain, Helios, and the Fireknives are by far the most common suits you see on the table.

[samiens]

Suits are a tricky one. Firstly, let me say I totally endorse the fire knife set up- its good against most things, has a long effective range and is vital against against things that you might struggle to kill with volume of fire like terminators and things with feel no pain.

However, there is no reason why some of the other suit options might not work for an individual's player style, so i'll share my thoughts on the above- though I tend notr to use anything other than fire knife and deathrain. It is worth saying, however, that by mixing suit types you give your opponent the opportunity to assassinate the unit that most worries him- redundancy maintains your threat level better.

Deathrain: I too run these with flamers- 3 flamers can really make a mess of things like orks and guard in cover near the end of the game- so much more useful than blacksun filters for 1 point extra per model- especially when suits already have acute senses. Otherwise this is decent anti-armour/suppression and reasonable torrent of fire on a cheap frame. This was almost the suit of choice at the beginning of 5th when infantry were a bit sparse but light tanks had just started popping up everywhere.

Helios: This is great up close and personal (my multi-kit commander fire like this a large amount of the time) and allows you to smash heavy units when they get close. The issues with this suit is that it really doesn't do a lot from range and without targeting array team leaders desperately needs markerlights to make it work- 1 1/2 melta hits isn't up to much unfortunately. Still, this is terminator bane so shouldn't be entirely ruled out.

Bladestorm: The big issue with this is that its surely competing with the fireknife- and there aren't too many situations where 3 str 5 shots trump 2 str 7 shots. To look at the maths against T4 (bladestorms preferred target)- a unit of 3 bladestorm suits will get 3 plasma hits and 4.5 str 5 hits- leading to around 2.5 ap 2 wounds and 3 ap 5 wounds. Deathrains will get 3 str 7 hits and obviously the same plasma hits- giving 2.5 AP 4 wounds and 2.5 plasma wounds- so not a lot in it. When you add in the range and tank killing power of the missile pod- and the fact burst cannons drop off quickly as toughness increases its a hard sell. The CIB is interesting but basically makes the unit anti-infantry (as getting too many non AP 2 hits actually means you are likely to kill less models where wound allocation plays a part). If you really want additional anti-infantry, I'd recommend aggressive kroot or fire warriors (maybe even stealth suits- although that's another debate)

Fireknife is great, engages a variety of units effectively and the tournament standard- enough said?

Heatwave: Often paired with a missile pod, this just seems backwards to me- if 3 flamer templates aren't enough then maybe the rest of your list needs work- or you are in a tonm of trouble. Plus, most Tau players (if not all) play to keep the enemy as far away as possible for as long as possible- meaning you're not getting a lot from the unit. The deathrain flmaer set up gives you a nice weapon of opportunity- this seems to me to just give you a subpar unit except in situations you will strive to avoid.

There is one more I see (which likely has an indecipherable name which I forget- melty melty perhaps?) which is twin linked fusion blasters (with a variety of extra equipment from targeting arrays, drones, shields to opportunity weapons like flamers and missile pods) . This is great( if unnecessary if you are packing the standard 4+ railguns) at deep striking and melting a tank- and then it flounders and dies- maybe its worth it in a very non-standard list- but not for me.

Its worth noting, however, that battlesuits are great and its about what works for you, and what your army (which might be the internet cut and paste or might not be) needs- you'll do best by picking the configuation that you get the most out of- not just by taking the internet's choice- although the fireknife is a fantastic weapon all the same.

[Tastyfish]

Isn't Firestorm a standard as well? In these days of near universal cover saves (and the distance you want to be) I think the burst cannon/missile pod variant is a competitor for the Fireknife. Missile pods are too good to lose, but at 12" plus 3 S5 is comparable to 1 S6 with no save.

I'd definitely take Fireknives for a first choice, as they are such good all-rounders, however my second choice would always be Firestorms since they are cheaper and work as slightly better all-rounders (they just lack the extra MEq killing power within 12" should things get desperate).

