Building a better Warhammer

[Idle Scholar]

Blerg, try it now.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Cool!

Mind if I post that to the external site?

(At some point you can PM me with your right name if you like and I'll add you as a 'developer' in the credit. )

Today I played my first game in months. It was a rather quick affair, using the same Orc list as my last game and an elf list I concocted in 10 minutes or so. My opponent was the lovely Mrs. CvT and we managed to fight a 1500 point game in about an hour and a half - pretty amazing if you think about it. We started at 5 and were done by 6:30. If we'd been playing WHFB with the same number of models, the game would have run until 10.

A couple of takeaways:

1. Man, I need to update some of the older lists on the site. They have not kept up with the rules revisions. Sorry about that. I am beginning to see why the game designer doesn't also do army lists. The lists themselves become a chore.

2. I'm considering changing the rules to allow wizards to take as many Arcana items as they want, up to the maximum allowed in the character description. If someone wants to max out a wizard lord by casting three spells per turn at +2 (staff and master), and use two schools AND have a scroll, why not? They are paying big points and some people just really like magic.

Other than that, the rules held up very well, which is nice. Of course, I was playing from memory, but the one thing I wasn't sure about was in fact spelled out when I turned on the computer and looked it. (I'm sure many of you are wondering how the game designer can not have a printed copy of his own rules. Oh, I've got copies, but they are all old, you see. And then I periodically throw them all away. I'll have to fire up the color printer and make a new set.

Oh, I almost forgot: The elves triumphed, wiping out the orcs entirely. This was partly due to two factors:

1. I tend to use rather simple tactics when playing demos, so as to highlight the fundamentals of the game. It is bad salesmanship to crush someone by using advanced tactics on their first game.

2. Mrs. CvT is a skilled commander with many victories to her credit. Indeed, she is in fact one of only two people who can say they beat my 3rd ed. 40k Space Marines and she did so exactly once - and unlike my other opponent, she did not get hideously insane luck. To be fair, she was wearing a low-cut blouse at the time though.

Anyhow, she said she liked it and wanted to play again, and her only serious complaint was the fact that wizards couldn't easily be maxed out, even if the player wanted to spend the points on it. Hence my proposed change above.

I recognize that she represents a considerable class of player that really enjoys the magic element of the game, and while we both despise Herohammer, she feels magic could have more of a role without dominating the game. I'm inclined to agree.

As a practical matter, I think we can all agree that wearing multiple suits of armor or carrying an arsenal of artifact-level weaponry is silly, and the rules are correct to prohibit duplicates in these areas.

However, a wizard with a scroll, a staff and legendary spell book is merely well-equipped rather than "cheaty."

Let me know what you all think.

[Idle Scholar]

I'm glad you like it. It's not idiot proof but it does save a bit of time. Feel free to put it up on the main site, it'll make all that time I spent on it seem more worth while

And now for a giant edit, on magic no less:

A fantasy wargame wouldn't be a fantasy wargame without magic, but the Warhammer approach has kind of sucked.

I think that the problems with magic in WH are threefold.

1st Lack of gameplay in the magic phase

Beyond a very basic bluff/gamble mechanic and a collection of one-use items there really isn’t much gameplay in either 6th, 7th or 8th edition, and what gameplay there is is either unfair or random.

2nd Reliance on a single dice roll

And then, generally speaking it all comes down to a single roll of the dice. Ok so do moral checks but they are a difficult test to fail and can be modified by all sorts of things that are either under the control of one or other player or are a result of many separate dice rolls.

3rd Disconnection from the rest of the game

To cap it all off, aside from range, LOS and character hunting the rest of the game has no effect on the magic phase. You get to move first so you can minimise the chances of being out of range or LOS and of course it can’t be too easy to character hunt otherwise you end up with a massive advantage to the player to get the first strike in and it diminishes the role of heroes in a heroic fantasy wargame.

