Origin of the tyranids? Neumann machines?

[mrln68]

Well, until a book is written from the Tyranid's point of view - it will remain speculation.

Hate however is far from hunger, it isn't the same as bloodlust. The weapon specifically is said to hate several times in the story. For something that isn't sentient though, it is pretty amazing that it managed to take over the first psyker on the ship, hunt down everyone on board, force the psyker to put it in stasis, take over the second psyker in front of Kryptman and nearly kill him - pretty good for something which isn't sentient.

[Iracundus]

Ants farm, build large structures complete with air conditioning, and provision for times of scarcity, yet there won't be much disagreement as to the sentience of the individual ant. Complex activities by themselves are not necessarily proof in and of themselves of something's sentience.

[Ekranoplan]

Tyranids could have emotion, but they would probably only hate whatever is trying to kill them directly. I dont see why a Tyranid hivemind would hate just a bunch of little bio organisms on a rock. I dont go to a grocery store hating the fruit and vegetables, when i go fishing I dont hate the fish, but if there was a shark like the one from Jaws, I would probably hate sharks.

The whole question of the nature of the Hivemind's conciousness is very interesting, buts thats a discussion for another time.

Tyranids are deffinitly self replicating, just like every other species on the Earth. I wouldn't consider them Von Neumann machines though. Granted, the deffinition of a Von Neumann machine is very broad, its could be a swarm of nano bots, or something larger that deals with asteroid size chunks of material, or even organic creatures like the Tyranids. I guess Tyranids are a weak form of the Ven Neumann machines.

Ive just always envisioned true Von Neumann machiens being able to use any resources they find to replicate themselves, and they would probably need to be on the nanoscale to do that. Its like the Replicators from Stargate, except each basic block is a tiny nanomachine that groups together with other similar machines to accompish a task.

[Ekranoplan]

Also, this quote is relevant.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

Inquisitor Agmar on Tyranids

I dont fish, but if I were fishing it wouldn't be because I hate the fish. It would be for fun, or for food/money if I was born to a different life.

I think the big question is, do the tyranids plan? Does the Hivemind think about a potential attack, how it could go, and then make decisions based on that? Does it observe that these guys in the big suits are tougher then the puny soft guys, and more importantly, does it make decisions based on these differences?

[Iracundus]

The answer to that would be "Yes." In the novel Warriors of Ultramar, the Imperials used a tactic of detonating a refinery packed with explosives and volatile plasma. It destroyed a Tyranid hive ship and caused disruption in the fleet. When the Imperials tried to use a second refinery, not only did the Tyranids not take the bait, they turned the tables on the humans by taking the refinery and flinging it back to detonate it in the middle of the Imperial fleet, taking care to protect it from Imperial fire until it was well and truly in range. The Hivemind had learned not to attempt to consume the refinery, learned how to use it against its enemies, and had innovated to develop creatures to haul and protect the refinery.

[Ekranoplan]

The answer to that would be "Yes." In the novel Warriors of Ultramar, the Imperials used a tactic of detonating a refinery packed with explosives and volatile plasma. It destroyed a Tyranid hive ship and caused disruption in the fleet. When the Imperials tried to use a second refinery, not only did the Tyranids not take the bait, they turned the tables on the humans by taking the refinery and flinging it back to detonate it in the middle of the Imperial fleet, taking care to protect it from Imperial fire until it was well and truly in range. The Hivemind had learned not to attempt to consume the refinery, learned how to use it against its enemies, and had innovated to develop creatures to haul and protect the refinery.

Impressive. Now I wonder if the Hivemind is pleased about its plan. The ever growing field of AI has developed some great planning programs, alot of super store chains use AI for maintain constant, yet not wastefull, supply of inventory. Of course, these programs dont marvel at their awesome plans.

It also shows that the tyranids learn, something these inventory programs dont do. ( but we also have the capability to make a learning planner, i just cant think of any current applications off the top of my head)

[LexxBomb]

I just read a storm album concerning von Neumann machines and finding it an interesting thing I searched it on wikipedia wich led me to a page concerning self-replicating spacecraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-re...ing_spacecraft

According to this page we've got 3 types
-Von Neumann probes, pretty peacefull machines, probably most likeley used for interstellar travel.

-Berserkers, Very aggresive machines, will replicate themselves even if it means exterminating other lifeforms.

-Seeder pods, A spacecraft wich recreates things based on genetic information stored in the craft. (the craft can also be biological)

We all are aware that the tyranids are very alike to the bugs in starship troopers, but the more I think of it, the more I think they are a version of a mix between berserkers and seeder pods.
Tyranids are higly aggresive, exterminate other lifeform for no other reason then to replicate and do this based on genetic information.

It would also explain why the Tyranids leave that Necron planet thing in peace, as there is probably no biomass on that "planet" so it wouldn't be very interesting to them.

What do you people think, is my theory any good? or are we going to stick to the "starship trooper" theme?

but how do you explain the Zoats... The Tyranids didn't just devour them... they actually made them into a slave race... it was only after the numerous revolts by the Zoats that the Tyranids tried to devour them... the ones that escaped were then destroyed by the Imperium.

[Malice313]

but how do you explain the Zoats... The Tyranids didn't just devour them... they actually made them into a slave race... it was only after the numerous revolts by the Zoats that the Tyranids tried to devour them... the ones that escaped were then destroyed by the Imperium.

Zoats are a slave race created by the Tyranids. The have a high level of sentience, empathy and individuality so they can act as diplomats.

Then that didn't fit into the new fluff so they killed them off....