[SageoftheTimes]

Sage- I'm starting to think that we are talking a completely different language (not literally obviously!).

Well, you haven't really responded to my explanations of the efficiency of putting targeting arrays on your team leaders, along with several other arguments, so yeah, I can understand that feeling. And I keep asking you to wait for this guy to post again, but it seems like our fighting might have scared him off. That said, hopefully he's just staring at us, and will respond eventually.

For the record, I understand bubble wrapping and blocking rather well (while its obviously just anecdotal evidence, of my last 4 tournaments I've won 2, placed third and won the Tau section at Throne of Skulls) so posting the guides feels a little condescending- even though they are rather good guides that I have read and would recommend to any newcomers.

Look, I have no idea how well you know the game. Just because you've won tournies doesn't mean you know everything. You just know more then someone else. But you've done reasonably well. I don't have battle reports of this, obviously, so I can't really get a sense of how well you play. Still, you placed well, so you have something going for you.

Now lets just talk about Tau, we'll come on to doubles in a minute:

Its worth noting that there are 3 ways of stopping an enemy unit assaulting your Tau- blocking (which can be aggressive as in this tutorial, or passive- which is pretty similar to bubblewrapping), bubblewrapping and simply not being in charge range- the last one gets kind of ignored as its so basic but is vital in actual games. You only need one effective estoppel at a time- so you don't need to sit in your bubblewrap all game.

Eh, it depends. If you're facing marines (decent example), you've got bubblewrap for when they do get to your lines, BUT, if your opponent wants to express-deliver some termies to your lines, blocking becomes a decent choice. I'm going to outline some stuff about blocking for everyone else here.

As an example, in 5 turns of movement in a vehicle, how quickly can an enemy get to your lines to charge? My guesstimates on this suggest a 3rd to 4th turn charge. So, if you can wipe your enemy on T 3, great. But if you can't, it might be a good idea to invest in some bubblewrap that'll shield your shooting units till T 5 or 6. Blocking, of course, does something, but it'll buy you a turn at most (still something useful, though, for stopping heavy infantry). So, do you feel you can table an opponent by T 3-4 or 5-6? If you could sacrifice 25% percent of your force to gain 50-66% more shooting time, would you feel this is a worthwhile exchange? .75 * 1.6 = 1.25. So you still get 25% more firepower out of this exchange at best, 12.5% at worst (.75 * 1.5 = 1.125). It's a good exchange in my mind. And Kroot are cheap, this is probably an example of two kroot + a piranha. One more turn of shooting for all living units dependent on the kroot is a reasonable upgrade for me. Maybe you had better options?

Also, you really don't want to sit in Bubblewrap all game. But Broadsides & Pathfinders need protection. I like & suggest this method of protection for them. Crisis suits are more then fine with dividing themselves over your side of the board. But you understand this, Samiens.

I love it when an enemy deep strikes, outflanks or whatever because it makes it even easier to take the enemy apart piece by piece- so long as you are set bup properly its just not a problem for a competent list.

People can outflank right next to your broadsides or pathfinders if you don't bubblewrap. If you can deal with that, good for you. Properly placed bubblewrap wins games for me.

You also have to be far more aggressive than the internet suggests if we want to actually take/contest objectives.

I use the blow-them-apart method of play, and I'm still getting the hang of objectives (taking middle field and so on, been getting nothing but annihilation & capture the draw for the last couple of weeks). But I was talking about a scenario where IG basically charges in and caps for you (the perfect solution)! I thought this was obvious, I'll amend my later posts (and probably offend more people for assuming they don't know) later.

We totally disagree on anti-tank. You need str 6 and 7 to supress light tanks- which often tears them open anyway.

Destroying AV 10-12 (usually 11 or 12 for most troop carriers) is the key to stop enemy scoring units from getting into mid-field. Now while it's all well and good to use Nid methods (shake/stun units till you can get into position), Tau can't charge, and doesn't have great access to Melta. Sure, there's Piranhas, but you're not going to get tons. And where am I going to get S 6-7 weaponry? Suits. The suits you're suggesting Mozza take less of. Tau doesn't have S 6 on vehicles (Unless you're taking Ionheads), so no Eldar-equivalent torrenting.

strength 8/9 is necessary for AV 13 (but aside from monoliths, land raiders and russes its easy to find an angle on a lesser armour facing).