Now conqueror sidesteps some of these issues. There is no gameplay so it can’t be unfair and the spells aren’t particularly powerful so you don’t get the feeling of losing the game to a single roll off. Also magic before movement lets your opponent out manoeuvre your mage.
But as you say there’s a lot of people who like magic, and whole armies in WH are reliant on the stuff. So the question becomes can you provided a rule set that caters to the historical/fantasy lite group and the magical apocalypse crowd and can support magic armies.

My first thought was to use cards (yeah I’ve just heard about Maluifax). Each player is dealt a hand of cards at the start of the game (say 4 + 1 per 1000 pts) and each magic phase a further two are turned over. You get to pick up or swap up to two cards per phase up to your starting hand size (before the general cards are turned over) and then you cast and dispel by playing hands up to poker hands. It’s simple. It’s quick. It’s scaleable. But it suffers from point 3 again, in that it has no connection to the rest of the game.

So how about applying some more positional modifiers to your spell casting? –1 if you moved last turn. -1 for long range. +1 for a flank spell. +2 for a rear spell?

It’s pretty basic but the more you can integrate magic with movement the more powerful and interesting you can make it.

For example imagine a spell that is cast by having your mage at the centre of a geometric shape made out of units at each point. The range and power of the spell can be a function of the distance between each unit. So it’s easy to set up a small short ranged spell but the doomsday version requires several turns of manoeuvre and counter manoeuvre to pull off.

Again just an example and something simpler might just be a bonus granted by the type and condition of the unit the mage is embedded in but the point is there is an opportunity here to really add something to the Warhammer family of games.

[Infinitium]

If you're content with emulating warhammer the winds of magic system somewhat hampers that though, albeit I do kinda like getting power units by accomplishing certain criteria (could be positioning your mages, controlling laeylines, controlling terrain, killing enemies, killing friendlies - whatever, sounds sound).

Another way which I'm starting to warm to (especially as I've got more hots for low fantasy than it's high counterpart) is introducing magic as rituals, essentially meaning that spells are cast over a number of turns - the more powerful the spell the longer amount of turns it takes to finish, and the number and individual skill of spellcasters involved determines the magnitude of effect. There are variations on this such as having the spells effects take place over several turns etc, but the underlying premise is simple enough. This essentially gives the opponent opportunity to respond to the spell cast without necessarily emplying wizards himself and introduces a second resource in spellcasting (tempo) in addition to whatever else is being used.

[Idle Scholar]

To work with that, perhaps if the casting wizard becomes disordered or broken the spell casting is ended?

For me I'd like to see a magic system where you can see how effective or how much chance a spell has of going off by the positions of things on the board. Add to that ways of countering spells that don't rely on rolling high on a dispel and counters to those counters all based primarily on movement and I think you'd have a really solid system.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Magic is a tricky issue, no question.

I will add a fourth concern: That it overshadows the battle entirely. That was what happened in 5th ed.

Some armies were there solely to facilitate the casting to brutal, game-winning spells (Undead, Elves, some Chaos). There was an old joke that Warhammer has become a "collectible miniatures card game."

The real crux of this issue is how much of the game should be controlled by magic and (therefore) how much design space it should take up?

Do the rules for magic take more room than the rules for a core mechanic like movement or melee combat? If so, the game designer has arguably lost the plot and should really be playing Magic: The Gathering. That's the way I see it.

Here are my responses to your categories.

1. There was more gameplay earlier on, when I had a "wizards' duel" concept. It was clunky and distracting. I got rid of it.

2. Magic by its very nature is unpredictable. There has to be some random element to using it, just as combat, morale, pursuit, etc. are random. If not dice, what? Also keep in mind that adding cards makes my design a heck of a lot more expensive to print and sell.

3. I think that magic is connected in Conqueror because so many of the spells are about modifying units' abilities. Resistance and Inspiration in particular are the kind of spells that force a player to think ahead a little and decide where the focal point of the coming game turn should be. In that sense, the wizard is deeply involved in the game strategy. In WHFB, wizards are mostly heavy artillery in pointy hats.

