ArnizipalSee my quote from MvS above. He was a writer for GW so any directions given to him can be considered canon.Originally Posted by LexxBomb
See my quote from MvS above. He was a writer for GW so any directions given to him can be considered canon.
I was under the impression that it was the birth of Slaanesh, not the war with the C'Tan, that resulted in the damage to the polar gates. That they got corrupted by Chaos just like a good chunk of the Eldar Webway. Which, of course, brings up an interesting point. Namely that if they were in the same universe, that'd mean that the Old Ones were active as late as about 25,000 AD. So after all these millions of years, that's where they (or at least some of them) were hiding out. So what were they up to on the Warhammer world that was so important?
Finally I found someone who could sum up my thoughts into a compact package and in perfect English, too. Too bad I can't put that into my sig.
well the way I see it the "War in Heaven" led to the downfall of the Old Ones which led to the crumbling of their empire.
Maybe your right in that it was the birth of Slannesh that detroyed the Gates and let Chaos spill into the Warhammer World, but I would postulate that the War in Heaven at least damaged the Polar Gates (which I view as being Webway Gates).
I like your point about the activity of the Old Ones and I begin to wonder what they were trying to achive on the warhammer World... maybe it was research into fighting Chaos as that would have been the Old Ones most immediate threat given that the C'tan were asleep.
@ Ultimate Life Form...
I just noticed all the grammatical mistakes I made and the double wording lol
Last edited by LexxBomb; 27-05-2009 at 12:14.
Only in Death does Duty End
I still believe both games are linked
prove me otherwise.
The official line is that they're separate. If you want to believe the backgrounds are in some way linked, feel free, but that doesn't change what's official.
we've had this debate endless times on WarSeer. Fantasy and 40K share a number of concepts, but each is a different spin on the same thing. Think Final Fantasy: the names and characters crop up in many games, but that doesn't mean the games are part of the same background.
Ultimately, you can do what you want with your personal version of the background - that's why it's a static setting and not an ongoing story. It's there for you, the gamer, to use as a base on which to tell your own stories. If you want to combine the two games, go for it; if you want to introduce new armies, or cross-pollinate from another game, feel free. But it doesn't change the fact that the Warhammer Fantasy and 40K background are currently separate, and have been for much, much longer than they were ever together.
(By the way: can anyone point me towards where in the old books it says they're one and the same? I have a fairly complete collection, but don't have the time to search through for this elusive paragraph.)
from memory only 2 games in all of the Final Fantasy (and its TV series) have had a sequal or were related. Final Fantasy is a setting not a background or universe.
both Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40,000 are not static... they both have an ongoing story
Fantasy is not hampered by an end of a timeline like 40k is.
the fact that global campaigns have added to the background and brought change to it show that it is not static.
a classic example of this taken from Fantasy is Storm of Chaos... if the gamming background was static then Archaon would still be searching the Chaos Wastes for the artifacts of the Everchosen and would not be the "Lord of the End Times"
or an example from 40k... Eldrad is dead (at least his body is and he only exists as stones) and this comes out of the Eye of Terror Campaign - heck the Dark Angels almost attacking a Black Templar ship in attempt to capture Cypher also comes out the same campaign just as Typhon getting a deamon world of his own...
you just cannot say that the two games have a static background... you could not have a global campaign if it was.
Only in Death does Duty End
I still believe both games are linked
prove me otherwise.
Re: The Great Maw: a giant tyranid?
Notice that the Storm of Chaos has quietly vanished from the background? It's something on the horizon rather than an event that's been and gone.
For the purposes of plot advancement, future narrative campaigns will have no weight. They caused too much damage to the background, and no end of hassle for all concerned; nobody was happy with the end result.
No major changes will happen in the setting. By this I don't mean that a new race will never be introduced, but if it does then it will likely be treated as though it was always there, just barely mentioned. No major revelations will happen - it's not an advancing story. Kislev will not fall, the Chaos gates will never be closed. Altdorf will never be wiped out by a passing greenskin invasion.
As for my point about Final Fantasy: several plot elements, character names and summons crop up in all the games, but there's no suggestion that they're connected. They're different iterations of the same concept, for want of a better description. This is how the Chaos gods should be interpreted. Heck, they even cropped up in the Dark Future books, but I don't see anyone claiming that they're one and the same.