So, we don't need S 8/9 as Tau? Great, we don't HAVE it. So nothing's lost.

Strength 10/lance/melta is vital for av 14 only (although its obviously great for smashing lesser armour as well). Heck, once its immobilised, str 4 in the form of charging kroot will eventually kill most tanks- and then why waste high strength shots?

Moving in Kroot in is something I'd only do to a gunline. They're there to delay, not kill things. If they do, bonus, otherwise, eh. As for S 10 being only for AV 14, have you heard of auto-glancing? It makes opponents annoyed. So focusing Broadside fire at Rhinos and their equivalents is nice (Wave serpents, btw, are basically like AV 14, due to their Energy Fields, so your argument falls apart somewhat here, and yeah, S 7 can glance them on 5s, but I don't want to stake my life on 5s & 6s). And melta is rare, as you've shown with your list.

Tau has Suits w/ S 6 & 7, and Broadsides w/ S 10. If Mozza & their partner can basically remove all transports and most heavy vehicles on the first turn, their opponent is dead. Period.

The fact is you don't need to kill tanks anyway, merely halt their effectiveness.

But we don't have nid-style torrenting, along with good assault units. So how will we do this? How many vehicles are we talking about here, 2-3? Because I'm assuming 6 minimum.

I stick by the solidarity of wound allocation tricks with team leader and targetting arrays (Its worth noting that just being a team leader isn't enough for wound allocation as the models are identical in game terms- much like space marine terminator assault sergeants) and the way it makes markerlights more effective- but we can agree to disagree.

They cost more, they have different upgrades, therefore they're different. I'll post a link to the exact section of the BRB that says this later.

I've already shown simple math that stats, without three units of suits to upgrade in this manner, it's better just to get another suit, due to more wounds. Now, when dealing with fractions, and a few extra points, it's probably alright, but I oddly find few of these occasions in my list building (might be that I focus on bare-bones units, while you automatically toss on the TL w/ TA or that I just ignore the possibility).

In many ways I think its indicative of a bizarre Tau internet thing where anything even slightly different is derided- I use this upgrade because I've tried it, succeeded with it and suggest other people try it.

But you don't offer battle reports and specific examples. Any scientist would have to submit their notes to prove their methods, so why is it so hard to do this? Grab vassal and get 1-2 battle reports, then post them here (with links to pictures of the board at the beginning of each half-turn), and prove me wrong. I really would like to be. But no one provides specifics, so we just keep going on and on, wasting time with our hypothesizes, which are based on our experiences. I've got a 1500 game on Sunday that I'll post a report on, here. I'm certain I'll make plenty of horrific mistakes, and there might be places where unusual wargear could have made the difference.

Right on to doubles:
Doubles isn't a low points game- its a 1500 point list chosen from 2 codexes. 1500 points is not a small game. You don't build 2 small lists you build 1 combined list (and in most doubles you only need 1 HQ and 1 troops in each half- so the opportunity cost is that of 1 HQ).

Mozza didn't say anything, so I assume 1 HQ & 2 Troops per list. This can eat up tons, depending on armies (Tactical Marines, DE Warriors w/ Transport, Firewarriors + a Fish). If it's like that, it opens up some options. He didn't actually list two Troops choices, so it's possible that they could be going this route. But he needs to tell us, or we need to find a link, or we're just drawing at straws (although I will agree that what you're saying makes sense, so I'm not disagreeing).

However, there are some differences- its harder to take more of the heavy stuff thanks to the composition rules- chances are if you face 2 land raiders there is very little else in teh list you are facing- and to me 5 fire dragons, a single railgun and a (much maligned) fusion blaster will likely at least neuter 2 av 14 vehicles (and more likely obliterate them).

