Games Workshop Pricing Feedback Thread

[iamfanboy]

Don't gotta tell me twice about that supporting other manufacturers.

Bought $100 of minis direct from Reaper last week (came to about $6 apiece on the minis), most of which I picked up only to paint, but they will get used in D&D and Deadlands games. One of them, Kassandra of the Blade I bought to make an alternate Ashlynn d'Elyse for Warmachine, and another is going to be a Bloodbowl troll.

I COULD have gone to the Warstore or another online retailer and gotten a 20% discount on the minis, sure, but the thing is that even before the discount the prices were reasonable enough I didn't feel like I was being ripped off.

I didn't HAVE to go to a discount online retailer just to feel like I was paying a reasonable price for minis.

And THAT is where GW fails.

[lanrak]

Hi folks.
From GW plcs OWN financial reports.
They have a gross margin of 76%.
That means for every £10 of retail price they make £7.60 GROSS profit.

The gross margin does not include shipping/logistic and retail costs though.

So for the box of Blood knights for example , £14.76 covers the costs of design development , manufacturing , and ALL overheads of GW plc apart from retail and logistic operations.

That means £46,74 GROSS profit for GW .

Now after the retail and shiping costs are taken off, that shrinks to just £7.70 net profit.

Basicaly GW plc WASTE £39,05 of thier gross profit on thier chain of B&M stores and shipping goods around the world.
(Appx breakdown £36 on GW plc B&M stores, and £3 on shipping and logistics.)

So if GW dropped the chain of B&M stores, they could sell the Blood Knights for £30, and still make more net proftit.
(£18 to cover ALL costs, £12 total net profit.)

SO if you do NOT use a GW B&M store , you are paying TWICE as much as you should, just to provide facilities for those that do.

[Shamutanti]

So if GW dropped the chain of B&M stores, they could sell the Blood Knights for £30, and still make more net proftit.
(£18 to cover ALL costs, £12 total net profit.)

SO if you do NOT use a GW B&M store , you are paying TWICE as much as you should, just to provide facilities for those that do.

Maybe - but then they wouldn't produce the range of kits they do each and every month, nor would you have the range of designers, game/sculpters/otherwise, and nor would you have the continual intake that GW obviously assists in providing. Now if only 5% of those turn to other game systems later on, then that's a population the gaming systems and companies are unlikely to see.

The GW Hobby overall would collapse, and where as their are going to be pockets that retain, it would diminish rather quickly over the years and then bang, you're unlikely to have those range of companies producing all those models that you happen to like.

I'm still unsure why this thread exists though, at least not now - maybe it served a purpose in the past but it seems quite obvious now that chance of feedback and shared experience has diminished to more base emotions... locking this thread could only help the gw general discussion forum :P

[jack da greenskin]

Keeping the kids amused for a few hours so they don't drive you crazy Forgive me if I am mistaken, but do Perry Miniatures have a worldwide retail network, a print publishing arm, a monthly publication, produce an extensive range of rules - with original artwork, a yearly games event, an in house painting studio and a major film license? No. They are two blokes - as lovely as their men on horses are - I suspect their overheads are considerably less than GW.

But that wasn't my point.

Indeed - I was merely pointing out, that as a hobby, it is no more expensive than many other pastimes.

So everyone is expected to bare the brunt of these "overheads" despite probably not using them? I really dont understand that logic. Stores should sell enough minis to cover their cost, otherwise, scrap them. BL books should sell enough to cover their cost, otherwise, let less books get through so only the really good ones are put up for sale. A customer in somewhere remote, like malaysia, or peru (no offence, just dont think they have any gw stores) is expected to foot the cost of a retail chain half the world away, selling space marines to kids?

What are you smoking?

[paddyalexander]

Shamutani can you please explain how dropping the retail chain (the biggest drain on their resources according to their own financial reports) would mean that they cease developement of their game systems and shut down their studiop. Please explain because I genuinly don't see how you can make that leap of "logic"?

This thread exists because there is something very wrong with gwPLCs' pricing and trade policies and there is no sign of it improving. An annual price "adjustment" of between 10%-15% over inflation in adittion to reboxings that equate to adittional 20%-30% price increases and small "adjustments" over the course of the year to "bring prices into line" and ridiculas international trade policies. Yeah I don't see why this 315 page thread exists at all. The idea that their customers should pay nearly double what they were being charged for the same product 5 years ago (or for the current product if they life outside of the UK) without voicing their concerns seems very reasonable.

gwPLC are the biggest wargames company right now and the most visible. Unfortunetly they are currently very poor representitives of the tabletop hobby mainly thanks to their core buisiness practices. By gwPLCs' own research most of the kids they introduce to the tabletop hobby will be burned out after 6 months of the gwPLC Hobby TM experience and will proberbly be turned off the over all hobby for life because of it. Even if you're no longer a customer of theirs gwPLCs' actions still have an impact on the over all hobby (sometimes possitive, like making the Warmachine and Dystopian Wars communities explode in my area after the last "price adjustment").

[loveless]

Maybe - but then they wouldn't produce the range of kits they do each and every month, nor would you have the range of designers, game/sculpters/otherwise, and nor would you have the continual intake that GW obviously assists in providing. Now if only 5% of those turn to other game systems later on, then that's a population the gaming systems and companies are unlikely to see.

The GW Hobby overall would collapse, and where as their are going to be pockets that retain, it would diminish rather quickly over the years and then bang, you're unlikely to have those range of companies producing all those models that you happen to like.

How in Sigmar's name did you come up with this conclusion?

Maybe I'm just not understanding you, but it seems like you're saying GW would be destroyed if it didn't have a chain of stores. When I got into this game, I didn't even know GW had retail stores. America tends to figure out the game exists just fine without relying on a specialist store for the product (then again, maybe we just have far more independent retailers here).