I can think of two ways to enhance magic with only minor rules changes.

The first I mentioned in my last post: Lifting the limit on Arcane items. The more I think about it, the more I like it. A master wizard with some key enhancements can cast three spells at +2, giving his army an excellent chance of getting spells off.

The second is to fiddle with their cost a little. Maybe drop the upgrade to master to 50 percent as opposed to the current 80. Maybe. I still need to think on that one.

A final option would be to simply increase/alter some of the schools so that there are more spells to choose from. This need not follow the GW model of two dozen duplicative schools, but rather would follow my old concept of eight schools of magic, each based on an element (earth, air, water and fire as primary with shadow, metal, ice and light as secondary).

No sooner do I write that, then I come back to my concern that magic is beginning to take over the design space of the game. Conqueror is a WARGAME, not a magic game, and I want to keep it that way.

[Idle Scholar]

That's why I would advocate re-using some of the existing design space (movement, shooting modifiers, moral etc) to integrate magic better and make it less arbitrary.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

The core problem with magic seeming like an add-on is that it is an add-on.

The basic rules cover the physics of the world as we know them. What magic does is break these rules.

Short of requiring every army to take a spell-user (which some fantasy games do), magic has to be optional, and if it is optional, it is really annoying to see it constantly stuck in the main rules.

Thinking my previous post over, I've decided on a couple of changes:

1.* I’m simplifying ranges.* From now on spells will either be touch/melee or 24”.* This makes it a lot easier to remember (it's either 24" or nothing) and it also gives the enhancement spells some additional flexibility.

2.* I’m going to create a new class of “super-spell,” one for each school.* I got the idea from watching Mrs. CvT play Fable 3 last night.

Basically the idea is that wizards can do a “power up” for a turn and then unleash a truly game-changing spell.

The idea is that he is summoning his power, building up energy and as he does so the winds begin to pick up and he starts to glow - just like all the heroes do in the console games.

To cast a super spell, the wizard declares he is starting at the beginning of his magic phase.* He may not cast any other spells that turn. He then spends the intervening turn building up his power.

He cannot move or attack in any way. If he is forced to move, the spell is broken up. If he is wounded, he can either abandon the spell or he runs the risk of dying once it is unleashed as the power courses through him.

At the start of his next magic phase, the spell goes off automatically. There is no die roll, and no chance of countermagic.

Here are the spells and their effects:

Regeneration (Life):* The spell creates a healing aura around the target unit, allowing its members to rapidly heal otherwise crippling injuries.* For the next game turn, all wounds will be healed on a 3+ even if armor/ward saves fail.* Note that if the unit is able to heal all the wounds from magic and/or shooting, no morale check needs to be made.

Invincibility (Light):* The target unit’s weapons glow with magical fire and their wielders are filled with warlike spirit.* For the next turn, all melee combat attacks will hit on a 2+.* Saves and AP are unaffected.

Maelstrom (Elemental):* The target unit is assailed by a wild storm of fire and lightning.* It takes 3d6 hits.

Shadow Swarm (Death):* The target unit is overrun by shrieking wraiths seeking to devour the souls of its members.* The unit takes 2d6 hits that completely bypass armor.* Instead, models may make a save based on their Morale:* A saves on a 3+, B on a 4+, C on a 5+, D and E on a 6+.* Each hit will instantly kill the target model regardless of wounds remaining.* *Ward saves and saves against magic may be taken in addition.

I think that this allows people the chance to have the truly game-changing unit-killing magic that they thirst for while at the same time giving the non-magic types fair warning that a doom spell is about to be unleashed. Since spells only reach 24", once that wizards starts to concentrate, you can either make an all-out attempt to kill him or run like hell to get away.

