The Silmarillion

[Rirekon]

The problem I had with the Similarion was keeping all the names straight in my head, it reads more like a history book than a story - which is probably the point as far as I can tell.

It is worth it though, it gives you a much greater insight into the Lord of the Rings setting

[Thranduil]

The problem I had with the Similarion was keeping all the names straight in my head, it reads more like a history book than a story - which is probably the point as far as I can tell.

It is worth it though, it gives you a much greater insight into the Lord of the Rings setting

That's why there's family tree diagrams and an index in the back.

If you're going to read Tolkien's posthumous publications, I recommend starting with the Sil. Unfinished tales is good for further developments and curiosities of the second and third age, but skip the Narn (pretty much the first half of the book) and pick up a copy of CoH, as it's a much more complete rendition of the tragedy of Turin.

If you're into fantasy with an epic edge to it, Tolkien's posthumous publications - especially Sil - are the way to go, and you'll get more out of them after multiple read-throughs because they're so detailed complex.

[Phoenix Blaze]

It's not long before all those names become simple to remember. Although, I do have problems remembering all the sons of the elven princes and what they did at which time.

[Avatar of the Eldar]

The problem I had with the Similarion was keeping all the names straight in my head, it reads more like a history book than a story - which is probably the point as far as I can tell.

It is worth it though, it gives you a much greater insight into the Lord of the Rings setting

Agreed. As another poster wrote it's more of a chronicle than a novel.

The first time I tried to read it I found it impenetrable. But that was right after reading LotR and I was in the ninth/tenth grade.

Years later I read it and loved it. So, try it and if you cannot get into it but love Tolkein's works, come back to it again some day.

[McMullet]

I would say the Silmarillion is an excellent read. It is harder going if you're expecting a storybook like LotR, but it is really, as others have said, an historical chronicle. If you like history books or mythologies it will appeal, if you don't it won't.

Arguments to the effect of "It's boring!" "No it's not!" are pretty pointless...

It is true that Morgoth was wounded in the battle against Fingolfin, but Fingolfin was no ordinary elf, but one of the mightiest elves of all time. However valiant Fingolfin's battle was, it was a doomed attempt since Melkor was a Vala and no living thing could ever hope to kill a Vala. It is not within their capabilities.

On account of the giant spider, Ungoliant was not a spider, but an unknown spirit in the guise of a spider. The giant spiders like Shelob are smaller and less powerful descendants of Ungoliant. Remember that Ungoliant drank the sap of the Trees of Valinor and the power of Feanor's greatest treasure, so it was no ordinary being that Melkor was afraid of. As opposed to the other Vala, Melkor often displays fear (as does Sauron in later ages). Melkor acted more and more cowardly and the fight with Fingolfin was the last time he ever left his throne. During the sixth and last battle, he did not participate but threw himself upon the mercy of the Valar.

/Fredmans

One thing I really like in Tolkien's writing, something that seems rarely picked-up on, is his notion of the "binding up" of power. The Ainur are shown to be able to gain great power, such as the rise of Sauron from Morgoth's lieutenant to the great power he is in the 3rd age, but in many cases they have to invest much of their power in more tangible things.

Melkor, as he entered the World, would have been incredibly individually powerful. However, in order to control and dominate so much territory and so many people, his power had to be invested in his fortresses and armies. His own power was used to knit together the stones of Angband and to control his hordes of Orcs and Dragons and what-have-you, such that he himself was far less capable when it came to fighting Fingolfin. Against any other Vala, even Fingolfin wouldn't have stood a chance, because their power would not be locked away in the same fashion.

The same thing happens with Sauron; much of his power is "bound up" in the One Ring, power that continued to sustain him and his works as long as the ring existed. In a sense his power was amplified when stored in this way, but of course, it was also vulnerable. That's why he was effectively destroyed and Barad-Dur collapsed when the ring was destroyed.