Because IG doesn't have access to cheap melta. xD
If you're facing to Land Raiders, your opponent's going to spend ~400-500 points on them, limiting choices in other areas (token troops + cheap leader). This means that if the raiders die, their army dies. Tau brings anti-infantry w/ Suits, Broadsides for light vehicles & higher (although transports are more important here), and some token stuff to take a point of their side of the board. Air Cav charges in and takes the middle of the board, providing tons of pressure on the enemy. Should table weak lists in 2 turns. But with bubblewrap, it has a guarantees that anything that gets around wont automatically wipe out the units back in the base (outflanks, deep strikes, and so on).

In my experience, that extra mobile cover in the form of the hammerhead, and the dual purpose would be a better buy than 2 broadsides- but I would test it before settling.

I have TERRIBAD luck with hammerheads. Horrible shooting (misses, or rolls a 1 or 2 to pen after hitting). But maybe you buy Ionheads, or roll well. I just find they're more trouble then they're worth.

The 60 point scoring unit upgrade referred to Dire Avengers in a wave serpent and the almost indestructable falcon (apologies for the confusion). That said, I would want my fire warriors in a devilfish if possible.

So, you're saying for the cost of a wave serpent, you can throw 60 more points in to make it score? I calc it out as 60 points that costs 85 points (For eldar, it'd be something like 100-120 points) to make it last any decent amount of time when anything stronger then a light breeze is directed at it. But where are the points? Sure, I can toss in Pathfinders, but then I have to sacrifice suits! And we're talking about this when Mozza has an IG partner, who can buy troops of massive numbers on the cheap. So why Tau scoring, exactly?

He asked for either Tau or Dark Angels. DA is outdated, so I went with Tau. IG gets cheap troops & firepower, Tau gets cheap firepower, funzies ensue.

Finally, on the bubblewrap issue- parking a falcon in front of your squishy infantry works just as well as a kroot unit (you can also bubble wrap with fire warriors, battlesuits and, if you're clever, 2 gun drones)- its not all about large kroot units. what's more- you won't always need to bubblewrap at all!

Most assaulty units have power weapons. Vehicles are too expensive to use as walls for that. Suits are too expensive as well, but I understand the concept, if the game depends on it, yes. But Kroot are cheap. Use Kroot!

Fundamentally, we disgaree on many issues- anti-tank, the felxibility of battlesuit set ups and how to build doubles armies. What I do hope is that this discussion is helping the original query by showing different approaches.

I guess we do disagree (and agree on that!) on anti-tank, suit choices, and how to build doubles armies. I also see different reasoning. But your reasoning is based on Tau + Eldar, while mine is based on Tau + IG. I'll give you three guesses as to what Mozza first suggested.

Yes, doubles is complex, and what you use worked then. But this is now, for someone partnering with cheap troops choices (as well as cheap transports for them), easy access to melta, and covers different spots then you had to then. Go grab an IG codex (friend's or just read it on Scribd).

[SageoftheTimes]

Oh geez, you guys responded while I was typing out another Wall. Great.

Most Tau players who do any kind of online stuff know the names to a degree, and I would be surprised if they were not covered earlier in the thread as they are pretty standardized. Admittingly I only know a few of the massive configuration names.
Deathrain is TL Missile Pods, and support systems. I typically use flamers.
Helios fusion blaster and plasma gun. I put in a Multitracker as well.
BladeStorm Burst Cannon and plasma gun. I throw the CIB on the unit leader too instead of the BC and thus the name changes.
Fireknife as you know is the Plasmagun/ missile pod version.
Heatwave TL flamers(alternate backup squad for me)
The Deathrain, Helios, and the Fireknives are by far the most common suits you see on the table.

