Is Beastman Raiders an "ok" list to use?

[dragonlancr]

Never played Mord, but think it's awesome. (conceptually).

I also love the lore and idea of making the terrain. I found a PDF file on the web for some beastman raiders:

www.madponies.net/pub/Beastman.pdf

One, is this an official or unofficial list? I don't want to play something that is massively broken or overpowered, I just LOVE beastmen. Love to paint, model, play, read about them. lol.


Any info on this topic would be most helpful.

Thank you

[holmcross]

I'm not sure where that version of the beastmen list comes from, but here is the PDF official BM warband:

http://www.mordheimer.com/warbands/o...l/beastmen.htm

This is the official version. As far as balance goes, they seem like a pretty tough warband but I wouldn't call them broken.

[Catferret]

Go to the GW site and download Empire in Flames from the Mordheim Resources section. It includes the official Beastman Raiders rules.

Note that it is the same version as Holmcross linked, but is in a nice downloadable format.

[dread lord]

i use
http://www.mordheimer.com/index.htm

it has a nice menu showing what is offical and what is not also there faq is pretty good

I am also currently playing beastmen and they seem fine to me, a good solid warband. Its strength is a high T score and that most of the heros have a S of 4. The lack off shooting is deavastating agenst certain warbands and tactics so that is kind of the major balancing factor.

[Lord 0]

dragonlancr, that pdf you linked is the old list and has been replaced by the new one found in the Empire in Flames expansion.

The main difference between the new list and the old is that the new list adds Centigors as a hero choice and chaos hounds as a henchman choice. It also replaces Massive Strength with Shaggy hide, but in some versions they remember to change the name, but not the description of the skill. The correct description is on the website linked by holmcross.

Edit: I got bored so I pulled out the warband from the EiF expansion, added the Chaos Magic at the back and tidied up a few bits and pieces (font changes, scaling issues, etc.). I have been meaning to do this for a friend of mine that plays them so this was a good reminder. Hope the pdf is handy to you.

[holmcross]

One thing to keep in mind is that Beastmen have no access to Acedemic skills. If you're just using the skill tables found in the normal rulebook then it's not too much of a drawback; if you're using the added skills from town cryer, this can really hurt you (you'll miss out on hunch and tactatian).

[mrtn]

Thanks for that Lord 0, that's more handy than to find the right page in EiF all the times.

I have an experienced beastmen warband and they're very nice to play with. You can get some fun stat increases as well, I have ungors with 2A and S4.

[Lord 0]

Making some heroes snipers with Shooting and Speed helps a little too, if your group allows that.

[Blue Orphen]

Beastmen are a VERY powerful CC warband, but lack any kind of shooting to speak of...which is how it should be.

Warbands should have a weakness, right?

In my honest opinion, Minotaurs are one of if not *the* BEST "big guy", at least among the official GW warbands. Starting WS4, the ability to use weapons and armour, and a regular experience progression (barring "Lad's Got Talent!") more than offset the S4 T4.

While I typically try to avoid using the "big guy" from warbands, I almost always use the Minotaur, often from the start!

[Lord 0]

You are right, all warbands should have a weakness and the Beastmen weakness is lack of shooting. However, having one - perhaps two - models that can shoot hardly plugs that weakness. I find that in practice all it really does is give them a *chance* (if not a very big one) on those occasions where shooting is mandatory.

Similarly, allowing a TLGT hero to take academic in warbands that otherwise have no access to Academic skills is acceptable in my circle also.

I will agree, the Minotaur is a very good Big Guy, but I would have to give first place to the Ostlander ogre. Once he becomes a hero he can get some awesome stats and skills, whereas the Minotaur can only get skills if he rolls TLGT.

[Blue Orphen]

You are right, all warbands should have a weakness and the Beastmen weakness is lack of shooting. However, having one - perhaps two - models that can shoot hardly plugs that weakness. I find that in practice all it really does is give them a *chance* (if not a very big one) on those occasions where shooting is mandatory.

Similarly, allowing a TLGT hero to take academic in warbands that otherwise have no access to Academic skills is acceptable in my circle also.

