5.0 Tactica - Tau Empire

[dahli.llama]

How do you figure Pathfinders + Seeker Missiles is 150 points?

In order to get the missiles you need some sort of platform, so either a 150 point Skyray or placing missiles on every other vehicle you buy. That still costs points. All for a weapon where you need to hit with the markerlight before you can even fire the seeker missile. You've basically given the enemy a 4+ save before you even fired.

I really love the idea of the seeker missiles, but I really can't see how they'd be consistently useful. Tricks like using them to fire at rear armor from a Piranha after moving fast are one thing, but they don't seem reliable enough to make me want to drop suits in their place.

[SabrX]

Pathfinder + Seeker missiles are best used in Alpha Strike tactic. Past that it's unreliable. Essentially its distributing anti-tank into two units. Lose either of the two and that neutralizes your anti-mech capability.

IMO Railgun Hammerheads or Broadsides, Fusion Gun Piranha, and Missile Pod Crisis Suits are more reliable and long lasting then Seeker Missiles.

[Kirby]

I think people are trying to trickle over HK ideas into Tau which simply doesn't work. You need multiple guns (the seeker and markerlight) for it to work and the inefficiency of markerlights outside of pathfinders means you're shooting at 1 or 2 units (if you're taking them as drones they are horrendously expensive, stealth suits = less crisis, skyrays = less hammerheads/broadsides). So your 1 or 2 units of pathfinders markerlights which can affect more significant guns (and number of guns) by raising BS or lowering cover for another unit are being used to fire 1 shot weapons.

As a few have already alluded to. Inefficient.

And why oh why would you waste a seeker missile on trying to kill a marine? Not to mention having used 4 MLs on them (1 to shoot and 3 to remove cover). Yay 1 dead marine! Or I could use 4 MLs to strip cover and give my suits BS4. 3-6 Plasma and 6 MPs = more than 1 dead marine. Back to inefficient.

[getupandgo]

My apologies for coming into the argument late, I must of missed the original point. Personally, I wouldn't leave home without either my pathfinders or deathrains (or fireknives or firestorms depending on my mood).

Seeker support is good, but you only have those 6 shots. If you play your suits well and keep them alive, they should be getting off more than 6 shots. In my case, I also don't use markerlights outside of pathfinder teams (which are very vulnerable to fire) so the choice of targets would be slim.

As to kroot, just because we are not an assault army does not mean we cant have a good assault unit. 1 unit does not an army make. It is often difficult for kroot to pull off counter charges as that would imply we have other units that can hold enemy cc units in place to get counter charged. Also, having rapid fire weapons also makes their role as a counter charge unit harder. Giving a moderate cc boost (whether its via I boost, WS boost, special rules granted by shapers, etc.) to kroot would allow them to fulfill a solid role in the tau list a bit more effectively than they do now. It wouldn't make tau viable as a CC list. A no armour save t3 unit will never be THAT scary in cc.

I didn't say take only 6 seekers, I said the pathfinders and the 6 seekers cost you 150 points. I take a lot more of each than that. They work fantastically, and they are a hell of a lot more resiliant than a squad of deathrains. If you lose a deathrain, you're out 2 shots, if you lose 2 pathfinders, you're out nothing, because the seekers can still fire from their platforms. You force the enemy to make almost impossible target priority decisions, which is part of what wins games for me with my build.

You might get more shots with the deathrain, but they aren't going to be as effective.

Str 7 AP4 hitting on 4s re-rolling, vs. str 8 AP 3 hitting on 2s.

Like I said, seekers with pathfinder support do everything deathrain can do, and do it better. They're more resilient and they have more flexibility.

I think Kroot are pretty much fine as they are. They are quite effective, and I really can't see them being re-vamped much in a new codex. The shaper could definitely use a boost and a cost decrease though, as I don't think many people use one now.

How do you figure Pathfinders + Seeker Missiles is 150 points?

In order to get the missiles you need some sort of platform, so either a 150 point Skyray or placing missiles on every other vehicle you buy. That still costs points. All for a weapon where you need to hit with the markerlight before you can even fire the seeker missile. You've basically given the enemy a 4+ save before you even fired.

I really love the idea of the seeker missiles, but I really can't see how they'd be consistently useful. Tricks like using them to fire at rear armor from a Piranha after moving fast are one thing, but they don't seem reliable enough to make me want to drop suits in their place.

Yes, they only cost 150 points. Do you not already have devilfish, hammerheads, and/or piranhas in your list?

And I don't see how I've given the enemy a 4+ cover save. If you look at the adepticon FAQ, which is the biggest 40k tournament in the world at this point, seekers ignore LoS and intervening cover. If they do happen to be in cover by being right up against it, markerlights take care of that. Seekers and especially markerlights give you the flexibility to do a lot more than if you just shoot missile pods at it. I couple them with fusion blasters, and a railgun or two depending, and they work fantastically in conjunction with one another.

