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Thread: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

  1. #21
    Librarian Ex-Blueshirt's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Because they negate a major weakness of elves by having a high defense.
    Last edited by Ex-Blueshirt; 04-08-2009 at 16:44.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Galadhrim with shields do that for 10 points less and only 1 less defence.

  3. #23
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    This is true. Cohorts aren't a great choice, Rivendell guard even less so.

    On topic: That doesn't change the pricing system for legendary formations.
    My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  4. #24
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Thanks Sarah S. I find your logic spot on.

    I have to say this puzzled me for a while, though I did come to the same conclusion. I also spent a fair amount of time skimming the rule book looking for the clarification.

    I've printed out your thread so I don't have to explain it to others.

    Thanks again.

    Cheers Scott
    Last edited by ferrumvir; 09-12-2009 at 21:49. Reason: gramatical errors

  5. #25
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I had a guy at GW tell me that the reason they priced them that way was to encourage the use of named characters/units, rather than nameless ones, to keep in the spirit of Tolkiens world. I can't remember his exact wording, but it was basically to say that if two models for Erkenbrands Riders cost 155 points, and two models of Riders Of Rohan with Erkenbrand stuck in cost 105 points, why would you ever take Erkenbrands Riders? I remember he said "We WANT you to use the big guys; we don't want War Of The Ring to turn into Warhammer."

    Fuzzy logic, but an interesting perspective.

  6. #26
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    And one they went overboard with when it comes to the Court of the Dead King.
    The OBJECT of the game is to win. The POINT of the game is to have FUN! Never confuse the two.- Zoolander
    Amen.

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  7. #27
    Brother Sergeant Gondor fan!!!'s Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    They are probably common because they can't carry shields. I agree with Sarah about legendary formations. Can the council of wizardry use their magic to bring back casualties.

  8. #28
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    I honestly had not taken the point values this way >_> I had assumed the first price covered the initial company.

    That said, I do believe one of the unit entries *actually* seems to indicate they pay for the first company- Abrakhan Guard does not state "The first copmany purchased..." it just says "The guard includes x and x in its base cost."

  9. #29
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    A lot of people assume that the first company is included in the base cost, but that isn't what the rules actually say.

    Once school is out I may try and find the time to do an in depth breakdown of the various legendary formations and their point costs.
    Once upon a midnight dreary...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanska of Kompletely Kroot, May 12 2009, 12:42 PM
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  10. #30
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    It makes sense to me now, but I tend to just skim through and assume that rules are similar to Warhammer F/40k... So when I see a points cost, I assume that it buys me something usable without recourse to spending more points :P

  11. #31
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Your arguments are very valid, can't really find anything to counter it other than "it isn't like that in fantasy and 40k". Seems like another thing quite essential to agree on, even before making army lists.

    Just checked up on it, and my army builder (version 3.x) calculate it the same way, so the first company in the grey company cost 115 points, and then 40 points pr. additional company after the first.
    Last edited by - V -; 22-04-2010 at 13:33.

  12. #32
    Chapter Master Reinholt's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

    It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Nice explained ...I was using the wrong system hahaha
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  14. #34
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate (very long analysis)

    Well, I said I was going to do a breakdown of all the costs for these formations and here it is.

    While I think the debate about this has died down by now and most people have accepted that the 1st company is not included in the first cost I never saw anyone actually analyze all of the formations and break down the costs, so I decided to do that.

    All the split cost formations are essentially regular troops being led by a hero (or more than one). What I have done here is compared the formation's leader to a standard captain of that army then I subtracted the cost of a basic captain and any unit upgrades that come with the formation from the base cost to see how many points that hero's improvements cost.

    Hope that made sense.

    Oh, and this is very, very long. After all this detailed analysis I will have some conclusions at the bottom.

    Gondor Formations

    Rangers of Ithilien.
    Madril gets +1 Mt over a captain and the formation gets Damrod with 1 Mt and the bodyguard rule.
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 15 pts.

    Denethor's Guard
    Denethor has the Broken Mind ability (which may or may not be good) and the formation gets Beregond, which adds +2 Mt to the formation.
    If the 1st company is NOT included in the base cost these improvements cost 15 pts.
    If the 1st company IS included, the formations is actually 20 points cheaper than citadel guard with a generic captain and the same upgrade figures would be. In other words you would get +2 Mt and save 20 points.

    Osgiliath Vetrans
    Cirion gets +1C, +1Mt and allows formation to auto pass terror tests
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 35 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.
    Also, the troops in this formation are essentially Citidel guards with -1C but shields and bows for free.

    Court of the Dead King (FAQed to hav ethe correct cost for the companies)
    King of the Dead has the Shadowstride ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this ability costs 60 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability is free.