I can see the idea of Bladestorm. It's a cheaper version of Fireknife, that tries to torrent more. Sacrificing 2 high strength shots for 3 low strength shots, for 6 less points, doesn't sound like a great deal for me. Against marines, yeah, you've got more shots when in range, but you've built your suits to go purely against infantry. They can't do anything to vehicles (and the extra wound is variable, because S 7 will regularly wound on 2s, but S 5 might be anywhere between 3s & 5s for anything besides IG or DE). Deathrain torrents vehicles, and has flamers that will be used 1-3 times against charging models. Beyond Orks, DE, and Eldar, eh, I can't see much use. And without multi-trackers, it's an either-or choice, so no extra shots. Helios is basically MC/Termie hunters. The FB will get off 1-2 shots, which might get an invul save, or might wound. But the extra flexibility of Fireknife allows wounding at longer ranges. Melta's also got a decent platform w/ Piranhas, which double as blockers. Suits don't do well at close range, so Fireknife makes more sense. But you can use whatever you want. Just know you're paying ~60 points for something as tough as a marine, with two wounds instead of one.

Suits are a tricky one. Firstly, let me say I totally endorse the fire knife set up- its good against most things, has a long effective range and is vital against against things that you might struggle to kill with volume of fire like terminators and things with feel no pain.

However, there is no reason why some of the other suit options might not work for an individual's player style, so i'll share my thoughts on the above- though I tend notr to use anything other than fire knife and deathrain. It is worth saying, however, that by mixing suit types you give your opponent the opportunity to assassinate the unit that most worries him- redundancy maintains your threat level better.

Decent stuff up here.

Deathrain: I too run these with flamers- 3 flamers can really make a mess of things like orks and guard in cover near the end of the game- so much more useful than blacksun filters for 1 point extra per model- especially when suits already have acute senses. Otherwise this is decent anti-armour/suppression and reasonable torrent of fire on a cheap frame. This was almost the suit of choice at the beginning of 5th when infantry were a bit sparse but light tanks had just started popping up everywhere.

I find Fireknives offer the flexibility of both anti-light-vehicle, and anti-heavy-infantry. I might try throwing in flamers in somewhere, but not without some consideration (and probably only on an HQ & Team leader). It's not something that Tau does well, due to the lack of Heavy Flamers.

Helios: This is great up close and personal (my multi-kit commander fire like this a large amount of the time) and allows you to smash heavy units when they get close. The issues with this suit is that it really doesn't do a lot from range and without targeting array team leaders desperately needs markerlights to make it work- 1 1/2 melta hits isn't up to much unfortunately. Still, this is terminator bane so shouldn't be entirely ruled out.

On one or two models? Sure. On an entire unit? Too much tailoring.

Bladestorm: The big issue with this is that its surely competing with the fireknife- and there aren't too many situations where 3 str 5 shots trump 2 str 7 shots. To look at the maths against T4 (bladestorms preferred target)- a unit of 3 bladestorm suits will get 3 plasma hits and 4.5 str 5 hits

You should ignore Plasma Rifles here, it's an analysis of the Burst Cannon vs. the Missile Pod. Still, some decent math here.

- leading to around 2.5 ap 2 wounds and 3 ap 5 wounds. Deathrains will get 3 str 7 hits and obviously the same plasma hits- giving 2.5 AP 4 wounds and 2.5 plasma wounds- so not a lot in it. When you add in the range and tank killing power of the missile pod- and the fact burst cannons drop off quickly as toughness increases its a hard sell. The CIB is interesting but basically makes the unit anti-infantry (as getting too many non AP 2 hits actually means you are likely to kill less models where wound allocation plays a part). If you really want additional anti-infantry, I'd recommend aggressive kroot or fire warriors (maybe even stealth suits- although that's another debate)

As to aggressive Kroot, unless they Outflank where you want them too, they're a bit eh. Still, they're cheap. It does take more points from your units, though, so more experienced players will just obliterate them, taking the losses they cause, and then just roll on. Fire Warriors are expensive for what they give. Do the math on Kroot shooting vs. FW shooting. Kroot do more, if you spend the same. They can also fight in assault. Stealth Suits cost too much. Now, if they got a price drop, and could grab Plasma....

Fireknife is great, engages a variety of units effectively and the tournament standard- enough said?