Talking it over with a friend, he pointed out that while only Masters should do superspells (I need a better term - "ritual" maybe?), any wizard should be able to do that "spend a turn in concentration and then the spell automatically goes off" thing. I think he made a good point. A lowly wizard without any magic items really does not have that much of a chance of getting a spell off, and if he does, it can still be countered. This way, he is guaranteed to get three spells off per game if he times things right.

It really rewards deliberate planning and long-term strategy, which I like.

Thoughts?

[Idle Scholar]

Agreed, those changes look good. Maybe add the wizard or unit becoming shaken to the spell disruption. It would need play testing as it may make it too easy to disrupt the incipient spell.

What do you think about the move/flank/rear/long range modifiers on casting? The downside seems to me to be a bit more complexity in the rules but you gain a reason to move the wizard around and a defence for a unit about to be struck.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

The problem with facings and magic is that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think wizards are generally immobile, and that their placement is part of the strategy behind using them.

That's why I'm going to let ordinary wizards get the super spell effect on a normal spell if they also spend a turn casting it.

Basically it becomes part of your game plan: When you set up, you do so knowing that on turn 1, your wizard will begin his ritual and that on turn 2 it will automatically go off. So if you want to do an irresistible charge by your knights, you would plan on casting "inspiration" for the extra hit.

Similarly you might plan on boosting the shooting of a unit on turn 2 because at that point the enemy will be in range. Stuff like that really appeals to me.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

After a couple of days of further thought (and a considerable quantity of German beer), I've decided to call the "super spells" rituals.

They require much more elaborate preparation, including a conjuration circle. Players can represent this during the game by making a small conjuration base and putting the caster's model on or next to it.

Regular spells can also be cast using this method, which guarantees they will work and forestalls the use of countermagic.

I'll try to get the rules updated this week.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Just in time for Christmas, I've put a new version of rules up with the Rituals added.

Yes, I promised this weeks ago, but long-time readers of this thread should know that I have zero personal time (I haven't gamed in months and my painting table is a sad scene of neglect).

So enjoy the rules and tell me how the games go!

[Idle Scholar]

Being at home for Christmas we knocked up some rules for Byzantine and Samurai armies so I could teach the rules to my brothers. Our first game resulted in victory for the Samurai and a few questions:

The first lot were about light horse, as both armies were heavy users of skirmishing missile cavalry. As the rules stand they follow the rules for skirmishers. i.e. -1 to hit, loose formation and ignoring movement penalties. The first thing that struck us is should they be -1 to hit. I'm not sure as they would be easier to hit, but they would be in a faster moving looser formation. The second question concerned woods. Should they be able to ignore movement penalties for travelling through woods? We said not as woods were historically anti cavalry. On the topic of woods and other difficult terrain I notice it's 1/2 movement and no marching. In the interests of gameplay we often changed it to 1/2 movement but still able to march in ordinary Warhammer and I think that would be in the best interests in conqueror as otherwise woods become essentially impassable for non skirmishing units. Going back to light horse I can’t help noticing that they’re missing the ability to fire and flee. This was an important tactic for thousands of years in the real world and it would be nice to see it in conqueror. Essentially I’d have it that light horse can rally in the opponents rally phase. Finally when performing a stand and shoot reaction when does it occur? We played immediately, but it could easily be at close range.

We also had a few issues with list building. First was that there are no rules for pavise. Does there need to be, again I don’t know. It feels more accurate to include rules for them but it also feels like unnecessary complications. If there were to be rules for them I’d use SV but only at range, and costing 5 instead of 10 per pip.

Now an actually flaw that came up was multi attack infantry with spears. Basically on the off chance that you want to create a unit with more than one attack and equip them with spears you get the extra attacks from the back rank for free. As a multi attack unit is usually half decent that can be a major boost. My solution is to convolute the MS and the AT characteristic for spears, so instead of just being 10 x MS it’s 10 x MS x AT. This results in no change for most units but if you want to create an elite unit they pay proportionally to the number of extra attacks they will receive for having spears.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

I always like hearing how the games go. Can you share the lists with us?