I consistently win tournament games with seekers, so if you don't want to find them useful, that's fine, but they do operate well for me.

Pathfinder + Seeker missiles are best used in Alpha Strike tactic. Past that it's unreliable. Essentially its distributing anti-tank into two units. Lose either of the two and that neutralizes your anti-mech capability.

IMO Railgun Hammerheads or Broadsides, Fusion Gun Piranha, and Missile Pod Crisis Suits are more reliable and long lasting then Seeker Missiles.

Do I need to have seekers left after I've destroyed just about every piece of enemy armor on the board? I wiped tyranid MCs off the board turn one in two recent tournament games, I drop rhinos like nothing, anything av13 and less is absolutely no problem for me.

I find that this build is plenty reliable and long lasting, because I often table opponents with it.

It's not distributing anti-tank to two units, it's distributing redundant anti-tank to over a dozen units, all of which play off each other and fill in the holes if one happens to fall. I generally will lose one seeker a game due to a tank or transport being destroyed, I've never lost more than 2.

[dahli.llama]

My 4+ cover save argument was alluding to the fact that you need to hit with the pathfinders before you can even fire the Seeker Missile. So basically you have a 4+ Hit roll, a 2+ hit roll, and then a 2+ wound roll. It is little different from a 2+ hit roll, a 2+ wound roll, and a 4 + cover save, except that you essentially know how many save before you fire.

It might be a bit of a stretch, but essentially there are still 3 separate dice rolls that must pass in order to have a successful shot.

As for the 150 points, when you said 6 Seeker Missiles, I immediately assumed a Skyray. If you're putting them on other vehicles, then that's a bit more understandable.

I still prefer using Pathfinders to boost the shooting of more reliable and shootier units, but I can understand adding some Seeker Missiles into the army if the points are available. Pathfinders are going to be present in most lists, so really it's just a matter of finding points for the Missiles, and in many cases an extra suit, Piranha or Kroot is going to be more useful to me than a bunch of one use missiles.

[getupandgo]

My 4+ cover save argument was alluding to the fact that you need to hit with the pathfinders before you can even fire the Seeker Missile. So basically you have a 4+ Hit roll, a 2+ hit roll, and then a 2+ wound roll. It is little different from a 2+ hit roll, a 2+ wound roll, and a 4 + cover save, except that you essentially know how many save before you fire.

It might be a bit of a stretch, but essentially there are still 3 separate dice rolls that must pass in order to have a successful shot.

As for the 150 points, when you said 6 Seeker Missiles, I immediately assumed a Skyray. If you're putting them on other vehicles, then that's a bit more understandable.

I still prefer using Pathfinders to boost the shooting of more reliable and shootier units, but I can understand adding some Seeker Missiles into the army if the points are available. Pathfinders are going to be present in most lists, so really it's just a matter of finding points for the Missiles, and in many cases an extra suit, Piranha or Kroot is going to be more useful to me than a bunch of one use missiles.

Ah ok, Yes, you do need another to-hit roll, but it's coming from a variety of sources, AND the huge advantage of the seekers is you fire them as you need them. Use one, and if it doesn't work, use another, and then another. There's no overkill with them, because you can use them at any time, and out of the normal order of operations for firing. You can also use them from shaken and stunned platforms, and the torrent of fire that you can unleash when you have a large amount of them and a large amount of markerlight hits is remarkable. It's not the only trick in my arsenal, but it's definitely a powerful one, and one that opponents don't see coming 90% of the time.

I personally find piranhas and suits to be extremely over-costed, and ineffective compared to the seeker/pathfinder build.

I have done a lot better in games since I've made the switch, but it's all a matter of what your play-style is. If you've got a better build that works for you, and wins you games, use it.

[dahli.llama]

Could you post a list of your Seeker army?

I'm honestly a bit curious on how exactly it's setup.

[AbusePuppy]

The problem with Seekers is basically this: where are your Markerlight hits coming from?

"From Pathfinders, duh." you say. "They're the cheapest Markerlights in the codex."

Right, okay. No disagreement there; lots of people, myself included, use Pathfinders for that very reason. Hell, they can bring two Seekers of their own to the party if you really want them to.

But say you want to kill two Rhinos (Chimeras, Raiders, Trukks, etc). You've got plenty of Seekers sitting around the board, so this isn't a problem, right?

Except your Pathfinders can only "shoot" one of them. And if they do, they aren't helping any of the rest of your army that turn. You're slathering 3-4 Markerlights onto a transport, then immediately blowing it up with a 10pt missile and wasting the other ML hits- and thus in effect, the Pathfinders themselves, who are fragile enough that they aren't going to see a lot of turns on the board.

