Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

[Ex-Blueshirt]

Because they negate a major weakness of elves by having a high defense.

[Johnny189]

Galadhrim with shields do that for 10 points less and only 1 less defence.

[Ex-Blueshirt]

This is true. Cohorts aren't a great choice, Rivendell guard even less so.

On topic: That doesn't change the pricing system for legendary formations.

[ferrumvir]

Thanks Sarah S. I find your logic spot on.

I have to say this puzzled me for a while, though I did come to the same conclusion. I also spent a fair amount of time skimming the rule book looking for the clarification.

I've printed out your thread so I don't have to explain it to others.

Thanks again.

Cheers Scott

[HRM]

I had a guy at GW tell me that the reason they priced them that way was to encourage the use of named characters/units, rather than nameless ones, to keep in the spirit of Tolkiens world. I can't remember his exact wording, but it was basically to say that if two models for Erkenbrands Riders cost 155 points, and two models of Riders Of Rohan with Erkenbrand stuck in cost 105 points, why would you ever take Erkenbrands Riders? I remember he said "We WANT you to use the big guys; we don't want War Of The Ring to turn into Warhammer."

Fuzzy logic, but an interesting perspective.

[Edonil]

And one they went overboard with when it comes to the Court of the Dead King.

[Gondor fan!!!]

They are probably common because they can't carry shields. I agree with Sarah about legendary formations. Can the council of wizardry use their magic to bring back casualties.

[Paraelix]

I honestly had not taken the point values this way >_> I had assumed the first price covered the initial company.

That said, I do believe one of the unit entries *actually* seems to indicate they pay for the first company- Abrakhan Guard does not state "The first copmany purchased..." it just says "The guard includes x and x in its base cost."

[ForgottenLore]

A lot of people assume that the first company is included in the base cost, but that isn't what the rules actually say.

Once school is out I may try and find the time to do an in depth breakdown of the various legendary formations and their point costs.

[Paraelix]

It makes sense to me now, but I tend to just skim through and assume that rules are similar to Warhammer F/40k... So when I see a points cost, I assume that it buys me something usable without recourse to spending more points :P

[- V -]

Your arguments are very valid, can't really find anything to counter it other than "it isn't like that in fantasy and 40k". Seems like another thing quite essential to agree on, even before making army lists.

Just checked up on it, and my army builder (version 3.x) calculate it the same way, so the first company in the grey company cost 115 points, and then 40 points pr. additional company after the first.

[Reinholt]

Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.

[skuller]

Nice explained ...I was using the wrong system hahaha

[ForgottenLore]

Well, I said I was going to do a breakdown of all the costs for these formations and here it is.

While I think the debate about this has died down by now and most people have accepted that the 1st company is not included in the first cost I never saw anyone actually analyze all of the formations and break down the costs, so I decided to do that.

All the split cost formations are essentially regular troops being led by a hero (or more than one). What I have done here is compared the formation's leader to a standard captain of that army then I subtracted the cost of a basic captain and any unit upgrades that come with the formation from the base cost to see how many points that hero's improvements cost.

Hope that made sense.

Oh, and this is very, very long. After all this detailed analysis I will have some conclusions at the bottom.

Gondor Formations

Rangers of Ithilien.
Madril gets +1 Mt over a captain and the formation gets Damrod with 1 Mt and the bodyguard rule.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 15 pts.

Denethor's Guard
Denethor has the Broken Mind ability (which may or may not be good) and the formation gets Beregond, which adds +2 Mt to the formation.
If the 1st company is NOT included in the base cost these improvements cost 15 pts.
If the 1st company IS included, the formations is actually 20 points cheaper than citadel guard with a generic captain and the same upgrade figures would be. In other words you would get +2 Mt and save 20 points.

Osgiliath Vetrans
Cirion gets +1C, +1Mt and allows formation to auto pass terror tests
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 35 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.
Also, the troops in this formation are essentially Citidel guards with -1C but shields and bows for free.

Court of the Dead King (FAQed to hav ethe correct cost for the companies)
King of the Dead has the Shadowstride ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this ability costs 60 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability is free.

