50% of armies on average are Marines, so you'll want (hell, need) Rending to kill them quickly. Anyway, against most things with an armour save, Rending is better than +1A. It adds lethality to the brood which can't be found readily in the list (with the exception of Genestealers), or in many army lists (most other armies only have Rending on pure assault units, having it on a shooty unit is nasty).I will point out that ST are cheaper- only two points, sure, but those points add up when you're building an entire army- and performs better against most Orks and IG.
Yeah, but you're forgetting about Fearless enemy units, which don't care how many wounds you inflict. Being able to pile extra wounds onto them (due to 'No Retreat') is sweet.Combat resolution shouldn't be much of a problem; the Tyrant only has four wounds, and you should be inflicting ~3 to anything you attack. If you lose combat, you're already dead and No Retreat is irrelevant. (Admittedly, in rare situations you can roll like crap and fail to kill enough guys, but I wouldn't bet on long shots like that.) Similarly, Acid Maw will only net you one, or perhaps two, wound rerolls most games. On Genestealers I might find it useful (except for the expense and prohibition on taking other, better, biomorphs), but rerolling one wound in six just isn't that good a deal to me for that many points.
Acid Maw is only marginal if you just assault basic infantry. You don't use the Tyrant to eat basic infantry (initially at least), she's been brought onto the tabel instead of another Warrior brood, so she can eat enemy heroes and Monstrous Creatures. A Warrior brood with the right upgrades can eat enemy infantry no problems, it's those Greater Daemons, Princes, Wraithlords etc that you need to deal with. She's got the speed and the killyness to do it.
Not Tzeentch, Slannesh . I don't understand what point you're making; higher Initative is always better than low Initiative, ask any Ork player. Getting bio-plasma at the same time as Banshees/KoS is powerful, as neither is going to ignore S6 easily. At I5 they'll usually get all their attacks in, even if Furiously Charged, and S5 rending = death to most things. Maybe I could use the points elsewhere, but a few more Gaunts doesn't really matter, compared to the power of higher Initiative in combat. Warriors are your second line, they're designed to enter pointless Gaunt combats and rip into the enemy. Also, they have to be able to take charges from enemy assault units.No character in the SM army is better than I5; many of them are I4. Only Tzeench and certain Eldar units get that high outside of SM, really. I think the 15+ points you're spending to go slightly faster every once in a while could be much better spent on buying another half of a Tyranid Warrior or three gaunts. (I can certainly see the use of the WS upgrades, as I sometimes buy them as well; I just don't think that the full package is something to take every time. My solution for most special characters is letting them play catch with one of my Devilfexes; there aren't many targets that can soak six successful wounds per turn without feeling it.)
Well, all that massed bolt pistol has to kill something (cos it re-rolls to wound). I find, like with Orks, that once you go over 20 models in a squad it just becomes too unwieldy and slow. Anyway, another 4 models isn't a big difference, I don't see the need to totally gimp the unit of any effectiveness (yay, twin-linked laspistol!), just to get 4 more Gaunts.See, this is where I'm confused. If all you use your troops for is meatshields, why are you paying points to give them better guns? You're paying one more point for +1S (which is a good deal, in general) and trading reroll to hit for reroll to wound; but since Gaunts aren't really a unit that's designed to kill things, that seems like wasted resources. I can take 20% more Gaunts than you can for the same number of points and they're pretty much the same effectiveness. Unless you can point out something I'm missing, because I am well aware of what the stats on the two guns are. I'm asking what's the point of taking the upgrade?
No no, you missed the point. I'm saying, it's 5 points more to just buy a twin-linked strangler, compared to buying a single venom cannon (no 2nd gun, not twin-linked).Because I can take a Strangler and a Cannon and shoot both every turn. Against vehicles (which are what my 'Fexes generally are shooting from turns 1-4) this gives me a major boost in firepower, as the Strangler will sometimes get hits in (and even penetrating ones). I'm guessing you use your 'Fex in an anti-infantry role, but I find that Tyranids have so little anti-tank it's important to maximize it whenever possible, hence VC on a Carnifex. Generally two or three of them, in fact.
