5.0 Tactica - Tau Empire

[SageoftheTimes]

Reading this thread, I think I have a different take on the Tau army. My army is designed to be almost entirely reserved and still be effective. My Broadsides walk on(yes that means they arent firing) My FW and kroot zoom on in DF or outflank in the case of kroot, and my 9 crisis elites and 3 hazards all DS. The only things I typically will start on the board with are pathfinders and their DF(emphasis on the importance of the devilfish, the PFs are a delivery system so I can get it which comes into play in a second) I enjoy the balls to the wall game style and it tends to come as a shock to people expecting the typical JSJ from cover Fireknives(which I do not use a single one of.) I also tend to start my commander and his Deathrain team on the board.

From a competitive standpoint, most of this seems a bit silly. Not getting Advanced Stabilization on broadsides and thus losing a turn of fire? Hope what you have on them regularly makes up for that, because this is a dangerous strategy. Also, deploying Pathfinders yet not Broadsides on the board? Oxymoronic, in that you've committed your pathfinders to a space, yet are wasting firing time on Broadsides.

Outflanking kroot for either more dynamic deployment or assaults is. Now, DSing suits is interesting. Regular suits will most likely get eaten due to lack of toughness. The most I can see here is DS melta/flamers. Dangerous. Better regulated to your Hazards, but even then, with rerolls on the scatter, it's still a dangerous prospect. Hazards, while decent for their melta option, are expensive for the role, as well.

Lack of Fireknives is a bit odd, given that they give decent MC/heavy infantry fire, and can sub for light vehicle fire. Guessing you rely on deep strike melta or something for the purposes of removing vehicles?

Finally, Deathrains on commander's bodyguard? BS 4 TL is gilding the lily a bit much, when you can just grab an additional gun. I say these things for a simple reason: While a way of playing, they're neither the most effective, or something that regular players should look into till they have a grasp of the army. Many players will get lured into gunlines, when Hybrid is far more effective (if expensive).

Bait and switch Tactics- This is what I call my method of fighting. I doubt its new but it isnt something I see used or talked about very often. The basic premise is starting the game with some juicy bait units on the board to force the opponent to come across(its my primary tactic with my Air Cav IG armies too).

A dangerous tactic, considering your opponent could ask to read your list before the game, or just reference your model's weapons to what they'll do. Finally, leaving almost everything in reserve is a big hint as to what you're going to do. It can work for the unprepared, but you're taking 1-3 turns to get your big units on the board. An experienced opponent wont overstretch, they'll wait for you to come in sporadically, then pick off what units do arrive, using cheap sacrificial units to blunt anything you'll throw at them.

I use my pathfinders, my command squad and a FW squad in the PF DF. I put the PFs somewhere vital but in really good cover preferebly where LOS is limited to a certain fire path. Opponents generally know how effective PFs can be against them so they will concentrate way more resources to take them out than they really should. Works for me, thats why I bring them and not expect them to do anything except get shot at. The important part for me is their Devilfish and its reroll DS scatter ability for my suits. It I take care to try and keep out of harms way and additionally I do not make it threatening, I give it a Disruption Pod, thats it because if it is engaging then it better be late game or something is wrong. Ill throw a FW or auxilary team in there for late game objectives. My command team with their 36" TL launchers will bounce around and go for transports or important targets.

Pathfinders will get a 4++ save, MAYBE a 3++ save for being in special cover. T 3? 4+ Armor save? They wont survive long being the only unit on the board. Your devilfish idea is standard practice, but it's decent to note good tactics. That said, what's not a good tactic is having one infantry unit and one vehicle on the board. The Fish is vulnerable to torrent fire that has no where else to go. If it goes, your whole deep strike idea is out the window.

What all this does is draw the enemy across the board. These targets are too important to ignore and will plague the opponent all game if he doesnt get rid of them. I fully expect the PFs to die. By bringing everything including the broadsides and HH on from reserves almost garruantees I am getting side shots on any vehicle when they do come on. It also enables me to DS behind enemy forces and split them up, if any PFs are alive to support my guys, so much the better.

Everyone makes a space for luck, this doesn't mean we rely on it exclusively. Your tactic is based on someone overextending due to lack of forces. Smart opponents will expand lightly, near cover and facing beneficial directions. Your Pathfinders are the least of your worries. If your fish goes down, you're dead, due to relying on regular DS rolls.

Every now and then it really works out to my favor and I come down with extreme force and have a devastating shooting phase like my last game. All but one crisis team came in on turn 3 and pretty much ended the game destroying all or most of every single opponent squad on the board(pathfinders didnt make it though, they are a volunteer squad in my army fluff anyway).