To address your points in no particular order:

For the record, there is no “stand and shoot” option. There are only three responses to a charge: Stand, flee and (for cavalry) countercharge.

If a missile unit has been charged and opts to stand, then it may shoot at the chargers during the subsequent shooting phase. The range is short, because the chargers will be in base-to-base contact. Since the missile unit has been charged, its shooting will be at -1 (being charged is rather stressful).

Horse archers do not have a “fire and flee” option because they do not need one. If horse arches are charged by heavier cavalry, they will usually flee and usually get away. During the next turn they will tend to rally and then they may carry on as normal.

As you point out, this causes them to lose a turn, but that is on purpose. When a unit flees from pursuit, rallying is not automatic. A full-strength unit with good leadership will usually rally with no problem, but there is a chance that they will go farther afield than planned. That is part of the risk of having units run away.

I am aware of the historical accounts of clever horse archers that danced just out of range and when attacked would turn tail after unleashing a flurry of arrows only to come back again later. Conqueror definitely permits this. The key is that you can’t do it with just one unit.

The idea is that while one unit is fleeing, another is moving up to harass. This constant movement and cycling of different units is likely one of the reasons Western European chroniclers always assumed they were vastly outnumbered by the Parthians/Magyars/Mongols/Saracens. Subsequent research showed that they weren’t: Cavalry armies tend to be rather small, actually. The thing was they always were coming, going and moving, and it made it seem that their supply of troops was endless.

What horse archers excel at is swinging around to the flank and rear, and here they can hardly ever be charged since they can use their mobility to dance out of their enemy’s charge arc. Two flanking units of horse archers can effectively immobilize a mostly infantry force. That’s what happened to Crassus, Marc Antony and the rest.

That is also why they use skirmisher rules and benefit from the -1 to hit modifier. Keep in mind that at Conqueror’s scale, shooting is not against a point target, but rather against an area. That is, the archers are firing volleys at the mass of the enemy, not picking out individual soldiers.

Skirmishers confound this style of shooting because their formations are less dense, meaning more shots will hit empty space – either because people dodge out of the way, or because the shooter simply failed to line up a target.

If you don’t allow mounted skirmishers this benefit, they quickly get mowed down by archers on foot. I know, because that was what happened during initial playtesting.

Horse archers are tricky to use, no question, and if I gave them a “fire and flee” ability, it would basically be cheating. The tactic of setting up the opportunity to fire and then flee is up to the player, not the game designer.

As it stands, you can do just that: Move up your archers out of the enemy’s charge arc and then fire a volley. The enemy turns and approaches. You fire again. The enemy charges. You flee.

Remember: Conqueror has two shooting phases per turn, so if you get a fire and flee option, you get to pound them for three rounds and then – if I gave them an automatic rally – you would get to keep pounding them. Horse archers would be invincible.

Historically they were tough, but not invincible. I believe Conqueror gives you the tools to duplicate the achievements of those cavalry marauders, but you have to work for it.

Now, as for terrain, play a game with the rules you suggest and let me know what happens.

I'm open to revising the rules there slightly, perhaps creating a "difficult/very difficult" scale where the forest basically screens movement (light cover) but does not prevent march moves and then a thicker undergrowth where movement is slow and marching simply doesn't work.

As for the points, yes, using the AT as a multiplier would work as well.

Oh, and Happy New Year!

[Idle Scholar]

Ok we've played another very interesting game of Byzantines vs Samurai. I've started compiling a battle report so I'll post that with the lists we used later. In the meantime a number of other points came up during play.

The first is just a clarification. When do units get to rally? Do both sides get to use both rally phases or can you only rally in your own phase? If you can only rally in your own phase what do fleeing troops do in your move phase? (assuming they broke and fled some time before your phase).

Do movement penalties apply to shooting by the non-phasing player from movement in the prior phase?

