The Emperor is Dead

[Wyatt]

Ok, catchy title in place, on with the thread.

My friend has a strange but interesting theory; he believes that the Emperor died 10,000 years ago, in the famous battle against Horus. It was covered up, and his body placed on the Golden Throne, where he remains dead (unbeknownst (is that even a word?) to the rest of humanity); and what is left of the Emperor is just myth and legends that have culminated into something bigger than the Emperor could ever be.

I was wondering if there's any validity in this theory - could it be possible? Could the Emperor really be dead?

[PondaNagura]

sure, not sure what difference it would really make, if in the event He has been dead all this time

[Lord Malorne]

As always, things with the emperor always end up with the question of..the light of astronomicon.

But as PondaNagura said..not sure what difference it really makes.

[Ddraiglais]

It depends on if you believe in the Star Child. Supposedly if the Big E did croak, then Chaos would be defeated and the Emperor would come back a bazillion cadjillion times more powerful than he ever was. Humanity would reign supreme among the stars, and GW would be out of a product to sell.

[DarkMatter2]

As the new rulebook states, the Emperor's body is in fact dead, but his Spirit is tied to His physical form, and His spirit is basically "over 9000", guiding and protecting the entirety of the Imperium, while simultaneously keeping the Chaos Gods and Mork and Ork in their respective places.

[Argastes]

Your friend isn't the first one to propose this, but I think it clashes with most of what the background material tells us. Of course, you could always claim that everything the background material tells us is just Imperial propaganda; that is the standard excuse. I don't think it's a very good excuse, since much of the material in question is not presented as coming from an Imperial source, and since there are practical problems that would have to be explained if the Emperor is actually dead (how does the Astronomicon work? The Soul Binding process?) And, of course, because when GW presents background material that's meant to be interpreted as propaganda that is actually untrue, they usually provide pretty obvious hints to that effect. In the 20+ years that GW background materials have been providing us with information about the Emperor, they've never really included such hints.

Bottom line, there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe what your friend believes. That doesn't stop plenty of other people from believing it, though. I guess some people just enjoy believing something that contradicts the information we have. Perhaps they derive pleasure from "knowing" a "secret" like this (even if they had to make it up themselves). More power to 'em, I suppose.

[cool0001]

Isnt the Emperor going to die anyway WD 343 says "999.M41 Tech Preists of the Adeptus Mechanicus discover failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that are far beyond their ability to repair"

[Norminator]

As always, things with the emperor always end up with the question of..the light of astronomicon.

But as PondaNagura said..not sure what difference it really makes.

Maybe it's generated alone by the sacrificied psykers, and then focussed by the other psykers in the choir? Very powerful but entirely non-Emperor....

Just playing devil's advocate, but I don't think that astronomican by itself is evidence of the Emperor being alive.

[DarkMatter2]

Isnt the Emperor going to die anyway WD 343 says "999.M41 Tech Preists of the Adeptus Mechanicus discover failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that are far beyond their ability to repair"

Dude, the Golden Throne has been running for 10,000 years. If there was a flaw in it that was going to stop it from operating, it would have shut the thing down by now.

[Argastes]

Maybe it's generated alone by the sacrificied psykers, and then focussed by the other psykers in the choir? Very powerful but entirely non-Emperor....

Just playing devil's advocate, but I don't think that astronomican by itself is evidence of the Emperor being alive.

The problem with this theory is that GW has never provided any hints that the standard explanation of the Astronomican's function--the ONLY explanation, in fact--is untrue or suspect. As I said, when GW means for information to be taken as propaganda and understood to be untrue or misleading, they usually provide clear hints to that effect.

I suppose one might argue that they have never said anything that would suggest the official explanation ISN'T progaganda either, but if you are willing go to that point, then you are essentially just arbitarily deciding what background is "true" and what isn't, based on your own personal preference without any basis or rationale. At that point, you're really just making up your own setting, so why not leave 40K behind entirely and write your own fictional universe?

[cool0001]

Dude, the Golden Throne has been running for 10,000 years. If there was a flaw in it that was going to stop it from operating, it would have shut the thing down by now.

Somthing could be running out e.g nutrients.
WD also says The light of the Astronomican grows dimmer. Contact is lost with Ultima Macharia and is intermittent at best with Macragge and Cypra Mundi.

[Ddraiglais]

Dude, the Golden Throne has been running for 10,000 years. If there was a flaw in it that was going to stop it from operating, it would have shut the thing down by now.

Or maybe it's a special kind of motor oil that they ran out of, and the tech priests don't know where any more of the "magical potion" (Pennzoil) is.

[Argastes]

Dude, the Golden Throne has been running for 10,000 years. If there was a flaw in it that was going to stop it from operating, it would have shut the thing down by now.

Not necessarily true; nothing indicates that the flaw has been there for the whole 10,000 years. Any machine can develop malfunctions after it's been running for a period of time. Last month, my Volvo's head gasket blew out; that doesn't mean that the head gasket has been faulty ever since the car was manufactured, it means that it was okay initially, but eventually wore out and failed after working fine for a while. With a machine as complex and arcane as the Golden Throne, there are probably about a trillion things that could go wrong without necessarily being the result of flaws that have been present since the Throne was first built.