Oh, yeah, that's true. If a Hench gets Ladded and chooses Shooting as a Skill Table, they have the ability to get full access to ranged weapons. I personally wouldn't do that, since I've seen how quickly Beastmen can steamroll over other warbands in CC...since I play in a casual group of friends, I like to give them a fighting chance

I will agree, the Minotaur is a very good Big Guy, but I would have to give first place to the Ostlander ogre. Once he becomes a hero he can get some awesome stats and skills, whereas the Minotaur can only get skills if he rolls TLGT.

Minotaurs can't get Ladded, so they don't get any skills.

You're right that the Ostlander Ogre can be really nasty, I hadn't thought of him getting Ladded...no one in my group has ever used Ostlanders!

[Askil the Undecided]

I rather wondered if the list in EiF or TC 29 was the official one as the TC one was released just after the EiF articles finished and has a single difference on the beastman skills.

[Catferret]

Blue Orphen: Minotaurs can get skills as listed under there unit entry. They must take a skill instead of become Ladded if they roll 10+.

Askil: Empire in Flames (full version) is the official one. It was released after Town Cryer version in a full book with the relevant changes to the Beastman Warband.

[Lord 0]

since I play in a casual group of friends, I like to give them a fighting chance

Indeed, and that is exactly why we let beastmen get a sniper or two - to give them a fighting chance if the scenario happens to need a ranged attacker. A warband that has *no* shooting at all is sometimes in a much worse position than a warband that only weak shooting.

This is particularly true for scenarios that are 'get the objective and then get the hell out of Dodge' type thing.

[Askil the Undecided]

Actually it appears I lied about the skills that was a change from the original list. I refer of course to the change of the skill Shaggy Hide which went from being something to to with the hide being shaggy, to something about the benefits of enormous size and strength (note: nothing about hide or any shagginess thereof.)

The other difference is the maximum stats the TC article correctly states that Bestigors are Gors and thus use their maximum stats the EiF book however seems to be under the impression they are something utterly separate and need to have lower maximum movement.

EiF seems to be under the impression when your boss likes you and gives you a bit of fancy gear you will spontaneously change species and will never get any faster on your feet.

Suffice to say I'll be using the TC 29 version as it has a few minor rules differences all of which make slightly more sense and is virtually indentical in every particular but these.

[Lezta]

99% sure you're actually supposed to get both Massive Strength AND Shaggy Hide skills. Mordheimer is just wrong there.

[Askil the Undecided]

Mordheimer I wasn't on Mordheimer?

I was looking at the PDFs of Eif and TC 29. both of which have:

SHAGGY HIDE
The bestial hero is titanic in size and may use a double handed weapon in one hand.

This of course makes no sense.

[Lezta]

No it doesn't - and should be (and is) FAQed to say "The Beastman’s massively shaggy hide acts as armor, deflecting sword strokes and protecting him from harm. The model gains a 6+ Armor Save that can be combined with other armor as normal."

However, the FAQ doesn't discount Massive Strength either. Otherwise what would be the point in this - (also from Mordheimer)

" Q: Skill Massive Strength. A Beastman Hero is titanic in size and may use a double-handed weapon in one hand. Now, read literally, the means ONLY Double-Handed Weapons (+2 Str, Strike Last) can be used one-handed. But, is it intended that other two-hand weapons (Halberd, Flail, etc) can be used One-handed with this skill?
A: No, those weapons rely more on skill. This skill simply represents the brutish strength of the said Beastman. [Tuomas, E-groups Mordheim mail list] "

I think if we can trust anyone, we can trust Tuomas.

EDIT: Should probably clarify I'm only half replying to you, Askil - and actually making a more general point on the nature of Massive Strength and Shaggy Hide.

[Lord 0]

I seem to recall that when they were being released there was the first Beastman version that included Massive Strength which was was FAQed to not include Halberd and the like.

The Warband list was then Rereleased to include Chaos Hounds, Centigors, and the Shaggy Hide skill, etc.

I might try houseruling it to be a Minotaur Only skill...

It would not surprise me at all to find that they had simply coallated *all* the FAQs without checking to see which questions were no longer relevant.

[Askil the Undecided]

I'd love to have both skills but it seems that most skill lists are desgined to have 6 or less skills on them for balance reasons.

Lezta are you sure you aren't referencing the first beastman list rather than the two newer ones?

Maybe take massive size as a house-ruled mutation?