Might want to give examples and battle reports here. SabrX just linked a description of a battle vs. Mechdar, complete with basic and full running slideshow of the battle. Allows everyone to see what's going on in the battle.

I'm sure you do well in some battles, but it sounds like the people you're fighting are inexperienced, thus allowing you to rip them apart. Are you posting this here as a possible new method of play, or are you just showcasing your method of play? Is this meant to be a competitive style?

[Col. Dash]

Like I said, I run my army different than most I see. It works for me because it isnt typically expected, and I have other armies I play and do not play the same person with the same army often enough to remember what I do.

--I do bring ASS on my Broadsides. Thats why they come in reserves. My pathfinders are just there as a target. If my opponent doesnt move forward to take them out then they get to do their thing.

--Deathrains--I like hitting 5 or 6 times with missile pods, when I hit something, I want it gone, they never let me down. In the last 2 games alone this squad not only survived the entire game on the board but killed 2 crisis suits, a devilfish, several seer council on jetbikes, 2 of 3 wounds on an Avatar and a ton of guardians with their flamers.

--Yes it is a dangerous tactic- Fortune favors the bold....well usually anyway.

I have two narrative battle reports over on Tautactica under the 755th Sturm Grenadiers in the lower concourse.

My list offhand at 2250
Shas'O Ralai
Shas'el- Deathrain team with TL MPs and flamers. plus two shield drones

FW x7 DF with DP
FW x7
Krootx10 with 4 hounds

Crisis Bladestorm team- TL with CIB/plasma. Plasma/BCx2
Crisis Helios 3x Fusion/plasma
Crisis Heatwave 3x TL Flamers and MPs no MT

Pathfinders x6 DF with DP
Hazard suits with PIGs x3 and two Shield drones (accounted for a wraithlord and guardian squad in my last real game)

Broadsides x2 ASS and 2 shield drones
Hammerhead DP/MT

2 minimum squads of auxilaries with a pulse rifle on each leader.

Holes yes... but it works for me. You have to play extremely aggressively and take risks. I regularly have dropped within 6" of the board edge on purpose without the PFDF reroll.

[SageoftheTimes]

Like I said, I run my army different than most I see. It works for me because it isnt typically expected, and I have other armies I play and do not play the same person with the same army often enough to remember what I do.

I'm trying to say this: It's fine if you post here, just don't have people assume your build is competitive. You didn't come out and say this, so I'm unsure what you mean.

If you leave one unit out, and have a bunch of other units in reserve, what is the other person supposed to think? Tau Suits can deep strike. You're relying on others not knowing how you play to win. It's a gimmick. That said, I asked you before, is this for competitive purposes, or just to showcase how you play? Lots of people play unusual builds (non-competitive, as an example) and do alright. Tau doesn't have anything much beyond castling. It's got a couple different ways to play this, but, you so far haven't stated anything that interacts differently with my assumptions of Tau, observations of weapon performance, and deep-striking (as Tau).

I do bring ASS on my Broadsides. Thats why they come in reserves. My pathfinders are just there as a target. If my opponent doesnt move forward to take them out then they get to do their thing.

Alright, I think I understand, they have to come in off reserves, so you lack a ton of shooting w/ them. You're relying on reserving to generate some sort of confusion. This will work with new players and inexperienced players only.

--Deathrains--I like hitting 5 or 6 times with missile pods, when I hit something, I want it gone, they never let me down. In the last 2 games alone this squad not only survived the entire game on the board but killed 2 crisis suits, a devilfish, several seer council on jetbikes, 2 of 3 wounds on an Avatar and a ton of guardians with their flamers.

As far as I can see, you have two 'battle reports' here. I put the term in quotes due to: No army lists, no concise description of the battle, and you changed details. Hell, one's a training game. Still, you at least posted them, so you want to give something. That said, very few armies will not attempt to get closer to you. Going for TL-Pods means you're relegating it to a light vehicle killer. As to killing seer council, usually the council will toss itself a Fortune, thus favoring it's 3+ armor save, something Missiles don't negate. I'm sure they pile some wounds at longer ranges, and make decent transport poppers, but getting them close enough to use flamers as anything other then a last resort means the suits are very easy to kill.

--Yes it is a dangerous tactic- Fortune favors the bold....well usually anyway.

I have two narrative battle reports over on Tautactica under the 755th Sturm Grenadiers in the lower concourse.

Fortune favours those with superior numbers, specifically those who can bring more power to a point quicker, to destroy an opponent's army.

Blood Angels can reroll reserves and scatter half the distance. Tau can just reroll scatter. This doesn't increase reliability of having most of your units come in as a wave, thus splitting your firepower.