[Iracundus]

Morgoth and Sauron's weakening over time was also a deliberate part of Tolkien's theme of the exhaustive and sterile nature of Evil. Morgoth was originally the most powerful and mulit-talented of the Ainur. However in trying to dominate Arda he passed a great portion of his power into the physical being of the world. Tolkien's various behind the scenes writings dwells on this. Sauron bound his power into a particular configuration of gold. Morgoth bound a portion of his power into the idea and material of Gold itself (among various other things), which Tolkien suggests is the reason why gold excites evil feelings of greed in mortals. This infusion of Arda with his power and evil intent is also given as the reason why evil doesn't die out, or why Morgoth isn't permanently disabled like Sauron was. The whole of Arda is Morgoth's Ring (to borrow one of Tolkien's phrases).

Once life comes along, Morgoth began to spend ever more of his resources controlling and dominating his lesser servants, in effect spreading himself thin. Tolkien discusses how Morgoth had "fallen" from his earlier demiurgic heights to liking being a petty tyrant king. Previously when he first took material form to battle the Valar, he was a mobile volcanic mountain towering above the clouds. That was before he had spread his power out and was reduced to being "merely" the dark armored giant that fought Fingolfin. His dissipation of his power is also why he was no longer able to daunt the other Valar anymore with the force of his will, or shed his physical form, or heal his injuries. Morgoth the core entity became an ever shrinking fragment of the original vastness of power that was Melkor before he turned his thoughts to Evil.

[Thranduil]

I just gotta say, it's refreshing to know that there's other people out there who read and grasp Tolkien's masterworks... if I try and discuss this stuff with anyone I know in my day to day life, I get humoured glances and quick changes of subject (even among my 40k group!).

Anyway, excellent posts on the subject of evil magical power in Tolkien's Arda, but I think something is being overlooked:

Yes Morgoth and Sauron are dissipating in power and garner little attention from the Vala (aside from the War of Wrath and their sending of the Istari in the Third Age) but the point is that it is no longer their war. It is the Elves and Men who are up against Morgoth and his minions, and despite his being "spread thin", he is still a seemingly indomitable force. What a nightmare realm Beleriand must have been, having orcs partolling it, ceaselessly searching for kingdoms such as Nargothrond, Doriath, Gondolin, and the smaller settlements of Elves and Men, or the spawn of Ungoliant haunting Ered Gorgoroth and Taur-Nu-Fuin... Let's not forget that the Elves fought several great battles against Morgoth, and lay siege to Angband for many years, but could not defeat him. Morgoth's power was diminishing, yes, but it did not make him any less mighty to the Children of Illuvatar, otherwise they would have been able to win back the Silmarils and cast him out of Middle Earth without Earendil and Elwing appealing to the Valar.

Although, an argument could be made for the fact that certain members of the race of Men are capable of withstanding and battling Morgoth: Luthien was able to entrance the dark Vala while Beren cut a Silmaril from his crown, and Turin managed to slay Glaurung, effectively crippling a major military asset in Morgoth's arsenal. Problem is, both of these acts came at great cost, as Beren and Luthien ended up dieing (Beren also lost his hand to Carcharoth), and the resulting feud over the captured Silmaril brings about the fall of Doriath, whereas Turin commits suicide after learning from the dieing Dragon that he had commited incest with his sister Nienor. So yes, Morgoth can be contested in his dimished state, and yes, he can be hurt by mortal actions, but he cannot be defeated by them, and the result is always death and tragedy. Although, this does have a sort of honour in itself, as Turin states with a plee to the Elves of Nargothrond:

"There is but one Vala with whom we have to do, and that is Morgoth; and if in the end we cannot overcome him, at least we can hurt him and hinder him. For victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only from what follows from it."

[Phoenix Blaze]

I've always seen the victories of Turin and Beren coming from the Gifts of Men and their ability to change fate. The Elves woudl never *ever* be able to defeatr Morgoth as it is doomed that they won't as he is/was one of the Valar, and Elves are always ensnared by doom, unless some outside influence from Men is involved.

I think it's mentioned in Morgoth's Ring, that, evil within Middle Earth curse and damn people which can effectively be drawn back to Morgoth. When looking at Morgoth's Curse on the House of Hurin, there was no magic or no ability needed there, just the will of a dark tyrant was enough to make the curse come true.

The evil of Morgoth and his diminishing over the years is an excellent part of the Silmarillion, as is his ability not to make, but only to pervert. And finally, I especially like that his greatest crime of all was not the marring of Arda (twice), but the corrupted of the Elves into Orcs. This also gives a slight insight into the psychology of the Orcs and why they are so cruel and full of hatred.

