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Thread: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

  1. #1
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    Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    There seems to be some confusion about how many points legendary companies cost.

    While I don't want to seem arrogantly authoritative, I along with many other posters believe that the proper method of calculating the cost for a legendary company is to pay the both costs listed in the unit entry if you only take a single company.

    The reasoning is thus:

    The unit entries are all of the same form:
    X points + Y points per company
    For example, The Grey Company is:
    75 points + 40 per company
    Under the "Command" heading for legendary companies they state:
    The first company purchased is automatically the command company and has Characters included in the base cost.
    Taking again The Grey Company as our example:
    The first company purchased is the command company and has Halbarad included in the base cost.
    Some players have, in my opinion, wrongly taken the first cost listed in the unit entry to be the "base cost," so if they were to take 1 company of Theodred's Knights, they would pay only 135 points.

    I believe that is incorrect.

    The reason it is incorrect is because they have not purchased any companies. The cost for the formation is 75 points, but paying that amount gets you nothing, because the cost per company is 40 points. You do not actually purchase any companies until you pay the second cost listed. That first company purchased is the command company and comes with the characters.

    The cost is expressed as "per company," if the first (or any) company was included in the first cost (the "X") cost then the unit entry would have to say "+Y per additional company."

    Another way of looking at it is to simply do the addition that the unit entries tell you to do.

    So if you are taking 2 companies of The Grey Company you would pay:
    75 points
    +
    45 points per company

    since you have 2 companies that's 2x45 points= 90 points
    for a total of 165 points.

    By the strict reading of the unit entry, that is the proper method of calculating the cost of the unit. There is no indication that any companies are included in the first cost, and no modification of the term "per company" that would, in any way, restrict the command company.

    This alone should be sufficient and convincing evidence. That said, I shall prevent more.

    While not strictly relevant from a rules standpoint, GW has opted for the X+Y cost of Legendary Formations in the rulebook as well as online:
    3 companies of Sharku's Hunters with bows on p.16 for 165 points.
    3 companies of Ugluk's Raiders on p.16 for 205 points.
    6 companies of Erkenbrad's Riders on p.17 for 355 points.
    4 Companies of Rivendell Guard here for 385 points:
    http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...100007&start=5

    Although we all know that GW is notorious for simple adding mistakes, I refuse to believe that they consistently made the same mistake in every instance they chose to declare the points values that they were using.

    The final (and least conclusive) argument is that it would be stupid from a gameplay point of view to imagine that any companies were included in the points cost of Legendary Formations.

    Taking The Grey Company as our example again, let's imagine for a moment that the command company was included in the 75 point cost.
    For that 75 points we get:
    1 Company of troops equivalent to Rangers of Arnor, but with +1D, +C, the special rules Stalwart and Indomitable, the ability to strike at the same time as cavalry and a hero with 5 courage and 3 might.

    A single company of Rangers of Arnor, lacking all of the advantages, equipped with a regular Captain of Rangers, who lacks the advantages provided by Halbarad, would cost 80 points.

    That means that for 5 points less, the Grey Company get:
    +1D
    +1C (+2 relative to the heroes)
    Stalwart
    Indomitable
    Valour of Forgotten Arnor (strike as cavlry)
    a hero with 1 more might

    Does that seem reasonable?

    Of course not. Their cost is when accurately calculated is 115 points, which seems much more in line with their manyfold advantages.

    I just wanted to have all my arguments in one place, and hopefully stickied, so we can just link people to this when they start trying to argue that Legendary Companies should be ridiculously inexpensive.
    Last edited by Sarah S; 11-07-2009 at 18:19.

  2. #2
    Commander Nu Fenix's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I am in the camp where you pay for the amount of Companies you wish to use, and then pay the additional price for them being Legendary.

    If the first Company was built into the Legendary points cost, then they would be worded like the Regiments of Reknown in Warhammer, where you pay for extra models and a base fee for the command.

    Until this gets officially answer by GW however, I can see this being the biggest divide within the game, and both players will need to be on the same wavelength when building their armies for a battle.

  3. #3
    Librarian dtjunkie19's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I really can't believe that someone would honestly believe that any other way than what is being suggested here could be right. Even if the wording is somewhat confusing, paying less points for a better formation than its common equivalent? No. Nooooooooooooo. They are good enough already

  4. #4
    Brother Sergeant arobe's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    totally agree the first points does not include the company.