Markerlights are a force multiplier. They should be used to help break tough units on whichever part of the field you are concentrating fire that turn, whether by boosting accuracy or by denying saves. Elementary math tells us that force multipliers are best used where we are concentrating the largest amount of power- you want to use ML hits on full units of Crisis or Broadsides shooting, not two Gun Drones. Seeker Missiles break this rule, trying to get you to do the opposite.

The other alternative, of course, is to run "solo" Markerlights in your army, but here you encounter the same problem- you cannot split your fire to multiple targets (in all but a few cases), and so the rest of the unit must shoot at the target of the missile as well. This means that either A, you are wasting shots on something you can't hurt (Fire Warriors, follow your Shas'ui's example and take that Chimera down! Pew pew!) or B, the unit can destroy it, in which case why aren't you just using those points to make it more effective at its job? (Deathrains with a Markerlight are great at killing light tanks, because they can launch a Seeker Missile and... er... oh.)

I personally find piranhas and suits to be extremely over-costed, and ineffective compared to the seeker/pathfinder build.

wat

Fireknives are 62 points for 3-4 S6+ shots out to 36" range. (Yes, I know, the Plasma shots only go to 24". Nitpicking.) You can buy them in squads of three without taking anything else. Combined with Markerlights, you have the only AP2 weapon that pierces cover in the game. They are 100% mobile as well, moving 12" per turn in better-than-jump infantry manner. And they have near-MEQ stats and multiple wounds. What else do you want, honestly? They're as tough as a Terminator against all but a couple weapons (Missile Launchers, basically.) Their cost is on par with said Termie with an upgraded weapon, and you don't have to take a squad full of normal-weapon dorks to get them. How many other codices get squads full of heavy/special weapons in 3+ armor?

Like I said, seekers with pathfinder support do everything deathrain can do, and do it better. They're more resilient and they have more flexibility.

I'm curious to hear why you think Pathfinders are more resilient than Crisis. They have worse toughness, worse save, and can't JSJ. Suits may get targeted first, but that's because most people recognize them as a threat, not because they're weaker. It's like trying to say a Penitent Engine is tougher than a Land Raider because people always try to blow up the Raider before the Engine.

I wiped tyranid MCs off the board turn one in two recent tournament games, I drop rhinos like nothing, anything av13 and less is absolutely no problem for me.

Just how many Seekers are you using, anyways? Rhinos I can totally believe, but as it so happens Missile Pods do just fine against Rhinos anyways, so that's not a terribly impressive accomplishment. Killing MCs? That's five/seven Seekers apiece (depending on the variety). And most Tyranid lists are running 3-4 such beasties. AV13? That's roughly twelve Seekers to get a meaningful damage result. If you are throwing 120 pts of disposable weaponry at one tank, you are not winning games, not to mention the twelve Markerlight hits you're wasting there.

I would also like to see this army, because you're making me curious.

[scarvet]

I still can't understand the claim the Deathrain is ineffective...let alone the argument of pathfinder>piranha....

[Kirby]

The TL MP does what the whole army can do, it can damage armor. When you compare it directly to a MP/PR the MP/PR loses you out on the tiniest bit of anti-armor ability which you don't really need for much, much improved duality.

In simple terms. MP/PR gets more similar shots. More shots is always better because of the way statistics works. Sure yours hit 75% of the time and mine hit 50% of the time but my ability for super good (or super bad) rolls is better than yours. You are maxed at 6 shots. I'm maxed at 12 shots. Add in markerlights and I can wipe a squad. You will never ever ever ever ever do that. For the increase in points and the minor ability lost against tanks + the AP2? Done.

Dunno what PF>piranhas argument but PF and pirnahas compete in the FA slot and both provide different roles to the Tau army. One's a harras/blocker and the other is a multiplier. Ah getupandgo said he found them overcosted. Well for what crisis suits do you're not going to find anything else in the codex that does it. Puts out S6/7 shots at a high rate whilst being mobile. Piranhas do something else nothing else in the book can do. It can get out there and block things and put fusion in rear arcs w/o stupidly sacrificing firepower (by DSing suits). If you want to compare prices to other books, ya Tau, Eldar, DH, WH, DE, etc. are overcosted, you get used to it (i.e. Piranhas vs Land Speeder). If you want to use Tau, you've got to deal with it.

[neko]

Back before I took some time out from 40k (just as Apocolypse was being released), I used to play Tau and remember having Shas'ui with markerlights and target locks leading my Firewarrior teams. This meant that I was getting my markerlights and didn't have to waste my pulse fire just to designate targets.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this approach to markerlights? Is it still worth doing in the new edition?