Next up are some observations

Shooting at units through gaps. The problem is the targeting of units mostly hidden by other units. Now there is the existing proviso that no more guys can die than can be seen but if the targeted unit is heavy cavalry or artillery then that doesn't really help. I'm not sure what to suggest except 'be reasonable'.

Failed charges. I've noticed that you're now allowed to pre-measure, so technically there shouldn't be any failed charges. Personally if the charger measured it wrong or some particular configuration of units meant the charge could not connect I'd just pretend that a charge was never declared by that unit.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Ok we've played another very interesting game of Byzantines vs Samurai. I've started compiling a battle report so I'll post that with the lists we used later. In the meantime a number of other points came up during play.

The first is just a clarification. When do units get to rally? Do both sides get to use both rally phases or can you only rally in your own phase? If you can only rally in your own phase what do fleeing troops do in your move phase? (assuming they broke and fled some time before your phase).

You rally during your own rally phase. Routed units just sit there. (See 6.1 on page 23). They move only if they are charged, in which case they will run away.

Do movement penalties apply to shooting by the non-phasing player from movement in the prior phase?

No.

Next up are some observations

Shooting at units through gaps. The problem is the targeting of units mostly hidden by other units. Now there is the existing proviso that no more guys can die than can be seen but if the targeted unit is heavy cavalry or artillery then that doesn't really help. I'm not sure what to suggest except 'be reasonable'.

Realistically, that is what armies would do. Remember that skirmishers have no gaps between them, though. The whole frontage is considered screened.

Failed charges. I've noticed that you're now allowed to pre-measure, so technically there shouldn't be any failed charges. Personally if the charger measured it wrong or some particular configuration of units meant the charge could not connect I'd just pretend that a charge was never declared by that unit.

Yes, failed charges don't happen much. The only reason we have that in the rules is that free measurement doesn't allow you to do detailed wiggling and measuring, so if it is a close guess and you guess wrong (I'm thinking of a tight wheel in close quarters with other units), then the charge fails.

No one should ever "fail" a straight-ahead charge in Conqueror. Either the target unit runs away or the chargers impact.

[yabbadabba]

No one should ever "fail" a straight-ahead charge in Conqueror. Either the target unit runs away or the chargers impact.

Sorry, not been around this for a while. I was wondering why you have gone for this approach? There is evidence of failed charges in historical combats, with charging units still moving to contact but were often described "blown". Could this be an option, as charging shouldn't be automatic, even though combat should be if the commitment is there?

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Sorry, not been around this for a while. I was wondering why you have gone for this approach? There is evidence of failed charges in historical combats, with charging units still moving to contact but were often described "blown". Could this be an option, as charging shouldn't be automatic, even though combat should be if the commitment is there?

"Blown" units are primarily cavalry (at least, that's the only context I've ever heard) and the equivalent in Conqueror would be a cavalry unit that is charged and fails to countercharge.

You will have units that wish to reach the enemy but can't - either because the enemy is too far away or because they ran away.

I am not up on the latest version of WHFB, but there were technically no failed charges there, either - only measurement failure. If you can estimate measurement accurately, you will never have a failed charge unless the enemy runs away as a reaction.

What I did with Conqueror is remove the somewhat arbitrary requirement that one of the skills players need is the eye of an experience carpenter. I found the guessing slowed the game down and that some people were so bad at it as to be at a permanent disadvantage.

You do touch on a larger question of command and control and should units that have been ordered to charge always do so. It's an interesting discussion, but for Conqueror the answer is "no." It is a beer-and-pretzels miniatures game, not an exactingly realistic simulation. When I want to feel like a historical general, I dust off my Brigade Series board games - which contain rules for written orders and how to determine if the subordinate commanders accept them.