I probably shouldn't quote myself, but I gave a much better explanation here. Hope it helps
but doesn't the Empire Army book talk about Valten and his body going missing after the Battle of Middenheim. Doesn't it also go about Valten recieving Ghal Maraz from Karl franz and using it in battle against Archaon... I thought it did and if this correct then Storm of Chaos has not been swept under the rug.
Only in Death does Duty End
I still believe both games are linked
prove me otherwise.
You have arguemnts pro and contra from the recent armybooks.
The High and Dark Elf armybooks make no mention of it at all. Neiter does the Vampire Counts armybook. It' s a footnote in the Orc and Goblin armybook and I believe it's mentioned in the Warriors of Chaos armybook as well. Don't know about Daemons.
Why I said "Namely that if they were in the same universe...". Yeah, officially they're not in the same universe, but it's still fun to speculate.
Look for a previous post of mine on this very thread. It'll be easy to find as it's got an attachment to the cover of Codex: Chaos, which implies that the Warhammer world is somewhere in the 40k galaxy trapped inside a warp storm. That's just one source. And official line or not, you can't very well complain when people draw those conclusions, as GW keeps bringing the idea back up. I gotta say, for a company intent on selling the line that the two universes are entirely distinct, they sure keep smacking people over the head with the idea.(By the way: can anyone point me towards where in the old books it says they're one and the same? I have a fairly complete collection, but don't have the time to search through for this elusive paragraph.)If there's anyone to take issue with, it's GW, who claims they're separate universes despite throwing Chaos Marines into Liber Chaotica, Ork spores onto the bellies of Old One starships, and turning power fists and power armor into Warhammer Fantasy magic items.
Last edited by The Emperor; 27-05-2009 at 17:09.
I'm afraid we'll have to wait for the BRB8 to see how the general background has advanced. They may have figured out a way to retcon the stuff they don't particularly care for. The Codices will take their cue from that.
Except for Chaos existing in both universes, and GW saying that the named daemon characters in fantasy are the very same daemons in 40k (plus, the liber chaotica stuff with an Empire scholar having visions of 40k chaos marines). Having said that, the Warp is an extra-dimensional plane that connects to other galaxies and may well connect to other universes.
Nevertheless, the 40k and fantasy universes are practically seperate and its safe to say that, aside from Chaos and the Old Ones, they have no interaction save for some tongue-in-cheek GW developer nonsense like the "power fist" magic item in the Albion campain (much in the same way that Fable 2 has master-chief weapons and armour).
Anyways, it can safely be said that the Great Maw isnt a tyranid organism.
And all of them are right. The Warp, being a non-physical realm of ideas and concepts, can be all of those things at once. At once it is a literal daemon kingdom where Slaaenesh's minions besiege Khorne's impregnable stronghold, or Nurgle's hordes force their way through Tzeentche's crystal labyrinthe, but at the very same time its merely a plane of roiling energy where whirlpools of energy wax and wane, swallowing parts of each other before being driven back.
If anyone is familier with the WoD book Demon: the Fallen, a fluff piece at the start of the book gives a good example of how to view - it had a demon (who had possessed the body of a preacher's son) explaining the history of the fall to said preacher. He described Creation and the war in heaven in a way that I think would appy to viewing the realms of chaos.
Essentially, Creation (in this example) was both the literal 7 days spiel, while at the same time those "7 days" took aeons as the planets formed and life evolved. Adam and Eve were both two individual people and the entirety of early life, that the war between heaven and hell started with literal swords and spears as well as words and ideas as well as emotions and ethical concepts. The demon character tried to rationalise it (to our limited view of existence) in that, during the early days, reality had many more layers to it, all simultanious and interlinked - they were all happening at the same time in the same place in different 'levels' of experience. However, as part of God's final punishment, after casting down the fallen and all that, many of those layers were stripped away and reality became more '3d', if you will.