Furthermore, it is actually entirely possible that that the flaw has existed the whole time, but only resulted in a noticeable malfunction after 10,000 years of continuous operation. In real-life machines of various types, there can be all manner of flaws that permit the machine to operate fine for a while despite the flaw, but eventually, after a certain time period, do cause a noticeable malfunction. Anyone who works on cars can probably tell you about a thousand examples of such flaws. You seem to view it as inconceivable that a flaw in the initial design or construction could take as long as 10,000 years to manifest itself into a noticeable problem, but again, given the extreme complexity and semi-magical nature of the Golden Throne, I don't think you can make that assumption. It's not like you (or anyone else) has the faintest notion of how the thing works.

[DarkMatter2]

Not necessarily true; nothing indicates that the flaw has been there for the whole 10,000 years. Any machine can develop malfunctions after it's been running for a period of time. Last month, my Volvo's head gasket blew out; that doesn't mean that the head gasket has been faulty ever since the car was manufactured, it means that it was okay initially, but eventually wore out and failed after working fine for a while. With a machine as complex and arcane as the Golden Throne, there are probably about a trillion things that could go wrong without necessarily being the result of flaws that have been present since the Throne was first built.

The Golden Throne is maintained by superhumans and almost certainly the best the AM can produce.

As far as I can tell, the flaw was discovered after a brief flicker in the Astronomican. It is more likely that the flicker represents some momentary weakening of the Emperor's control than it does of some sort of newly developed flaw in the Golden Throne itself.


The Throne is 10,000 years old for God's sake. That is a LONGGGG time. If the machine had some way to develop a flaw which was going to threaten its continued operation, it would have developed it earlier - at least it makes sense that it would have.

[Argastes]

The Golden Throne is maintained by superhumans and almost certainly the best the AM can produce.

And...? Do you mean to say that it's failure is therefore an absolute impossibility?

The Throne is 10,000 years old for God's sake. That is a LONGGGG time. If the machine had some way to develop a flaw which was going to threaten its continued operation, it would have developed it earlier - at least it makes sense that it would have.

Again: Given our complete lack of knowledge about the mechanism and function of the Golden Throne, we simply can't make these assumptions. It's absurd for you to claim that the Throne "would have" done this or that--as if you're a certified Golden Throne technician? You have absolutely no idea what is possible or impossible, or even likely or unlikely, with regard to operation of the Golden Throne. And what basis do we have for determining what does and doesn't "make sense" with regard to the Golden Throne? Our ideas of what "makes sense" in regard to real machines? The Golden Throne is so incredibly, radically different from any real-life machine that all our preconceptions about what "makes sense" when it comes to machines are utterly worthless.

In engineering, there is a term called "Mean Time Between Failures", or MTBF. It is, obviously, a measure of how long a system can be expected to operate before something goes wrong with it. What you are basically claiming is that you have some sort of "realistic" or sensible idea of what the Golden Throne's MTBF would be. What I am saying is that any such idea you might have is either arbitrary or based upon the example of real-life machines, and in either case, is completely worthless.

[DapperAnarchist]

To put this on a good basis - EYHBTIAL. (Everything You Have Been Told Is A Lie).

[Frankye]

If he's dead he's either a "god" in the warp, battling the chaos gods (or possibly drinking fungus beer with gork), or he's reborn and battling the hordes of chaos (or possibly dringking beer with Jagatai Kahn, Leman Russ, Corax and Vulkan).
Or maybe drinking beer while fighting since he's awesome and win.

[DarkMatter2]

Again: Given our complete lack of knowledge about the mechanism and function of the Golden Throne, we simply can't make these assumptions. It's absurd for you to claim that the Throne "would have" done this or that--as if you're a certified Golden Throne technician?

Last I checked this was a forum for casual discussion of a universe we all know and love. This forum is about speculation, about throwing out ideas to help understand the fluff.

Yes, I find it unlikely that a machine could have operated for nearly twice the entire length of current human civilization and not manifested a flaw it had developed until the "current day" within the fluff.

I reject your assertion that the Golden Throne is totally, radically different than any machine we have today. There have been no depictions of the Golden Throne that show it to be some sort of mystical otherworldly machine. It is advanced, being made from Golden Age tech, sure. However, We don't know that Golden Age tech is so radically different that we can't even understand it, so I have to be extremely suspicious of someone who tries to push that argument when it suits them, after earlier appealing to analogies involving cars.

Can I say for absolute one hundred percent fact that the Golden Throne couldn't have either developed a flaw, or possessed an early flaw that only manifests itself today? No.


Does your current condescending spiel have any relevance to my opinion? Not really. You are essentially trying to establish some sort of "plausible deniability" to the whole thing - establish that it is POSSIBLE that such a flaw could develop or only recently manifest. I never really believed that it was impossible, just that it is so unlikely that a better explanation should be sought.

[DapperAnarchist]

Yeah, its not a mystical otherworldly machine... apart from the psi-reactors that feed human souls to the Emperor, or the warp gate contained within... the Throne is massively different from anything we could conceive of building.

Your argument is saying "its not a behaviour that exists in my experience, so it can't happen"... Which isn't very good. And, actually, circular (on the unstated premises).

[Wolf Scout Ewan]

Kinda depends on how you define dead. IMHO he died a long time ago and his physical form containing the Emporer/Star Child is the only thing keeping him from ascending.

The Emporer is on critical life support and pretty much dead for all purposes.