[Idle Scholar]

Army Lists 1500 pts

Skaven (my own list)

Warlord on Warlitter with Heavy Armour, Pistol and Shield
Chieftan with Great Weapon and Heavy Armour
Warlock Engineer
Master Moulder with Great Weapon

30 Skaven Slaves
30 Skaven Slaves

30 Clanrats with Spears
30 Clanrats with Spears

5 Gutter Runners

5 Jezzails

6 Rat Ogres with 4 Packmasters

1 Warp Lightning Cannon

Elves (Commissar von Toussaint’s Armies of the Elves)

1 Prince with Heavy Armour and Banner of +1 to Moral Checks
1 Archmage

20 Spearmen
10 Archers
20 Swordmasters

5 Silverhelms
5 Reaver light Cavalry

1 Bolt Thrower

Deployment

The High Elf player decided to deploy in a classic defensive format to make the most of their firepower, with the forested flank protected by the Reavers and the Silverhelms deployed in reserve.

The Skaven meanwhile deployed in a close formation with slaves acting as missile screen and flank guards, while the Gutter Runners contesting the forested flank and the Chieftains Clan Rats were held in reserve.

Game Turn 1

The Skaven took the first turn and surged forwards. Magic and the Jezzails were out of range but the cannon successfully took a rank off the archers on the hill. Return fire from the Elves saw the Bolt Thrower pepper the Rat Ogres and the archers begin to thin the front unit of slaves. In the High Elf turn the Reavers moved forwards to fire at the Rat Ogres and the Silverhelms began a flank manoeuvre. Both artillery pieces were reloading and the archers claimed a few more slaves. Unfortunately for the Reavers their light bows caused only a single wound on the Rat Ogres, and their movement had brought them into range of the waiting Jezzails. A volley of fire returned a wound on the Reavers who promptly turned and fled (just prior to this the fateful words; ‘anything but a double one’ might have been uttered).

Game Turn 2

The bulk of the Skaven continued their move towards the waiting elves and the cannon missed. Return fire saw even more slaves cut down but with the help of the generals presence held firm. The Archmage then began the ritual to give his attached unit regeneration and the Silverhelms moved into charge position. Once again the war machines were reloading and the Elven archers cut down some more slaves. Far from the prince, the Reavers failed to rally and fled the battle.

Game Turn 3

In preparation for the impending cavalry charge the Warlock enchanted the slaves with +1 t hit (which in retrospect should have gone on a decent unit as opposed to chaff). The forward line of slaves then moved into charge distance of the elven line while the Warlords Clan Rats moved into position on the hill. On the right flank the slaves wheeled to accept the charge of the Silverhelms and the Chieftains Clan Rats moved up behind to ‘support’ the slaves. The Jezzails unleashed a volley on the Silverhelms to no effect and the cannon misfired and took a wound (I’ve elected to give some of the Skaven machinery an unreliable rule, where if you roll a 1 to hit you roll again and a subsequent roll of 4+ causes the weapon to hit itself). The Bolt Thrower took a rank off the Clan Rats on the hill and the Archers killed some more slaves but again all moral tests were passed.

The Archmage finished his ritual and the army charged. Both the Spears and the Swordmasters charged the slaves to their fore while the Silverhelms thundered into the slaves on the flank. Even with magic not a single Silverhelm was pulled from his saddle and the slaves were broken and cut down. But the pursuit took the cavalry into the waiting Clan Rats behind with their set spears. The slaves fighting the elven infantry were more successful slaying several Spearmen and Swordmasters and putting a wound on the Archmage before they too were broken and run down. The pursuit moves took the Spearmen into the Rat Ogres and the Swordmasters into the Clan Rats on the hill.

Game Turn 4

The Gutter Runners rear charge the spearmen but nothing else moves. On the left flank every Rat Ogre is slain along with a third of the elven spearmen. The Gutter Runners break and flee but the surviving Packmasters hold. In the centre the 3+ regeneration spell protects the Swordmasters but the +1 to hit conferred by the hill allowed the inferior Clan Rats to score enough kills to hold when it came to the break test. On the right flank the Silverhelms were reduced to a single figure but also held.
Surprisingly the Gutter Runners rally.

In the elven turn the Packmasters and the Silverhelms are wiped out and bereft of magical protection the sheer weight of numbers and the hill grind the Swordmasters down to five or six models.