    Dunedain of Arnor
    Arathorn gets +1C, +1Mt and Take Aim ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements provide a 10 pt rebate.
    Also, for +5 pts per company the formation has significant improvements over the generic ranger formations.

    Grey Company
    Halbarad gets +1C, +1Mt, compared to a captain and lets formation strike as Cavalry
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the less effective generic captain.

    Royal Guard of Arnor
    King Arvedui gats +2C and the formation gets Malbeth the Seer with +1Mt and a 6+ Save for the formation
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free.

    Wardens of the Keys
    Hurin gets +1 Mt compared to a generic captain
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements 35 points cheaper than this infantry type would be with just a generic captain.

    Blackroot Vale Archers
    Duinhir has -1C compared to a regular captain.
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, he is 20 points more expensive than a captain.
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost then he is 5 points cheaper than a captain.
    Also, compared to rangers of gondor, BRV Archers gain ambusher and longbows but have -1F for 5 points cheaper than the rangers

    Rohan Formations

    The Kings Guard
    Gamling has -1F and -1C compared to a captain of rohan, and Hama adds +1 Mt and Bodyguard
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these changes cost 50 points
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these changes cost only 15 pts.

    Erkenbrand's Riders
    Erkenbrand has +1Mt and his formation auto passes terror checks
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 30 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements save the formation 10 points over a generic captain.

    Theodred's Knights
    Theodred is identical to a captain except he has a 4+ chance to regain any Mt he spends
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this improvement cost 50 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this ability costs only 5 pts.

    Grimbold's Helmingas
    Grimbold is identical to a Captain of Rohan in both cost and abilities. If the 1st company was included in the first cost you would be getting a captain for 20 points
    Compared to Oathsworn Militia his troops cost 10 points more and gain +1S and +1C

    Elfhelm's Riders
    Elfhelm is identical to a Captain of Riders
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost he costs 5 pts more than a captain
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost he saves the formation 35 points
    For +10 points per company the troops do have better shooting and Master Pathfinders compared to Riders of Rohan

    Elven Formations

    Rivendel Guard
    Erestor is identical to a High Elf Cohort Commander
    Without the first company he costs 40 pts more than the commander, with the 1st company he is 25 points cheaper
    The troops cost 5 points/company more than a cohort, but gain stalwart

    Gildor's Household
    Gildor has the same stats as a high elf captain and is a lvl 2 spellcaster
    If the 1st company is not included in the base cost his spellcasting costs 75 points, If it is his spellcasting costs 35 points.
    His troops are similar to wood elf archers with +1F and ambusher for 5 points less.

    Haldir's Elves
    Haldir has +1Mt compared to a galadhrim captain and the take aim ability.
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements are still a 5 pt savings over the generic version
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 55 points less than the generic version would.

    Guardians of Caras Galdhon
    Rumil has +1Mt over a Galadhrim captain
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs him 25 points
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this Mt increase is 45 points cheaper than a generic captain.
    The troops of this formation get +1S and Stalwart compared to Guards of the Galadhrim Court for free.

    Dwarven Formations

    Murin's Guard
    Murin gets +1Mt over a captain and the Lock Shields ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, this costs 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost this is 15 points cheaper than the generic captain
    The troops gain Master Pathfinder for free

    Drar's Hunters
    Drar has +1Mt and Take Aim
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 45 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 5 pts.
    The companies are also cheaper than dwarf rangers and gain throwing weapons and ambushers

    Durin's Guard
    Durin has +1F, +2R, and +1 Mt and Inspiring Hero and Terror over a captain. The formation also gains Mardin with another point of Mt and the Bodyguard ability.
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 100 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost only 50 pts.
    The Troops also gain Goblin and Orcbane and Pathfinder(Mountains) compared to generic Khazad Guard for free

    Forgotten Kingdoms
    These don't have regular captains to compare them too, but I put them in for completeness.

    Wardens of the Carrock
    Grimbeorn has +2R and adds D6 bonus attacks on the charge over what captains usually have. If the 1st company is NOT included he costs 60 points, 10 points more than a captain. If the 1st company IS included he costs 15 points total, 35 points cheaper than a regular captain.

    Woses Warband
    Ghan buri Ghan looks to be a straight up +1Mt over normal captains and that point of Mt is either 25 pts or free depending on whether the 1st company is counted.