Dunedain of Arnor
Arathorn gets +1C, +1Mt and Take Aim ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements provide a 10 pt rebate.
Also, for +5 pts per company the formation has significant improvements over the generic ranger formations.

Grey Company
Halbarad gets +1C, +1Mt, compared to a captain and lets formation strike as Cavalry
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the less effective generic captain.

Royal Guard of Arnor
King Arvedui gats +2C and the formation gets Malbeth the Seer with +1Mt and a 6+ Save for the formation
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.

Wardens of the Keys
Hurin gets +1 Mt compared to a generic captain
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements 35 points cheaper than this infantry type would be with just a generic captain.

Blackroot Vale Archers
Duinhir has -1C compared to a regular captain.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, he is 20 points more expensive than a captain.
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost then he is 5 points cheaper than a captain.
Also, compared to rangers of gondor, BRV Archers gain ambusher and longbows but have -1F for 5 points cheaper than the rangers

Rohan Formations

The Kings Guard
Gamling has -1F and -1C compared to a captain of rohan, and Hama adds +1 Mt and Bodyguard
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these changes cost 50 points
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these changes cost only 15 pts.

Erkenbrand's Riders
Erkenbrand has +1Mt and his formation auto passes terror checks
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements save the formation 10 points over a generic captain.

Theodred's Knights
Theodred is identical to a captain except he has a 4+ chance to regain any Mt he spends
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this improvement cost 50 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability costs only 5 pts.

Grimbold's Helmingas
Grimbold is identical to a Captain of Rohan in both cost and abilities. If the 1st company was included in the first cost you would be getting a captain for 20 points
Compared to Oathsworn Militia his troops cost 10 points more and gain +1S and +1C

Elfhelm's Riders
Elfhelm is identical to a Captain of Riders
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost he costs 5 pts more than a captain
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost he saves the formation 35 points
For +10 points per company the troops do have better shooting and Master Pathfinders compared to Riders of Rohan

Elven Formations

Rivendel Guard
Erestor is identical to a High Elf Cohort Commander
Without the first company he costs 40 pts more than the commander, with the 1st company he is 25 points cheaper
The troops cost 5 points/company more than a cohort, but gain stalwart

Gildor's Household
Gildor has the same stats as a high elf captain and is a lvl 2 spellcaster
If the 1st company is not included in the base cost his spellcasting costs 75 points, If it is his spellcasting costs 35 points.
His troops are similar to wood elf archers with +1F and ambusher for 5 points less.

Haldir's Elves
Haldir has +1Mt compared to a galadhrim captain and the take aim ability.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements are still a 5 pt savings over the generic version
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 55 points less than the generic version would.

Guardians of Caras Galdhon
Rumil has +1Mt over a Galadhrim captain
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs him 25 points
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this Mt increase is 45 points cheaper than a generic captain.
The troops of this formation get +1S and Stalwart compared to Guards of the Galadhrim Court for free.

Dwarven Formations

Murin's Guard
Murin gets +1Mt over a captain and the Lock Shields ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this is 15 points cheaper than the generic captain
The troops gain Master Pathfinder for free

Drar's Hunters
Drar has +1Mt and Take Aim
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 5 pts.
The companies are also cheaper than dwarf rangers and gain throwing weapons and ambushers

Durin's Guard
Durin has +1F, +2R, and +1 Mt and Inspiring Hero and Terror over a captain. The formation also gains Mardin with another point of Mt and the Bodyguard ability.
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 100 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 50 pts.
The Troops also gain Goblin and Orcbane and Pathfinder(Mountains) compared to generic Khazad Guard for free

Forgotten Kingdoms
These don't have regular captains to compare them too, but I put them in for completeness.

Wardens of the Carrock
Grimbeorn has +2R and adds D6 bonus attacks on the charge over what captains usually have. If the 1st company is NOT included he costs 60 points, 10 points more than a captain. If the 1st company IS included he costs 15 points total, 35 points cheaper than a regular captain.