My list offhand at 2250
Shas'O Ralai
Shas'el- Deathrain team with TL MPs and flamers. plus two shield drones

FW x7 DF with DP
FW x7
Krootx10 with 4 hounds

Crisis Bladestorm team- TL with CIB/plasma. Plasma/BCx2
Crisis Helios 3x Fusion/plasma
Crisis Heatwave 3x TL Flamers and MPs no MT

Pathfinders x6 DF with DP
Hazard suits with PIGs x3 and two Shield drones (accounted for a wraithlord and guardian squad in my last real game)

Broadsides x2 ASS and 2 shield drones
Hammerhead DP/MT

2 minimum squads of auxilaries with a pulse rifle on each leader.

As a competitive list (if it's not, just say so, I like the idea of it somewhat, but it seems flawed to rely on deep strike, especailly for R'alia), this has several flaws: Choosing more then one FW squad, the auxilaries squads (Kroot do better, for less), and the assumption that DS units will do their job. The requirement of the Fish being on the table, while having the rest of the army goes in reserve means you're opening up that Fish to your opponent's whole arsenal of anti-tank. It most likely will not survive that. Combine that with the fragility of regular suits, you're assuming that you'll get enough units in at once to alpha strike someone down. The biggest thing you're waving at your opponent is T 5 units, and only one unit of them. The majority of your units are DS suicide units, and from what I can see of your battle reports, you fought an eldar hybrid list, and a new player w/ basic Tau units. These aren't true tests of the army.

Holes yes... but it works for me. You have to play extremely aggressively and take risks. I regularly have dropped within 6" of the board edge on purpose without the PFDF reroll.

'It works for me' is an invalid argument. That's like saying physics works for you in one way, while for me in another. Invalid, unless proven otherwise.

I'm not saying what you should play, I'm just wondering why you're posting this, possibly as a competitive list, possibly not. This is a tactica thread, and I try to make sure the most cutting edge stuff is out there.

[Col. Dash]

There is more than your way to play an army. We just had this discussion in the eldar thread. Just because you think and have experienced things working a certain way doesnt mean thats the only way. The purpose of the tactics is to post tactics and spread ideas not post why idea A from player A is superior just because they saw it or played it in a tourney once. I have no idea who you are but you are not the end all in Tau knowledge. There are more than just Fireknives and one squad of fire warriors. My FW in other games have done very well in the past and I still use fish of fury to great effect or threaten to anyway which makes opponents do what I want them to. I only bring one squad in small games. My posts on that board are only since I started the blog, never bothered writing one before that.

Dont think linearly and start thinking outside the box at other methods to play and innovate. I havent read your post on "how to play tau properly" because such doesnt exist(I will read it tomorrow if I get time however just to see if I can pick something useful up though so dont worry). There are styles of play and list building that suit each style of player regardless of other opinions on the subject. We had a no-aspect foot'dar list win a tourney recently, why? He did something unexpected for the tourney and even with my aircav pie plate of doom army(I chuckled when I saw him set up thinking an easy win) i could barely make a dent in it. Orks, BA, and SW got chewed apart(I at least had some units left at the end).

Do I think my list is the most competitive? Not really, I'd wager 50/50 at a tourney from past experiences(far more than in my blog, I preordered Tau before they came out so i have a couple years playing them). Fun, oh hell yeah. This is the most fun list I have ever played(thus motivating me to do the blog in the first place) and seeing as that is the point of the game, I call it totally successful.

In final before I crash, think outside what you normally do with an open mind. There are weak points in every list and there are strong points. Just like in life or in martial arts, one stance isnt the end all be all, someone may know a trick or by hearing something, get inspired to try something else that may be the next big thing(not saying my list is at all but there is more to successful tau than castling.)

[Carlosophy]

In final before I crash, think outside what you normally do with an open mind. There are weak points in every list and there are strong points. Just like in life or in martial arts, one stance isnt the end all be all, someone may know a trick or by hearing something, get inspired to try something else that may be the next big thing(not saying my list is at all but there is more to successful tau than castling.)

The man speaketh the truth. In my last game against a rather elite chaos army we played in a ruined cityscape meaning long-range fire was impossible. My Fire Warriors (3 squads, maxed) accounted for Abaddon and his 10 Khorne Terminators, a full squad of berzerkers and lucius and his noise marines through sheer volume of fire and pathfinder support.

Shas'o Ral'ai killed about 3 models. He's rubbish.

The reason Fire Warriors are treated with such disdain is you all play on tables with little scenery. If you can filter your opponents advance in waves through flanking kroot and piranha blockers fire warriors are actually really good.