Heatwave: Often paired with a missile pod, this just seems backwards to me- if 3 flamer templates aren't enough then maybe the rest of your list needs work- or you are in a tonm of trouble. Plus, most Tau players (if not all) play to keep the enemy as far away as possible for as long as possible- meaning you're not getting a lot from the unit. The deathrain flmaer set up gives you a nice weapon of opportunity- this seems to me to just give you a subpar unit except in situations you will strive to avoid.

There is one more I see (which likely has an indecipherable name which I forget- melty melty perhaps?) which is twin linked fusion blasters (with a variety of extra equipment from targeting arrays, drones, shields to opportunity weapons like flamers and missile pods) . This is great( if unnecessary if you are packing the standard 4+ railguns) at deep striking and melting a tank- and then it flounders and dies- maybe its worth it in a very non-standard list- but not for me.

Sunforge, I think. Basically, deep-strike suicide melta. Too expensive, when you consider what Broadsides or Fireknives can do for the cost. This is why I suggest a new Tau Thread. Get new info on the front page, link some of the better arguments here, and give new people a better choice then wading through 102 pages.

Its worth noting, however, that battlesuits are great and its about what works for you, and what your army (which might be the internet cut and paste or might not be) needs- you'll do best by picking the configuation that you get the most out of- not just by taking the internet's choice- although the fireknife is a fantastic weapon all the same.

Good words to consider. Don't just take something because someone says it's awesome, look for good reasoning. Challenge bad reasoning.

Isn't Firestorm a standard as well? In these days of near universal cover saves (and the distance you want to be) I think the burst cannon/missile pod variant is a competitor for the Fireknife. Missile pods are too good to lose, but at 12" plus 3 S5 is comparable to 1 S6 with no save.

What cover saves are we talking about here? If your opponent is in cover, consider what their armor save is. If we're talking about 13-24" shooting, BCs might out-perform in anti-cover, but at that point, some flamers might be better (something Tau doesn't do well, due to getting Suits into CC range being a serious problem), for a certain value of better. The tried and tested method is usually just pointing Pathfinders at the offending unit, removing the save, and blowing them apart.

I'd definitely take Fireknives for a first choice, as they are such good all-rounders, however my second choice would always be Firestorms since they are cheaper and work as slightly better all-rounders (they just lack the extra MEq killing power within 12" should things get desperate).

They lack MEq & MC killing power. The points drop is not worth it.

[samiens]

Ok, this is getting more fractious than I would like- and I apologise in my part for that.

A few responses then:

As to the question of why take team leaders with targeting arrays in fire knife squads- its simple for me- for 15 points more per squad you get the opportunity to take wound allocation shenanigans which can significantly increase the survivability of your suits and you get one suit per unit hitting on 3s. There is no doubt that in a comparison of 3 units of 3, this is more effective (especially as we agree that 3 units of 3 naked fireknives compared to 3,3,2 fireknives with team leaders is at least statistically similar [I can post the maths if you like]) but costs 45 points more.

Therefore, the issue is 2 fold- is the BS 4 worth the points and what do you lose to field it. Well, the first one is simple- with 9 BS 3 suits in rapid fire range you get:

18 plasma shots of which 9 hit
18 missile pod shots of which 9 hit

For the team leader set up:
12 plasma of which 6 hit+6 plasma of which 4 hit- so 10 hits
12 missile pod shots of which 6 hit + 6 missile pod shots of which 4 hit- so 10 hit.

Outside rapid fire range:

9 BS 3 suits:
9 plasma shots of which 4.5 hit
18 missile pod shots of which 9 hit

Team leader set up:

6 plasma shots of which 3 hit + 3 plasma of which 2 hit- so 5 hits
18 missile pod shots of which 10 hit as above

So is this worth 45 points for an extra hit- in a vacuum probably not. So why do I take it? Well there's a few points- I roll quite badly, so I like the safety net. It lets me switch more markerlights to reducing cover (1 markerlight making them hit on 3s and 1 suit on 2s is good enough for me). It makes them more survivable to small arms fire and it becomes statistically better as suits start dying. But it is a taste thing.