    Mordor Formations

    Shagrat's Tower Guard
    Shagrat gets +1F, +1R, +1Mt and his Brutal Discipline ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free

    Gorbags Morgul Rats
    Gorbag has +1Mt and Move It You Slugs
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 10 pts

    Grishnakh's Trackers
    Grishnakh gets +1Mt and Take Aim
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 5 pts cheaper than the generic formation

    Isengard Formations

    Ugluks Raiders
    Ugluk has +1Mt, Furious Charge, and Forward You Maggots
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 65 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 35 pts
    His formation is Uruk-hai scouts with free shields

    Vrashku's Talons
    Vrashku has +1Mt and Take Aim
    This costs 45 points without the 1st company or only 10 points if it is included.

    Sharku's Hunters
    Sharku has +1C, +1Mt and Cause terror when they charge
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 25 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are free
    His formation costs 5 pts more than regular Warg riders and comes with +1C and expert riders instead of skilled riders

    Mauhur's Maurauders
    Mauhur gets +1Mt and the fantastic Man-Flesh ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 50 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements cost 20 pts
    His troops are Uruk-Hai scouts with free shields and upgraded Pathfinder for free

    Fallen Realms Formations

    Abrakhan Guard
    The Golden King has +1Mt and the Golden Hoard ability
    If 1st company is NOT included in base cost, these improvements cost 15 pts
    If the 1st company IS included in the base cost these improvements are 15 points cheaper than the generic haradrim chieftan
    The troops of this formation are 5 points more expensive than haradrim and gain nothing for it that I can see

    I wanted to do this because I spotted a patter in the arguments about this subject. It seemed that all the people who thought the 1st company WAS included in the base cost used Rohan formations as examples, so I thought maybe there was a problem with the costing of the Rohan ones.

    Sure enough, the Rohan split cost formations are pretty sucky compared to all the others, with the king's guard being probably the worst, having you pay more points for a hero who is WORSE than a generic captain.

    The overall winner is probably Haldir's Elves though, who come with Haldir, a banner and a hornblower but cost less than a captain, banner and hornblower no matter how you cost it and you get free Mt and Take Aim

    Assuming people can understand what I'm saying here (it is 5am right now, who knows how coherent I am being) this should make it pretty clear how these companies should be bought, and that Rohan players shouldn't buy any at all.

    Finally, just for those who may be interested, the number of split cost formations broken down by army

    Good - 23 formations
    Gondor - 9
    Rohan - 5
    Elves - 4
    Dwarves - 3
    FK - 2

    Evil - 8 formations
    Mordor - 3
    Isengard - 4
    Misty Mountains - 0
    FR - 1
    Angmar - 0
    Once upon a midnight dreary...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanska of Kompletely Kroot, May 12 2009, 12:42 PM
    May your enemies taste as sweet as your victories...

  15. #35

    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    On GW website, in the LOTR section, go to WOTR articles and then gaming. Click the Battle Report (Aug 09), then, on the left, click 3. Clad In Mithril. The army list for this 1500pt Dwarf army includes the Legendary Formation of Drar's Hunters. Other formations in this army have a pts total in bold type and under this is a breakdown of that total (not in bold).
    Drar's Hunters - 95 and 2 Companies - 70 are both bold, meaning that this 2 company formation costs a total of 165 pts.
    Add this 165 to all the other pts for the Dwarf army and you have a total of 1490 pts (10 short of 1500).
    If the cost of the command company, inc. Drar, was only 95 pts, then Mr Troke would be 40 pts short of 1500, meaning that he would obviously make up the difference with another company (maybe a 3rd company of Drar's Rangers, bringing his army total to 1495).
    If you now click 6. Turn 2: Splintered Shields and look to the top right of the picture, you can see Drar in his 2 company strong formation, NOT 3.
    I agree that the GW people could and should take a little bit more care with the wording in the Rulebook. Surely it would have made more sense to word Legendary Formations as follows;
    Drar's Hunters 130pts + 35pts per extra company (and all other Legendary Formations likewise).
    If anyone thinks I'm wrong, I suggest you keep following the above until the penny drops. After all, I'm sure the GW staff wouldn't be playing with the wrong rules.
    I hope this little contribution helps clear up any further confusion.

  16. #36
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinholt View Post
    Page 16 and 17 of the rulebook have army lists with legendary formations.

    It is clear from those (as they have both Sharku's Hunters with Bows and Erkenbrand's Riders) that the initial value for a legendary formation does NOT include the cost of the first company.
    I pointed this out at our gaming club and it pretty much stopped all discussion (and caused some people to have to recalculate their armies).

  17. #37
    Chapter Master MOMUS's Avatar
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    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Is there somewhere to download the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doi View Post
    Knowing MOMUS I would guess something dirty and/or depraved.
    Or conning you into making a giant-sized Slann.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Inquisitor View Post
    That was pretty epic, MOMUS.

  18. #38

    Re: Legendary Companies Sticky Candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by MOMUS View Post
    Is there somewhere to download the rules?
    not legally so no

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