[Archibald_TK]

We just had this discussion in the eldar thread.

Woah! Stop right here! The drama that spammed the Eldar thread must stay on the Eldar thread!

Back to what you were saying sure there are other ways to play an army, even to reject staple. Personally I have totally abandoned the use of PF at 1500 pts and no longer use a Devilfish for my FW either, going against what people assume to be common wisdom. I also use one drone with each of my Crisis team because I consider the "no drone ever" lists that people like Stelek popularized two years ago to be relics from the past, outdated concept from a time when far less armies were able to land a single ID shots on a target. Razorback spam, BA, DE all helped change my point of view on that.

But that doesn't mean that everything is a viable list. It's understandable that on a Tactica thread people points out why a list won't work unless you play against people who will make it work. Saying that it works for you has no real meaning as I could field a full FW list (without any Fast, HS or Elite choices), an Ethereal and a commander with TL Pulse Cannon and say it works for me, that wouldn't change the fact that my list won't work against the majority of opponents.

Full reserve Tau is a poor concept. You lose your firepower for multiple turns, you have no control over reserve outside of playing Ninja Tau (which doesn't work either unless you fight someone who never played against it before), your scatter rerolls depend on your Devilfish that your opponent will be more than happy to destroy turn 1 or 2 (and he will due to the lack of other targets for his AT, I also assure you from experience that if you have DS Suits in reserve that vehicle will be a priority target for many players), if your Devilfish is totally hidden then it probably means you also has no line of sight to the Crisis suits that will DS thus preventing you from using the scatter reroll, I already see full team of Pathfinders being annihilated from the board turn 1 at 1500, at 2250 I have no idea how they can survive unless you have them totally out of sight of everything, in which case your opponent won't be bothered by them as the Markerlights are heavy weapons. Basically the list is very weak against other shooty armies.

Regarding Baiting, you won't see that many threads about it because it requires your opponent to not know your army and not really be sure what he wants to down first. If he has his target priorities straight against you he won't fall for it.

There are styles of play and list building that suit each style of player regardless of other opinions on the subject. We had a no-aspect foot'dar list win a tourney recently, why? He did something unexpected for the tourney and even with my aircav pie plate of doom army(I chuckled when I saw him set up thinking an easy win) i could barely make a dent in it. Orks, BA, and SW got chewed apart(I at least had some units left at the end).

Playing the metagame in a tournament is okay if you know the kind of weapons opponents tend to field and your army is designed to exploit that (that's typically the concept of Horde armies not being that good, but kicking your ass when you are overloaded with AT).
But your army doesn't exploit anything like that, it's still a regular Tau army with the same weakness to the same weapons as any other Tau army (well outside of weird things like the XV9). Your army rely on surprising your opponent in order to work, the benefits of thinking outside the box as you said. My question being: what can you do with it when you face someone who is not surprised.

EDIT-

The reason Fire Warriors are treated with such disdain is you all play on tables with little scenery. If you can filter your opponents advance in waves through flanking kroot and piranha blockers fire warriors are actually really good.

The reason people tend to not play them, you can find debate about it littered everywhere in every page of that thread. I also won't use them despite playing with scenery heavy tables. I'm ready to bet a dried sardine we actually use more scenery that yourself

Personally I use Kroots instead of FW, they bring the volume of fire I'm looking for but offers far more options on how to use them.

[Wisdom like silence]

The reason Fire Warriors are treated with such disdain is you all play on tables with little scenery. If you can filter your opponents advance in waves through flanking kroot and piranha blockers fire warriors are actually really good.

Really? The one reason Fire Warriors can possibly be considered better than Kroot at shooting, point for point, is the fact that they have 6 more inches of range. I completely fail to see how having more terrain makes your Fire Warriors more useful than Kroot.

[Stonerhino]

Really? The one reason Fire Warriors can possibly be considered better than Kroot at shooting, point for point, is the fact that they have 6 more inches of range. I completely fail to see how having more terrain makes your Fire Warriors more useful than Kroot.

It goes a little beyond that. The slight difference in Str between the Kroot and Fire Warrior's weapons changes what they can target. For example if there is nothing else to shoot a unit of fire warriors can target a rhino or light vehicle and hurt it. Where as the kroot are just sitting there. They also have the option of long range side shots against some heavier tanks as well.

The 6" difference in range seems small. But consider that point for point fire warriors are as effective anti-MEQ as fireknives. Which also have a plasma threat range of 30". So you can screan the crisis suits with fiire warriors and have both target the same targets.