Game Turn 5

The Swordmasters are finally wiped out, but badly depleted the Warlords unit elects to flee the subsequent flank charge from the spearmen. At this point we call the game for the Skaven. As the Elves only have about ten spearmen and a Prince to fight an almost untouched Clan Rat spear regiment.

In retrospect more cautious charging by the Elves may have helped them win but the bad luck of losing their light horse to a single Jezzail volley and the ‘favourable’ Skaven moral test rolls probably made more of a difference.

We did come up with some rules questions during the game as well.

1) Do you take a panic test from a friend fleeing from a charge within 6”
2) Do you take a panic test before an accidental charge, a) in the moving phase, b) as a result of melee combat
3) When you win combat by annihilating the opposition in the 2nd or subsequent round of combat can you reform or pivot at all?
4) If you charge and break an enemy who flees say 6” and you pursue 8” do you stop at 6”. What if that extra 2” would take you into contact with another enemy unit?

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Cool! I agree with you on the skaven weapons being unreliable. This is something that should apply to all "crazy/oddball" weapons. Indeed, I may incorporate that as one of the special rules.

I also agree that the elf strategy was flawed. Elves really have two options: Counterpunch or all-maneuver.

The counterpunch is where you wait for the enemy to fully engage and then use a striking force to hit them on the flank or rear. Obviously one of your cavalry units failed you, but I've had good success with sending silver helms to a far corner of the board to obtain that rear flank. Skirmish cavalry are even better at this. They key is to keep them out of the fight until you need them.

The striking force concept is similar to the WHFB MSU strategy, where you basically abandon a static base of maneuver and go entirely mobile. No line infantry or artillery, just skirmishers and cavalry.

Now to answer your questions:

1) Do you take a panic test from a friend fleeing from a charge within 6”
2) Do you take a panic test before an accidental charge, a) in the moving phase, b) as a result of melee combat
3) When you win combat by annihilating the opposition in the 2nd or subsequent round of combat can you reform or pivot at all?
4) If you charge and break an enemy who flees say 6” and you pursue 8” do you stop at 6”. What if that extra 2” would take you into contact with another enemy unit?

1. No. The presence of fleeing troops has no effect on morale, it is only if they are broken in combat.

2. I'm not sure why you would take a morale check before an accidental charge. Do you mean an overrun?

3. No. The victorious unit is regrouping and finishing off the stragglers.

4. Section 5.5 Retreat and Pursuit spells this out. "Pursuit is conducted in a straight line, directly after the fleeing troops. Should this lead into an enemy unit, the pursuers are considered to have charged. No charge reaction (spears and pikes setting, cavalry countercharging) is possible due to the sudden nature of the assault."

If the routed unit flees 6" and the pursuers go 8", move them the full 8", even if it leads them to impact on another unit (which cannot react, as noted above).

This leads me to the think the elves got the raw deal, since you mention that the cavalry broke through the slaves and hit clan rats with set spears. The only way the spears could have been set is if the slaves voluntarily routed (i.e. fled) before impact. In this case, cavalry may not countercharge, but spears and pikes may set (this is in section 3.7).

This "go straight ahead" is a key part of whether to pursue. If your cavalry is looking at a situation where it is likely to win on the charge and will then impact like a bug on a windshield against a powerful infantry unit, you may not want to charge or, at least may want to rethink pursuit.

Remember, pursuit is fairly predictable. If an enemy unit is 8" being the one you are going to charge, cavalry WILL impact on it, since they pursue base move plus d6 inches.

One option would be to charge, rout the enemy unit and then flee when you are charged. You lose a turn with your cavalry, but should easily avoid the enemy and elite cavalry should rally without any trouble (especially if you took the Horn of Courage for just this kind of trick ).

Good stuff. Keep it coming! My gaming table is out of commission and my kids' sports have me run ragged, but I do try to check in from time to time.