[Kirby]

Since FWs aren't really a good unit, no. They have to get out of their transport to be effective which means they are flamer bait and don't have the T or Sv to withstand it unlike say Marines. Fish don't have firepoints so they can't utilise those to move and shoot from safety. Other than the ML they are unable to get special weapons and are thus anti-infantry first, second and third. Everything in the Tau army is S5 or more (barring flamers) so they have no real need for more S5 which can't act as anti-tank in a pinch. S5 only does so mcuh (s6 on the other hand...).

So if you did take FW you'd need to take more anti-tank elsewhere which means Broadsides over Hammerheads or TL MP suits or MP/PR suits or more Piranhas, etc. Overall it makes the list weaker as your opponent can target "anti-tank" or "anti-infantry" units rather than "anti-tank and infantry units".

W/o a points drop, special weapons (even if on drones that can move and shoot) or a fire point (unlikely) FWs will stay as min scoring units for the most part. In higher point games when you can afford 9 broadsides, FW in fish can be a good addition for extra anti-infantry but when you're strapped for points at 1500-2k I'd much rather have Crisis, Piranhas, Broadsides & Hammerheads than FW.

[dahli.llama]

I plan on running 2 Piranhas in my 1000 point list and 1 squad of Pathfinders. I'm torn, though, on whether to run the Piranhas as a squad or as two separate units. Obviously as single units I have more flexibility on how I move and shoot with them, but they also are a possible 4 killpoints. In a squad, I'm more limited in movement, but they are only 2 killpoints. The other disadvantage to the squad is they have a 4/6 chance of being destroyed, as opposed to only a 3/6 chance if separate.

Any thoughts or experiences on how to run them?

[AbusePuppy]

Lone Piranhas are always risky- how common are light anti-armor weapons, like Autocannons, Multilasers. Scatter Lasers, Heavy Bolters, etc, in your area? These are the weapons that are really going to make a squadron cry.

Having run them both ways at 1500, I didn't find the bit of extra maneuverability from being alone to be a big deal. Piranhas are usually dying to pretty much anything that hits them anyways, so also dying to Immobilize was not horribly crippling. Having the Gun Drones in a larger squadron is generally nice for assaults and such, but it does make them an easier shooting target.

Honestly, I would run them as a squad. Halving the KP you give up is a pretty big deal and the disadvantages are not particularly crippling. It also allows you to pull some other tricks- for example, you can buy just one Disruption Pod for the team and both of them will benefit from it (as per the Units in Cover rules, since 50% of the squad is obscured) and you can gain virtual AV11 on pretty much all sides by keeping the vehicles in the squadron aimed at the nearest enemy unit and "covering" each other.

[SabrX]

Ah yes, the common dilemna of fast attack slots. Choosing between 1 squad of Pathfinders with 2 seperate Piranhas vs. 2 squads of Pathfinders vs. 1 squad of Piranhas. I find having a pathfinder squad in 2000 points provides solid support while having a single squad is sufficient in 1500 points. Thus at 2000 points I would field Piranhas as a single squad while in 1500 points they fly solo. Don't forget Piranhas have front AV11 making them more durable then their light-AV fast skimmer counterparts in other 40k armies (Land Speeders, Vipers, etc..).

[dahli.llama]

I played a 1000 point game against Dark Angels tonight. The battle report can be seen here: http://www.meanderingthedunesea.com/?p=929

[razormasticator]

what are the best methods to keeping your FW's in their fish alive? Counter assault and or objective grabbing.

Every time I unload my FW's they get slaughtered.

[dahli.llama]

what are the best methods to keeping your FW's in their fish alive? Counter assault and or objective grabbing.

Every time I unload my FW's they get slaughtered.

Don't unload them.

If you do unload for some reason, make sure that they are either isolated or very well supported. I wouldn't suggest counter-assault, but some kind of higher priority threat nearby or the ability to completely wipe out the target.

[razormasticator]

Yeah, thats what I am thinking. But a squad of 10 Khorne Berzerkers assaulting my fish worries me. I already roll with flechette dischargers, I was actually thinking of upgrading 2 fish to warfish with SMS and Multitracker as late game objective grabbers etc.

[Russell's teapot]

Yeah, thats what I am thinking. But a squad of 10 Khorne Berzerkers assaulting my fish worries me. I already roll with flechette dischargers, I was actually thinking of upgrading 2 fish to warfish with SMS and Multitracker as late game objective grabbers etc.

That seems a good idea, but if you are running multiple Devilfish, then one with drones could be useful for the same thing.

12" move to grab objective, drones disembark 2", run D6", jump 6" to contest another objective. Only 'inmyheadhammer' as I've yet to play with my tau, but it seems it could work.