Also the kroot only match the fire warriors in shooting because of their low cost. But that cost has effects outside of their offencive fire power. For example Kroot only have a better survivability if they are in natural cover. In any other case fire warriors the fire warriors are more suvivable and at worst equal. The fire warriors have a lot less to fear from small arms fire and are capable of operating outside of cover.

Kroot do have nice things of their own like infiltrate/outflank. But fire warriors can of set that with transports.

It's kind of a wash as to which is better. Mainly because they do different jobs. I will say that kroot are easier to use, they are most often used as a speed bump to slow down advancing enemies.

I don't use kroot but that's because they can't keep up with the rest of my Tau.

The Fish-of-Fury died for most peope with the coming of 5th ed. For me it made it a more viable tactic. But that's because I did not use it the same as most players. It's really hard to explain on the web. Because it's little differences in game that changes how to apply the right amount of force and blocking. To even try creates a situation of "Then I do this. But what about if they do this???". Trying to discribe blocking is hard enough for some people. When you start trying to describe how to do it when your whole army is moving is a nightmare. But it's a situation where it works for me but not likely to work for people who read about it.

[TheMav80]

Firewarriors don't add anything to your army. They may have Strength 5 guns, but it is on a BS3 T3 4+ model with no maneuverability and no access to special weapons.

They do nothing for you. One squad costs you 60 points. If you want to take a full squad that is another 60 points. I would rather take that 60 points and buy a Fireknife (62 points) that is actually a threat to light vehicles than just praying for a random glance that 6 more Firewarriors might give me.

[Stonerhino]

Firewarriors don't add anything to your army. They may have Strength 5 guns, but it is on a BS3 T3 4+ model with no maneuverability and no access to special weapons.

And yet they have the same anit-meq fire power of fire knives.

A 12 man strong unit of fire warriors has the same anti-meq fire of 3 fire knives and for the same points.

Meaning that if you had 2 full squads of fire warriors and 3 full squads of crisis suits (Fire knife). You would have the same anti MEQ fire as 5 full units of fire knives. Now add in Devilfish to gain both a LOS/movement blocking unit. To both increase the movement of the fire warriors and grant mobile cover to the suits. You are no longer limited to hiding in your deployment zone behind kroot.

You missunderstand. Kroot are not fast enough and die to easy out of cover to be viable in anything but a near static hybrid Tau army. My statement was never fire warrior vs crisis suit. It's fire warriors vs Kroot. To which kroot fill a very limited role in the army. And that is the speed bump/ bubble wrap. Which being only slightly more expensive fire warriors can do along with providing fire that the kroot simply cannot.

Like I said it's a lot easier to say surround your army with kroot so that any outflankers or deep strikers can not land within melta range of your important tanks or charge an important unit. Then it is to explain how to maintain the same blocking system with different units while moving across the board.

Simply because you can't do it with success does not mean it's wrong. It's just more complicated and something that you cannot teach without being able to show the person in person.

[TheMav80]

I think you just proved my point for me. If 12 Firewarriors are just as effective at anti infantry as 3 Fireknives, but the Fireknives ALSO threaten vehicles, monsters, and heavy infantry...why would you want Firewarriors?

If you want to compare them to Kroot, thats cool too. 12 Firewarriors is equal to 17 Kroot. They both put the same number of wounds onto MEQ units. The Firewarriors get an extra 6" of range and can maybe put one glance on a Rhino. Kroot can infiltrate, Field Craft, and get Kroot Hounds to help with their job of screening.

Adding overpriced Warfish onto the Firewarriors just makes them even less point efficient.

[SageoftheTimes]

I think you just proved my point for me. If 12 Firewarriors are just as effective at anti infantry as 3 Fireknives, but the Fireknives ALSO threaten vehicles, monsters, and heavy infantry...why would you want Firewarriors?

If you want to compare them to Kroot, thats cool too. 12 Firewarriors is equal to 17 Kroot. They both put the same number of wounds onto MEQ units.

Actually, Kirby proved earlier that Kroot outshoot FWs on MEQs.

The Firewarriors get an extra 6" of range and can maybe put one glance on a Rhino. Kroot can infiltrate, Field Craft, and get Kroot Hounds to help with their job of screening.

Adding overpriced Warfish onto the Firewarriors just makes them even less point efficient.

Don't forget Pathfinders because they wont hit much.

[Dreadgrass]

Actually, 12 FW cost the same as 2 FireKnives and out perform them against MeQ slightly at >12" and quite significantly at <12" or when shooting at MeQ in cover.

Fire warriors may be unlikely to threaten vehicles, but they are a scoring unit, and probably more survivable than the suits due to the weight of numbers and lack of vulnerability to ID. The flip side to that of course is the suits have much more manouverability and with Jump-shoot-Jump can fire at full efficiency on the move and with essentially 18" range.