    Still good value.

    But I understand why player may have read it the other way, I did first time too.

  5. #5
    Chapter Master Odin's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Cheers for taking the time to set all that out logically Sarah S. I had thought it was the other way around, but I can't fault your reasoning. Increases the cost of my Rangers of Ithilien somewhat, but that's ok.

    Needs to be FAQd though, just to make sure everyone uses the same system.

  6. #6
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I am also in agreement!

  7. #7
    Brother Sergeant The Muster of Rohan's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Agreed also.

  8. #8
    Chapter Master backslide's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    agreed it does seem a tad unclear, half a sentence in the rule book would have made it crystal clear!

  9. #9

    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Yeah one word would have resolved this at least one way.

    ....+35 points per ADDITIONAL company.

    However, I have been told by several staffers at GW, at different stores, some doing management training or in management already, that the first points cost includes the first company.

    So, should you only wish to take one company of Osgiliath Veterans, you pay 120 points, not 155 points.

    Q

  10. #10
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I think they are wrong, and I don't think they are a reasonable authority to overrule the arguments above.

    You should probably tell them to come read this thread so they quit telling people the wrong thing!
    Last edited by Sarah S; 23-04-2009 at 01:57.

  11. #11
    Brother Sergeant The Muster of Rohan's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Quannum, rules as written (x points + y per company) says that your way is incorrect. The examples used by the guys who wrote the book (who, y'know, may have some idea of rules as intended) do it this way. Moreover, common sense says to do it this way, or you get some damned weird anomalies - see Sarah's first post.

    As an aside, having spent three years working for GW under various managers, and a further fifteen frequenting various GW stores, I can tell you that managers are decidedly not an authority for rules decisions.
    Last edited by The Muster of Rohan; 23-04-2009 at 10:29. Reason: Typo correction

  12. #12

    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by The Muster of Rohan View Post
    As an aside, having spent three years working for GW under various managers, and a further fifteen frequenting various GW stores, I can tell you that managers are decidedly not an authority for rules decisions.
    trust me, you don't have to tell me that twice! I've always thought it to be weird. I'm gonna go with Sarah's option because that way, if we find out that we are wrong, we have gained some points to play with, rather than having the shave points off.

    Q

  13. #13
    Chapter Master Whitehorn's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Minor point, but you overlooked some numbers here

    75 points
    +
    45 points per company

    since you have 2 companies that's 2x40 points= 80 points

  14. #14
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Thanks for the heads up, I changed my example halfway through.

  15. #15
    Chapter Master Max_Killfactor's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Nice sticky, exactly what I came here for.

    I agree with Sarah S and the WD batreps seem to agree with her also.
    If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.

  16. #16
    Chapter Master jaws900's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    A much as I would liek to debate this i can't really as thats what it says. But it shouldn't. You should play the 105 pts etc for the first companie to reposent the hero and other things like banner or hornblower and then add an extra 30 for every addisonal companie (Sorry about the spelling)
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  17. #17
    Brother Sergeant Aenerion's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I hopelessly only have a french rulebook and in it the legendary compagny have a cost define as is: X pts + Y pts per EXTRA company

    Furthermore the example of the rulebook you gave have been changed in the french one:

    3 companies of Sharku's Hunters with bows on p.16 for 165 points. --> 140pts in french
    3 companies of Ugluk's Raiders on p.16 for 205 points. --> 175pts in french
    6 companies of Erkenbrad's Riders on p.17 for 355 points. --> 315pts in french

    So I don't know what they did but it's a bit confusing.

  18. #18
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I agree with this method of costing for almost every legendary formation until I look at rivendell guard. If I were to take a cohort with captain and banner I would be paying 85 points for the upgrades. The rivindell guard upgrade is then 120 points, 35 points more for making the formation stalwart AND 5 points more per company.

  19. #19
    Librarian Ex-Blueshirt's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I think that the extra might point for the Cohort captain may be a typo.
    My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  20. #20
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    That etra might point for the cohort is the only reason I can see for them being rare not common, the galadhrim with shields are common so why not the high elves?

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