[Thranduil]

Change fate? Toward the end of the Narn I Hin Hurin (or CoH in its more complete form) Morgoth actively decides the fate of Turin by sending Glaurung to Nargothrond. The fact that Glaurung transfixes Turin with the Dragon Spell and sends him to Dor-Lomin instead of rescuing Finduilas shows that Morgoth actively plays a part in deciding the fate certain individuals. This is especially pertinant, as Gwindor's dieing words to Turin are "Haste you to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to you: she alone stands between you and your doom. If you fail her, it shall not fail to find you." Though Turin's pride, wrath, and innability to listen to counsel play a big part in fulfilling the curse, it ends up coming true because Morgoth makes it come true - it is his curse on Hurin and his kin, afterall.

That Turin manages to slay Glaurung in the end is owed to the idea that it is the one redeeming action he undertakes for all the harm he causes, and says a lot about the the race of Man's ability to excel despite overwhelming odds. Men cannot change fate, and indeed, being trapped between fate and free will is a running theme with most of Tolkien's human characters. Nevertheless, Men are capable of incredible acts of heroism that have enormous impact on Middle Earth, and yes, usually end up helping out the interests of the Elves in most cases. (or Hobbits, or Dwarves, etc.)

Not to troll, just my opinion... or rather procrastination amid doing work on CoH for a thesis.

[Phoenix Blaze]

But it is the Gift of Men that they are not bound to Arda and therefore not wholly bound to it's fate. I'm not saying they can just go and choose to defy their Doom, but their actions can go against that which was foretold. I interpretet is as the actions of Man are not as easily governed or reacted to as those of the Elves. The actions of individual men have far surpassed many great Elves (the stealing of a Silmaril, the slaying of Glaurung, single handedly!).

Elves are fairer in both mind and body than Men, but Men are capable of so much more in the long run.

I see your points, but I think a lot of that is to do with the overwhelming power of Morgoth, even in his weakened state.

I'd love to use a 1st Age Tolkien book for any sort of study! I wish I used the Silmarillion for my main English hand in back in High School.

[Thranduil]

I'd love to use a 1st Age Tolkien book for any sort of study! I wish I used the Silmarillion for my main English hand in back in High School.

Go to University, study English.

We've gotten a bit off topic...

[Phoenix Blaze]

I study design engineer

I say study, I mean currently failing (no joke there, sadly).

[badgeraddict]

The Silmarillion is boring? WTF No! Its a great read!

[Dogui]

The Silmarillion is a wargamer´s wet dream. I have notes for about 30 or so scenarios to create with the SBG and now with WotR just from that text. If you add some stuff from the Unfinished Tales, you probably got more than you can handle in a very long time.

[SirSnipes]

guess i should tell you that the film compny that did lotr, now owns the hobbit,and the silmarillion and have planned the hobbit for release next year and the necromancer story the year after

[Lord Anathir]

great story. It has the answers for everything... any question you have in lotr about why things happen the way they do can be answered in the silarmillion.

Silmarillion = High Elves = Epic.

[Phoenix Blaze]

Silmarillion = Deep Elves = Epic.

The High Elves do feth all in the movie!

[Fredmans]

guess i should tell you that the film compny that did lotr, now owns the hobbit,and the silmarillion and have planned the hobbit for release next year and the necromancer story the year after

Are you sure about the Silmarillion, since it is usually confirmed that Christopher Tolkien is strongly opposed to selling the rights to Silmarillion as he is the compiler/editor and has some say in this.

/Fredmans

[Brandir]

The only film rights available are for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. There will be no film version of The Silmarillion; this book and all other subsequent publications remains firmly under the control of the Tolkien Estate.

The Estate, which is essentially run by Christopher Tolkien, is of the opinion that the works of JRR Tolkien are particularly unsuited for films:

"My own position is that The Lord Of The Rings is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form. ... The suggestions that have been made that I 'disapprove' of the films, vent to the extent of thinking ill of those with whom I may differ, are wholly without foundation."

[Condottiere]

You'd have to transform Tolkien's works as into scripts, and since a great deal of dialogue would be missing, the filmmakers would have to become creative, which is why these literary pieces won't be filmed.