Now before this goes out of hand. NO ONE has said "swap your FireKnives for Fire Warriors!!!" It is just another aspect to consider. Personally, I hate the fact that Fire Warriors are relegated to being a 60pt upgrade to make a Devilfish scoring, and would love to actually SHOOT something with them.

[Archibald_TK]

Simply because you can't do it with success does not mean it's wrong. It's just more complicated and something that you cannot teach without being able to show the person in person.

This is simply not true. You will never maintain the same kind of blocking with FW + Devilfish (or I should say you will never block in the same way) simply because FW can't, they don't have the rules or special abilities to do so. I agree that they can bubblewrap as I use them that way and they works like Kroots, but they will never do it as well because anytime I need a special kind of defensive setup first turn, only the Kroots can actually do it.
Kroots can use their infiltrate to deploy in front of your line and increase the safe zone inside which units cannot drop/DS even if you don't have first turn, they can also sacrifice themselves to block an opponent scout move with fast units. Also having less models is a major issue here. The only army that I remeber for now that mess up Kroots badly during deployment and negates their advantage over FW is SW because of their Rune Priest's Chooser of the Slain.

Also I understand that Kroots are not used in Full Mech Tau (I'm assuming, possibly wrongly, that it's what you're playing), but in no way is the Kroot role as limited as you imply.

A typical example is that I use Kroots in CC against my opponents vehicles, and I see them damaging or neutralizing with success. This actually happen quite frequently (blame BA and Eldar for sticking so many vehicles so fast in my face). The FW can't hope to damage a vehicle in CC unless they are all equipped with very costly grenades and their S5 guns are as useless as the Kroots ones when facing AV12.
Outflanking Kroots will be a problem for IG players and force them to not deploy vehicles to close from the side in fear of a charge.

The Kroots do far more than simply bubble wrapping, they are a very versatile unit. And they are not forbidden from entering a Devilfish if required.

KROOTS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!

[TheMav80]

I wish I had never brought up Fireknives now.

[Archibald_TK]

Fire warriors may be unlikely to threaten vehicles, but they are a scoring unit, and probably more survivable than the suits due to the weight of numbers and lack of vulnerability to ID.

I actually do what people consider an heresy and play a 6 men unit of FW with a Shas'Ui on foot (at 1500). Being able to easily hide them coupled by their tenacity with Ld8 have convinced me to totally abandon the Devilfish. (The fact that, contrary to the Pathfinders, they don't eat the entire firepower of the opponent army in the face first turn also help).

As such, I am the proud owner of one of the very few remaining FW unit that actually shoot things during a whole game!

[SageoftheTimes]

Actually, 12 FW cost the same as 2 FireKnives and out perform them against MeQ slightly at >12" and quite significantly at <12" or when shooting at MeQ in cover.

What about the fish to carry them, and the pathfinders to make sure they hit? Fireknives have range, can threaten vehicles, and have AP 2.

Fire warriors may be unlikely to threaten vehicles, but they are a scoring unit, and probably more survivable than the suits due to the weight of numbers and lack of vulnerability to ID.

You mean the supreme survivability of T3? Or the fact that to use them in Fish of 'Fury', you've gotta run them into assault, which they WILL fail in? Don't forget the bump in leadership.

The flip side to that of course is the suits have much more manouverability and with Jump-shoot-Jump can fire at full efficiency on the move and with essentially 18" range.

18" double plas, 30" Single Pas, 42" Missile Range. And they can hide behind your hulls for BLoS. Sounds much more survivable to me.

Now before this goes out of hand. NO ONE has said "swap your FireKnives for Fire Warriors!!!" It is just another aspect to consider. Personally, I hate the fact that Fire Warriors are relegated to being a 60pt upgrade to make a Devilfish scoring, and would love to actually SHOOT something with them.

Wouldn't we all. I'd love for them to have heavy/special weapons, for the combo to have a price drop, and so on. Maybe more firepower, but less survivability then Tacticals. But they don't have heavies or specials. They don't have mobility. They have the ability to charge into range of what they're fighting, and thus either blow up the unit (medium to high light infantry firepower, but squishy), or die trying. The problem with comparing them to units is that you can always get more fireknives, which you admit are better at their role. HHs can provide decent large blasts, kroot provide some fire once an enemy gets close to them, unless they're going to ground when an enemy fires at them, which is it's own reward.

That said, while they suck at shooting compared to other options, they're a 145 point scoring unit. You'll probably get pathfinders for force mods, so it's 'just' 60p. Other armies have to spend more, for less in most of their options. And I doubt anyone here wouldn't like them to have more options.