Anyways, the original text puts the concept into better words that I have, but essentially that pre-fall vision of reality forms my vision of how the Warp, and specifically the realms of chaos, operate - they are both allegorical, metaphorical and literal all at the same time. Khorne is both an angry dog-headed, sword wielding, god of war who splits reality when he gets mad, but also a swirling whirlpool of angry-energy - at the same time.
Last edited by baphomael; 27-05-2009 at 17:54.
RSPCA - Royal Society for the Preservation of Craftworld Avatars. Put a stop to Avatar abuse. Full stop.
Is it that time of year again? Time flies.
For what it's worth, Richter Kless from Liber Chaotica only 'saw' 40K imagery because it was a way of including both 40K and Fantasy imagery in one book. At the time of LC's writing, the head of BLP wanted the books to be from WHF perspective because of a short quote in the Chaos Army Book of the time citing the 'Liber Chaotica'. Were it not for this the books would have been written from the 40K perspective as I would have preferred - probably the Ordo Malleus' primary reference book on Chaos or something like that.
So the mix in imageries in LC were simply a device to get both imageries in the books, along with a bit of a nod and a wink to the Old Guard who remembered the older 'fluff' when both imageries were still 'officially' linked. The references in LC were not intended as some sort of revelation about the 'true' connection between the two imageries. Indeed, at that time I was told categorically that the imageries weren't linked any more - at least in the sense that the Warhammer World wasn't a lost planet somewhere in the EoT or in a Warp Storm somewhere. It seemed counter-intuitive to me to say that while still have the links so clearly in the LC series, but there we go. It was a light hearted nudge and marketing thing.
My own personal preference about the two imageries is to imagine that they are linked through the Warp. They are alternate realities with Chaos being the cement between them. Rather like a Michael Moorecock Eternal Champion series where the contest between Order and Chaos is played across countless parallel universes.
In the 40K universe the galaxy with the Imperium in it is the main focus of 'Fate', if that's how you want to see it. In the Fantasy universe it is the Warhammer World that is the dominant playing field for 'Fate'. One imagery doesn't play second fiddle to the other, but you could see them as complimenting each other within a sort of 'multiverse'. I like to.
Last edited by MvS; 30-11-2009 at 10:50.
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
Updated and revised for the 6th Edition.
That is exactly the kind of thing that kills franchises. If you get the impression that the authors don't take their own work seriously, why should you, then? It's the same with the stupid Lizardmen joke names in 5th Ed. I think they realized it though, or at least that's how I want to interpret the more recent seriousness. But the constant retconning of fluff doesn't help either and is quite hard to put up with. If everything is just a cheap trick thrown in for fun and marketing reasons, it shows that the creators don't care for their creations. Oh why have the Old Ones forsaken us?
To be fair, I don't think Liber Chaotica are or were a 'flagship' for GW by any stretch of the imagination. Also, BLP wanted as much stuff from Realms of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness included in the books as possible (to save said imagery from the oblivion of history) and that meant 40K and Fantasy side by side.
So there was some genuine care for classic-but-fading imagery as well as the nod, winks and marketing. Things are rarely so black or white.
Two points there: the authors did take their work seriously and you make the imagery and the hobby what you want it to be. GW's publications are there for inspiration.If you get the impression that the authors don't take their own work seriously, why should you, then?
I don't think anyone has suggested that 'everything is just a cheap trick thrown in for marketing reasons'. But that isn't to say that marketing isn't taken into account by the games and miniatures company we are discussing.If everything is just a cheap trick thrown in for fun and marketing reasons, it shows that the creators don't care for their creations
Last edited by MvS; 30-11-2009 at 10:51.
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
Updated and revised for the 6th Edition.
*Ignores all the argument about the link between 40k and Fantasy* If you ask me what happened was the large chunk of warpstone that was the comet fused all the ogres in the area together, making a mewling god thing out of the ogres.
And if you ask me, it's a ruddy great hole in the floor made by a meteor which the Ogres worship as some kind of giant gob. And they get hungry when standing next to it, 'cos of the radiation, see.
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Mat Ward Fact #8374: The Mat Ward Supression Field (tm) is the only thing stopping Rebecca Black's singing voice from destroying us all.
Praise be to the eight-headed path
Ooh, that's an interesting theory. Very Fallout-like...
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