The other side is what do you lose? Well, I want the drones on devilfish ( I tend to 'bubblewrap' with the smallest available unit that will work) so I don't pay for the expensive warfish upgrades. I don't buy as large kroot squads as some (in 1500 where points are sparse I take 10 man units- maybe 13 in more points). So it really is a taste thing.

An important side note on blocking and bubblewrapping- you can use anything for this (although vehicles are required to block vehicles)- in my last tournament I didn't have enough kroot painted so I took 3 6-man units of firewarriors and let them block for me (I rarely bubblewrap in the strictest sense- just string units in front of my key players as necessary- though the terms are pretty interchangable).

On to outflanking. There are 2 types of outflankers- assaulters and shooters. Assaulters are really simple- don't deploy too close to the table edges! Shooters are harder- if you can drive them into inneffective targets great- but otherwise you may just have to take a hit (chances are you'll lose no more than one unit to each outflanking shooting unit- could be worse.) The real thing to love about outflankers is that its splits the enemy force- reserve tactics hate fighting Tau.

In my last ToS game I played a necron player in kill points who tried to basically deep strike the monolith then use it and funky teleported squads to take me down. What happened? The monolith came late, after I had knocked off about 5 kill points for the loss of one- game, set and match- risky tactics to employ.

Finally, for this part- Tau taking objectives. This is the bit that isn't really covered in Kirby's excellent tutorials (maybe he rolls well enough to table his opponents?). For the rest of us, we need to deal with the Tau conundrum- plenty of kill power but absolutely cannot get to close to anything bar gretchin (and then only a few of them). Most of the vassal type reports I have seen (I don't use vassal so can't post I'm afraid) have the Tau sit back in a big line and kill or be killed.

The key is to kill the enemy to take the board area you want to take. The best way to do this is to:

Deploy together in a big block- use tough/cheap units in the vanguard and don't fear losing a few units
Get into rapid fire range and aggressively remove the enemy (this is where agressive Kroot and charging battlesuits come in- both are bizarrely good at assaulting stricken tanks to destruction if required)

You absolutely have to plan ahead and take reasonable risks to get up the table-the longer you wait the more you are trying to dash for last minute tank shocks. Tau are great at killing individual units (whether they carry the weight of fire to destroy things other than transport heavy armies is another question) so as long as you don't set up the enemy for a mass attack you'll be fine.

On to doubles with IG quickly:

Air Cavalry IG will typically be melta vets (so 3 BS 4 meltaguns per squad- there's your cheap melta) in a vendetta (with 3 lascannons- 2 of which are twin linked)- so in fact Tau need to bring the anti-infantry, not the railguns to help out- as the vets excel at knocking out armour)

Sage:

I'm possibly noting a trend to playing with set roles for everything- what do you do with your kroot when you don't need a bubblewrap? To me, Tau are too expensive to have the luxury of not using every unit every turn where possible. Fire warriors camping on an objective can still put out 6 str 5 shots at 30"- every little helps! Similarly with Kroot, their rapid fire is decent, their charge can strip vehicles if necessary, they are a scoring unit who hide very effectively in woods AND they bubblewrap (what's not to love!)

You make a good point about spending points to keep your army shooting but remember this- each turn if you engage the minimum number of points doing this, you have even more points worth of shooting or gaining a positional advantage! (in ToS I spent 270 points on defensive units [kroot, a piranha, 2 small unwanted fire warrior squads]- but typically used one unit maximum per turn for defence- scalps by my defensive units included Astorath killed by rapid firing fire warriors and eventually, an outflanking vendetta to kroot [although that was an error as my missile pods immobilised it and it fell out of LOS of my guns so I had little other option!])

And actually finally on anti-tank- don't forget that 1 in 3 times glancing hits will either immobilise or take a weapon from a tank- and a few of those will destroy the vehicle unless its a darn monolith (but that's what railguns are for!)