Archibald_TK:
I actually do what people consider an heresy and play a 6 men unit of FW with a Shas'Ui on foot (at 1500). Being able to easily hide them coupled by their tenacity with Ld8 have convinced me to totally abandon the Devilfish. (The fact that, contrary to the Pathfinders, they don't eat the entire firepower of the opponent army in the face first turn also help).

As such, I am the proud owner of one of the very few remaining FW unit that actually shoot things during a whole game!

Might try this some time, that said, hulls are nice for BLoS for my suits, so there are points for the Fish.

[SageoftheTimes]

And yet they have the same anit-meq fire power of fire knives.

A 12 man strong unit of fire warriors has the same anti-meq fire of 3 fire knives and for the same points.

So, longer range, anti-vehicular ability, survivability, mobility, those are not important? Something that fires over 5 turns vs. 1-2 turns can make it up over the long-run.
[quote[Meaning that if you had 2 full squads of fire warriors and 3 full squads of crisis suits (Fire knife). You would have the same anti MEQ fire as 5 full units of fire knives. Now add in Devilfish to gain both a LOS/movement blocking unit. To both increase the movement of the fire warriors and grant mobile cover to the suits. You are no longer limited to hiding in your deployment zone behind kroot.[/quote] Or I could just spend the points on other units, like Kroot, Broadsides, or Hammerheads, and give myself additional options beyond driving my units which suck at CC into CC range to fire. And driving the Devilfish out of it's Disruption pod protection. The idea is to charge your units into rapid fire range, to wipe out your opponent. The problem is that it's expensive, the unit has low accuracy (requires additional support from pathfinders to do well, costing more points), and is insanely easy to kill.

You missunderstand. Kroot are not fast enough and die to easy out of cover to be viable in anything but a near static hybrid Tau army.

So, you're talking about a straw man argument? Kroot are bubble-wrap units, that, as you put it are squishy. Fire Warriors don't get much better for 3 more points per model, beyond against guard or nids, and those aren't too tough to beat.

My statement was never fire warrior vs crisis suit. It's fire warriors vs Kroot. To which kroot fill a very limited role in the army. And that is the speed bump/ bubble wrap. Which being only slightly more expensive fire warriors can do along with providing fire that the kroot simply cannot.

You compared FWs vs. Fireknives in terms of firepower, as an additional method of getting more Fireknives. So you were comparing them, just not in the way people assumed of FW > FK, but as equals.

As to kroot: they stand there, take shots/provide cover/block assaults, FWs are typically assumed to have to charge in to do anything, unless you're using gunlines. All you're trading is 4+ armor for 4+ cover (it's incredibly easy to get cover in 5th). They're 3 points less, have some alright benefits, and can get hounds to do semi-decently in combat. No one uses them for their firepower.

Like I said it's a lot easier to say surround your army with kroot so that any outflankers or deep strikers can not land within melta range of your important tanks or charge an important unit. Then it is to explain how to maintain the same blocking system with different units while moving across the board.

Simply because you can't do it with success does not mean it's wrong. It's just more complicated and something that you cannot teach without being able to show the person in person.

So, you limit how far forward your FWs move, and don't use as many (sounds like you do use some) kroot for bubblewrap? The same blocking means less LoS for suits behind the hulls, and limits you to not moving beyond a certain radius. Doesn't sound that great.

[Dreadgrass]

What about the fish to carry them, and the pathfinders to make sure they hit?

Actually, no, I don't. If I included the pathfinders I'd do so to both and it actually benefits the weight of shots to a greater degree, causing Firewarriors to do even better by comparison. and as for the 'fish' It is an optional extra that has no bearing on how well the Firewarriors shoot.

Fireknives have range, can threaten vehicles, and have AP 2.

and Fire warriors are scoring, can threaten hordes and units in cover to a greater extent, and are a mandatory 1+ choice... So there's give and take there.

You mean the supreme survivability of T3? Or the fact that to use them in Fish of 'Fury', you've gotta run them into assault, which they WILL fail in?

I mean the survivability of having 12 wounds, with only a slightly less save, effectively being immune to ID, and having the option of a transport to hide them in. I in no way mentioned Fish of Fury as it's not a tactic I'd be comfortable employing.

Don't forget the bump in leadership.

True, I hadn't mentioned that, Conversely, we could add a shas'ui to match the LD and I think it brings their points comparative closer.

18" double plas, 30" Single Pas, 42" Missile Range. And they can hide behind your hulls for BLoS. Sounds much more survivable to me.