The Venom cannon is totally worthless in 5th edition. Here are a few reasons why;
1. At best (after buying ES for the 'Fex), you get 1 hit per turn on average.
2. The only vehicles you can reliably threaten are open-topped; aside from Orks and a handful of other light vehicles (Sentinels, Piranha etc), other vehicles laugh at your damage potential. Most Imperial/Chaos vehicles pack extra armour (even after the price increase), so on transports (the only thing usually moving inside 36" of your Carnifex) it's a bit pointless.
3. It eats up points you could use on defensive upgrade and/or twin-linking the strangler.
Doesn't auto-penetrate, you're assuming the target is open-topped. Most vehicles are not. 'Only glancing' is pathetic.Really? I'm pretty sure that you'll find an average one hit that auto-penetrates will kill more vehicles than an average of 2.5 hits that need sixes to even glance. Against non-Ork armor, Fleshborers (and most other Tyranid guns that aren't mounted on a 'Fex) simply fail to work at all unless you're shooting their rear arc. And if your opponent is letting your squads of troops waltz into the rear arc of their tanks... well, let's just say against an opponent that dull you should probably be able to eke out a victory no matter what.
I was making a joke about the venom cannon's effectiveness; in-game I would never shoot any vehicle with anti-infantry weapons.
Yeah, but I don't fire strangler at tanks (usually), cos the likelyhood of getting the hole over the vehicle's hull is unlikely. So, taking your maths at face value (blast weapons are quite weird to work out with math-hammer, cos you don't technically 'miss' with them, you just scatter, which gets into the meta-game of enemy deployment ie it could just scatter onto a seperate target entirely), you waste the strangler and get one hit with the Venom Cannon. Alright, lets roll for damage...damn, I need at least a 4+ to do anything."More accurate"? Carnifex + Enhanced Senses gives a 50% hit rate with VC; Strangler is less than that, coming in somewhere just over 34% if memory serves. Obviously, twin-linking is good, but with a Sniperfex I'm getting three shots- two VC one BS- against your single-shot-with-reroll. A TL Strangler will hit reasonably often, but it's still only S8, which means against anything problematic (AV11+) there is a very good chance you won't do anything to it, god forbid AV13 or 14. Three shots means I can miss with a BS, miss with one VC, and if the third manages to hit I still have a nigh-guaranteed shake against anything that isn't a Monolith or Land Raider.
If we compare to a Zoey brood, you can see why Venom cannons = fail. Zoey's fire 3 shots of S10 at same BS3, but with 12" less range. They get 1-2 hits, and at worst they'll glance on a 4+, penetrate on a 5+. Against most other types of vehicle (most common form are transports), they're essentially firing railguns at medium range.
I would, because its a weapon whichI find it hard to call a S10 AP4 Assult 2 gun "crap." Maybe my standards are just too low, but most armies would kill for something like that at a bargain-basement price of 35pts. Firing two weapons is one of the main strengths of being an MC- if you don't use it, you're wasting major potential to up your fire output.
A; Has no other purpose but anti-tank, yet fails to do significant damage even the lightest armour which isn't open-topped
B; Fires 2 shots a turn at BS3
As for firing two gun, yes that's cool, but the strangler and venom cannon are the only two bio-weapons with 36" range (so taking devourers/death-spitters isn't really an option). At that range, you can avoid assaults (which deliver those nasty hidden powerfists) and some anti-MC weaponry (plasma guns, meltaguns, multi-meltas), and increase your chances of gaining 4+ cover from nearby broods (probably Warriors, if not another MC like a walking Tyrant).
Maybe you have good times with the venom cannon (or just play a lot of mechanised Orks), but it got seriously nerfed by the new combined damage table for glancing. Back in the day, it could be counted on to disable enemy armour (or on a good day even kill it); these days, you need good dice to cause the most minor damage.