[dugaal]

I found this thread thinking about whether Tyranids consciously developed their unique genetic abilities or as some natural evolutionary step.
For instance, sentient humanoids to Tyranids, or Insects Hive to Tyranids.
I was appreciating the art of H.R. Giger, which was inspiration for 'alien' and therefore Tyranids, and It gave me a similar theory to the Von Neumann theory...
Imagine a sentient race with either technological or natural telepathy, socially amalgamating into hive behaviour due to political/ religious/mental control. Simultaneously they become interdependent with Neumann-tech, nano etc.

Basically Borg. (which share many similarities to Tyranids)

Scientists today however already know the superior efficiency of organic machines (us, animals, muscles, brains etc) which already have the capacity to do many of the things we strive to replicate with inorganic metals and chemicals.

Therefore a species at an early sentient hive stage could reach the conclusion that growing Biological material is more efficient then producing mechanical and electronic parts. Then its simply a matter of trading cybernetic enhancements with direct genetic manipulation. This process and learning if steady and unhindered, could 'tip' into exponential development (thanks to it's whole point being efficiency) and thus lead to a species like Tyranids.

H.R. geigers paintings of black ribcage like structures with humanoids and tech bits fused inside was my conception (or his really) of this early stage. The humanoids being either ignorant or aware of their role in this machine (slave? pilot?)

[Buddha777]

I have always wondered if the Tyranids represented a kind of biological doomsday device created by the old ones in which there is a trigger, say the rise of the chaos gods, that would unleash them destroying the galaxy as is (and eventually consuming themselves) but leave the galaxy free to re-evolve on its own.

[El_Machinae]

And every 50,000 years they return, to wipe out all sentient life, so that sentient life doesn't reform Chaos gods ...

[Buddha777]

And every 50,000 years they return, to wipe out all sentient life, so that sentient life doesn't reform Chaos gods ...

... ah crap, I totally just realized the horror of what I wrote earlier >.<

(It's only made worse by my level of hate for that game's, whose name shall never be mentioned again, ending)

[DietDolphin]

Imagine a sentient race with either technological or natural telekinesis, socially amalgamating into hive behaviour due to political/ religious/mental control.

You meant telepathy right? because...

This made me wonder if all humans could read each others minds and hear each others thoughts what would happen? I imagine it would drive everyone crazy having billions of voices in their head. but then what?
What everyone could feel what others felt too? Can you imagine mankind going crazy and then eventually harmonizing their emotions and thoughts, so that when everyone else felt anger, you did too which made others feel anger. One will through a collective mental oppression.

This is how i imagine the Tyranids. Whether they were sentient once upon a time doesn't matter. This would also explain why psykers go crazy trying to use their powers round tyranids, they are opening their minds to this intense mental presence which would be like being hit by a tidal wave.

Also with Chief librarian Tigerius having luck communicating (or some kind of non sense) with the hive mind. It would be interesting to see how someone like Magnus, who is far more powerful, sees the hivemind.

[dugaal]

They tried the whole Mankind is united via telepathy thing in Deus Ex, but it wasn't explored, just an ending that made it all happy.
But I think you're right that if you open up all thoughts to all and vice versa it would lead to bland unison thought, with all the mass psychosis you mentioned along the way. I could see strongest will and ironically weakest will individuals would survive; the strongest overcoming the burden and riseing up to offer the mental leadership, while the weakest willed would not fight and just succumb to mass thought. Anyone in the middle would go insane attempting to fight the stream.

Even if not all at once like some massive event, but a slower progression of ability, people would be compelled to conform their thoughts to be pleasing to others via social conformity.

[DietDolphin]

They tried the whole Mankind is united via telepathy thing in Deus Ex, but it wasn't explored, just an ending that made it all happy.
But I think you're right that if you open up all thoughts to all and vice versa it would lead to bland unison thought, with all the mass psychosis you mentioned along the way. I could see strongest will and ironically weakest will individuals would survive; the strongest overcoming the burden and riseing up to offer the mental leadership, while the weakest willed would not fight and just succumb to mass thought. Anyone in the middle would go insane attempting to fight the stream.

Even if not all at once like some massive event, but a slower progression of ability, people would be compelled to conform their thoughts to be pleasing to others via social conformity.

Yea i didn't mean this would all happen in a day but over a long period of time. At first i would it would probably be madness as everyone is trying to think individually then. Then a few people would start thinking in unison (and as you said the strongest having some control and the weakest falling in line). More and more people would harmonize with this collective thought process to survive and because of it being too hard to resist. Eventually once many many people have joined it would be too hard for one person to control so all would be a slave to it. But remember they are all now thinking the same so no one would be able to thinking of trying to resist or control it as it would be like trying to resist/control your own mind. ie everyones thoughts become yours.

It's even more interesting when you try to think about how things like change in climate or injuries could change what everyone is feeling, or force the feeling into submission.

[El_Capitan]

Well, think about it this way. Simple life is made up of single cell organisms. The human body however is made up of thousands of these cells, each specialised to perform a task. You could say that the human body is in fact a massive colony of single cell organisms working in harmony. There is only one mind controlling all these cells however, which in itself made up of many cells.

Use this analogy with the Tyranids. Each creature is a cell in the body that is the Tyranid race. The hivemind is simply the brain controlling the body.

[El_Machinae]

Mankind engages in collective thinking at the meta-level. Our writings, economics decisions, voting, consumption habits, etc. all result in superorganism phenomenon. Our huge advantage is communication, the ability to mentally model, and the ability to create 'greater good' scenarios. We're very nearly telepathic, what with our ability to text each other. I think the advent of superior lie detectors could be the next phase-shift in our superorganism status.