True again, they have a better short range. They both share the 30" "effective" range, and at >30" Firewarriors can't shoot. Though your not getting a whole lot of use out of the much loved plasma rifles if this comes up regularly and generally if a Fire warrior squad isn't within 30" of a target it'll be sitting on an objective in your back lines unmolested.

Wouldn't we all. I'd love for them to have heavy/special weapons, for the combo to have a price drop, and so on. Maybe more firepower, but less survivability then Tacticals. But they don't have heavies or specials. They don't have mobility. They have the ability to charge into range of what they're fighting, and thus either blow up the unit (medium to high light infantry firepower, but squishy), or die trying.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. I'm talking about taking a (compulsory choice) unit and seeing what it can do, I never said they needed anything more, nor did I mention charging into range.

The problem with comparing them to units is that you can always get more fireknives, which you admit are better at their role. HHs can provide decent large blasts, kroot provide some fire once an enemy gets close to them, unless they're going to ground when an enemy fires at them, which is it's own reward.

I don't understand this comment. I was comparing similar point values of FireKnives and Fire Warriors and, against basic MeQ, at <30" Fire Warriors out-shoot the 'Knives. I never said they were better, I said they were different, and they both had pro's and con's.

[SageoftheTimes]

Actually, no, I don't. If I included the pathfinders I'd do so to both and it actually benefits the weight of shots to a greater degree, causing Firewarriors to do even better by comparison. and as for the 'fish' It is an optional extra that has no bearing on how well the Firewarriors shoot.

Alright, so do you run gunlines, or just have that FW squad sitting in cover plinking at things?

and Fire warriors are scoring, can threaten hordes and units in cover to a greater extent, and are a mandatory 1+ choice... So there's give and take there.

You only need to take 1 objective and contest everything else. In Seize Ground, you can take two w/ FWs/Kroot, destroy everything else, if you really want to. And you're comparing FWs to Fireknives now.....Look, just because I have to take 1 FW squad doesn't mean I'll take 2-3 more.

I mean the survivability of having 12 wounds, with only a slightly less save, effectively being immune to ID, and having the option of a transport to hide them in. I in no way mentioned Fish of Fury as it's not a tactic I'd be comfortable employing.

12 W @ T3, vs. BLoS. Can't wound what you can't shoot. The ID bit is silly, because you're gonna get murdered by massed light fire. T3 -> 4 is important, just like 4 -> 5. And gunlines? I'm sure you can beat an unprepared opponent, but any decent infiltrators, assaulters, or a mech-heavy army stops you dead.

True, I hadn't mentioned that, Conversely, we could add a shas'ui to match the LD and I think it brings their points comparative closer.

10p for +1 LD on a T3 shooting unit that needs close range to be effective? Yeah, Nids have squishy shooting, it's called Termagaunts. 5+? Yes. No AP? Yes. Costs half a FW? Yes.

True again, they have a better short range. They both share the 30" "effective" range, and at >30" Firewarriors can't shoot. Though your not getting a whole lot of use out of the much loved plasma rifles if this comes up regularly and generally if a Fire warrior squad isn't within 30" of a target it'll be sitting on an objective in your back lines unmolested.

How many armies don't try to assault? I'm usually getting single plas for 2 turns then double for 1-2. It's not awesome, but it burns through termies, FNP units (BA), and MCs easily. And I have 2 weapons, thank you very much, missiles and plas. I pay a bit more and shoot less to kill MCs and vehicles. I find this worth it.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. I'm talking about taking a (compulsory choice) unit and seeing what it can do, I never said they needed anything more, nor did I mention charging into range.

Getting within 12" = getting in charge range for any unit that isn't horrifically slow. Long range fire can be duplicated by kroot in cover (this is without a fish).

I don't understand this comment. I was comparing similar point values of FireKnives and Fire Warriors and, against basic MeQ, at <30" Fire Warriors out-shoot the 'Knives. I never said they were better, I said they were different, and they both had pro's and con's.

12 shots, S 5 vs. 6 shots S 7 & 3 shots S 6. So 2s vs. 3s on wounds, same deal w/ hits. 3.96 wounds vs. 3.78 wounds. So, .18 less wounds per turn, in a unit that I will have BLoS every turn against most units (and the few units that can fire can't hit me with all except a couple of models). I trade .18 more wounds for MC/Termie/FNP killing, and decent power vs. tranports & side-shots on dakka vehicles (rare, granted). I get a T 4 unit w/ 3+ for .18 less wounds. Scoring can be denied w/ take one or two, contest all else. I'm already taking the one, I don't need to take more, nor do I need to do anything with them beyond using their transport has mobile terrain & dangling them at opponents, because experienced players understand T3 4+ is paper.