Woses Warband
Ghan buri Ghan looks to be a straight up +1Mt over normal captains and that point of Mt is either 25 pts or free depending on whether the 1st company is counted.

Mordor Formations

Shagrat's Tower Guard
Shagrat gets +1F, +1R, +1Mt and his Brutal Discipline ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free

Gorbags Morgul Rats
Gorbag has +1Mt and Move It You Slugs
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 10 pts

Grishnakh's Trackers
Grishnakh gets +1Mt and Take Aim
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 5 pts cheaper than the generic formation

Isengard Formations

Ugluks Raiders
Ugluk has +1Mt, Furious Charge, and Forward You Maggots
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 65 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 35 pts
His formation is Uruk-hai scouts with free shields

Vrashku's Talons
Vrashku has +1Mt and Take Aim
This costs 45 points without the 1st company or only 10 points if it is included.

Sharku's Hunters
Sharku has +1C, +1Mt and Cause terror when they charge
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free
His formation costs 5 pts more than regular Warg riders and comes with +1C and expert riders instead of skilled riders

Mauhur's Maurauders
Mauhur gets +1Mt and the fantastic Man-Flesh ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 50 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 20 pts
His troops are Uruk-Hai scouts with free shields and upgraded Pathfinder for free

Fallen Realms Formations

Abrakhan Guard
The Golden King has +1Mt and the Golden Hoard ability
If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 15 pts
If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the generic haradrim chieftan
The troops of this formation are 5 points more expensive than haradrim and gain nothing for it that I can see

I wanted to do this because I spotted a patter in the arguments about this subject. It seemed that all the people who thought the 1st company WAS included in the base cost used Rohan formations as examples, so I thought maybe there was a problem with the costing of the Rohan ones.

Sure enough, the Rohan split cost formations are pretty sucky compared to all the others, with the king's guard being probably the worst, having you pay more points for a hero who is WORSE than a generic captain.

The overall winner is probably Haldir's Elves though, who come with Haldir, a banner and a hornblower but cost less than a captain, banner and hornblower no matter how you cost it and you get free Mt and Take Aim

Assuming people can understand what I'm saying here (it is 5am right now, who knows how coherent I am being) this should make it pretty clear how these companies should be bought, and that Rohan players shouldn't buy any at all.

Finally, just for those who may be interested, the number of split cost formations broken down by army

Good - 23 formations
Gondor - 9
Rohan - 5
Elves - 4
Dwarves - 3
FK - 2

Evil - 8 formations
Mordor - 3
Isengard - 4
Misty Mountains - 0
FR - 1
Angmar - 0

[The Eye That Never Sleeps]

On GW website, in the LOTR section, go to WOTR articles and then gaming. Click the Battle Report (Aug 09), then, on the left, click 3. Clad In Mithril. The army list for this 1500pt Dwarf army includes the Legendary Formation of Drar's Hunters. Other formations in this army have a pts total in bold type and under this is a breakdown of that total (not in bold).
Drar's Hunters - 95 and 2 Companies - 70 are both bold, meaning that this 2 company formation costs a total of 165 pts.
Add this 165 to all the other pts for the Dwarf army and you have a total of 1490 pts (10 short of 1500).
If the cost of the command company, inc. Drar, was only 95 pts, then Mr Troke would be 40 pts short of 1500, meaning that he would obviously make up the difference with another company (maybe a 3rd company of Drar's Rangers, bringing his army total to 1495).
If you now click 6. Turn 2: Splintered Shields and look to the top right of the picture, you can see Drar in his 2 company strong formation, NOT 3.
I agree that the GW people could and should take a little bit more care with the wording in the Rulebook. Surely it would have made more sense to word Legendary Formations as follows;
Drar's Hunters 130pts + 35pts per extra company (and all other Legendary Formations likewise).
If anyone thinks I'm wrong, I suggest you keep following the above until the penny drops. After all, I'm sure the GW staff wouldn't be playing with the wrong rules.
I hope this little contribution helps clear up any further confusion.

[Peregrin]

Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.

I pointed this out at our gaming club and it pretty much stopped all discussion (and caused some people to have to recalculate their armies).