Remember, that S10 simply means you're likely to equal the AV value (going over doesn't make a difference), it doesn't help at all when you go to roll damage. Landraiders now pack Machine Spirit without exception (so stun/shaken doesn't do much), Monolith laughs at your glancing (it too can fire most of it's guns while stunned/shaken). Against lighter armour, the strangler and even death-spitters end up better, because unlike the VC they have a chance to penetrate.
Why would I be Running? The idea is a slow march into enemy lines, laying down bio-weapon fire (stranglers, deathspitters, and fleshborers for when I get to point-blank range). The whole army packs assault weapons, so picking when to assault is largely a personal preference, you can still shoot with maximum effectiveness that turn.Basically, it boils down to this: if you're running, you aren't shooting. It seems pretty "Duh!," but why put guns on something that wants to be running to get into CC as soon as possible? And if you're going to stop and take shots, why do you have all those CC biomorphs on there? Tyranid units should be specialized- aim all your biomorphs to accomplishing one purpose and take a different unit for other roles. Even then, I think you undervalue Warriors that are "just" double-wound Marines with +1S while in CC. Even basic Warriors can put some serious hurt on most armies, and if they have another squad to back them up they can take anything short of assult specialists.
As for Warriors, yes I do see them as 'glass cannons', because mass S4 can pull them down (unless you shell out for 'carapace). You need to cause maximum damage before the enemy gets their return attacks in (especially those annoying hidden powerfists). Basic Warriors are good, but S5 Rending+bio-plasma at I10 is even better.
I believe in making each unit stand on it's own two feet, because you never know what casualties you'll take or how you'll be positioned at a given time in-game. Warriors with S5 Rending attacks at I5 can take on pretty much anything, and their bio-plasma can net a few kills prior to their regular attacks.
Yeah, but you give up completely their ability to lay down nasty bio-weapon fire prior to the charge. Warriors offer some of the best ranged firepower in the list (Carnifex are a bit 'eggs in one basket' at times), it's as much a waste as a Tau player taking twin-flamers on a Crisis suit and Deepstriking him behind enemy lines.Also, "Ravener Warriors" are actually pretty much the same price. Leaping, ST+RC, +1 WS, +1 I, Bioplasma works out to the same price as a ST+RC Ravener, but with the advantage of Synapse and the disadvantage of no Fleet or DS (and Bioplasma instead of one normal attack, which is good and bad.)
Yeah, hence I spent all the best gear on the Warriors+Carnifex, while keeping the cannon fodder simple+effective. Maybe I could squeeze in a few more models here and there, but thats more Kill-points (something you do need to keep an eye on in 5th edition) and having several 'meh' units is worse than having a few less, but much more effective, units.With the list you initially posted, I can trim ~120 points off it between the Gaunts, Warriors, Fex, and Tyrant; with that, I can buy an entire squad or Raveners or an Elite Fex for that price- or 24 gaunts, or a whole brood or Warriors, or any number of other things. And, in most cases, the "trimmed" units will be just as effective- I can make my original brood of Warriors just as shooty or choppy as yours and have a second brood to boot which can fill the other role that you had yours multitasking into (and both of them doing it better, to boot) or I can make them both the same and have twice your firepower in that respect. Learning to trim unnescessary upgrades is key to having a good 'Nid army, because it's possible to go completely hog-wild with them and end up with Gaunts that cost 15 pts each.
Multi-tasking is what Warriors need to do, they are the workhorse of the Tyranid list and central to a balanced list. They offer both shooting and close-combat support, something other Tyranid units don't have (Gaunts are just bullet absorbers, Genestealers+Ravenors are pure combat, Carnifex are kinda like Wraithlords in that they're best used at range, they hit hard but slow in combat). Early stages of the game, you want their lethal ranged firepower; as you head past Turn 3, you should expect to enter close-combat.