GW isn't Apple (even if it were, I'd argue that it's much easier to step into a big box store or other retailer and pick up an Apple product than it is to locate an Apple store and get it there). GW may want to be Apple, but unfortunately for them, marketing an expensive product and touting how "advanced" it is does not an Apple make. (Additionally, the Finecast debacle is probably worse than Antenna-Gate ever was )

Back on point - GW likely doesn't need those stores that are sucking up their revenue. I certainly don't think they'd collapse due to the lack of them - other stores would pick up the slack and continue to offer GW products.

If a company needs a dedicated retail store to survive in the miniature gaming world, then how is Reaper still around? Privateer Press? Mantic? Cipher? Spartan Games? Battlefront?

[iamfanboy]

Shamutani and others, I can understand your need to defend Games Workshop; all of us so-called haters have been there. It took a lot of time for us to move from your position (Games Workshop is the best rah rah!) to "Goddammit, they're failing, and failing more rapidly as each year goes by!"

Destroying the 'Games Workshop NEEDS the stores or it would die' argument are a few simple pieces of evidence to the contrary:

Fully 2/3rds of their INCOME (and their profits) come from areas where their stores are uncommon to rare - where their stores are NOT representative of their games. The United States accounts for fully one-third their income, and Europe/Asia accounts for another third. In other words, one-third of their income comes from the area that adheres to their 'ideal model' of Games Workshop stores selling official Games Workshop paint and glue and miniatures to official Games Workshop fans (male children 9-14 years of age.)

Only a third of their income comes from that.

Even in England, indie stores are experiencing a resurgence; as I said last page, in London non-GW stores that carry GW outnumber official stores five to one; when you go through the list and prune anything non-geeky (like toystores and the like), that number STILL stands at two to one. There are pretty large areas of England that GW withdrew from and now have indie stores serving them.

So, probably less than a third, all in all.

As far as what percentage of actual net PROFIT comes from retail stores and their sales to independent stores....

As of 2009, the percentage was 50/50; half their profits came from their retail outlets, and half from independents. Now, those numbers 'mysteriously' disappeared from the 2010 report.... but why would they have vanished?

Only if they had changed dramatically.

If they had changed dramatically in favor of the retail outlets (at a time when the one-man stores were trumpeted as a way to save their retail presence), GW would not have removed those numbers because they would have proved GW was right.

Since those numbers vanished, and would only have vanished if they changed drastically, and would not have vanished if they supported GW's retail outlets, that only means that their profits came dramatically from independents that year, meaning their retail model showed its serious flaws.

And they know it's flawed and dragging their business down, yet they continue to support it, and ask all of us buying their minis to subsidize it.


You can LOOK at their financial numbers to find that their design teams, testing teams, and other overheads are MINISCULE (in the range of a few million pounds, mere peanuts) to the burden of their retail stores (which eat up close to the neighborhood of 50 million pounds a year!) If they dumped the stores (which they wouldn't), their presence MIGHT shrink... but not to the point where they'd be firing the design staff.

And their profitability would shoot up. In 2009, their profits from the North American market were a paltry 700k. Once they closed a TON of their stores and started pushing to independents again in 2010, their profits nearly QUINTUPLED to 3.4 million!


tl;dr version: They're idiots. What's more, they KNOW they're being stupid, and trying to hide their stupidity behind weasel-worded financials where it takes someone who actually cares to find the truth - and most people don't. Especially not blindly-loyal defenders of their failed business model.

[Lord Dan]

Destroying the 'Games Workshop NEEDS the stores or it would die' argument are a few simple pieces of evidence to the contrary

So it's going to be a street battle, then? All right, fight!

Fully 2/3rds of their INCOME (and their profits) come from areas where their stores are uncommon to rare - where their stores are NOT representative of their games.

Opening blow!

As of 2009, the percentage was 50/50; half their profits came from their retail outlets, and half from independents. Now, those numbers 'mysteriously' disappeared from the 2010 report.... but why would they have vanished? Only if they had changed dramatically.

Body shot!

Since those numbers vanished, and would only have vanished if they changed drastically, and would not have vanished if they supported GW's retail outlets, that only means that their profits came dramatically from independents that year, meaning their retail model showed its serious flaws.

Low jab!

You can LOOK at their financial numbers to find that their design teams, testing teams, and other overheads are MINISCULE (in the range of a few million pounds, mere peanuts) to the burden of their retail stores (which eat up close to the neighborhood of 50 million pounds a year!)

Another low shot! They're on the ropes!!

In 2009, their profits from the North American market were a paltry 700k. Once they closed a TON of their stores and started pushing to independents again in 2010, their profits nearly QUINTUPLED to 3.4 million!

Haymaker!!! FINISH IT!!!

They're idiots. What's more, they KNOW they're being stupid, and trying to hide their stupidity behind weasel-worded financials where it takes someone who actually cares to find the truth

...annnnd this one goes to iamfanboy.

[strewart]

I'm still unsure why this thread exists though, at least not now - maybe it served a purpose in the past but it seems quite obvious now that chance of feedback and shared experience has diminished to more base emotions... locking this thread could only help the gw general discussion forum :P

This thread exists because before it did, people were complaining about prices in almost every other news or model related thread on Warseer. This thread is the way to shove all that complaint into a corner and let people get it off their chests without disturbing the rest of the forum. Which is amusing, because thats exactly how GW treats customer feedback.

@iamfanboy;
Well, for a lot of multinational huge companies, part of what makes them rich is their chain of stores. All fast food stores adhere by this model, nd a vast amount of the companies wealth is in real estate rather than profits. The profits naturally flow because exposure to the public is so high that people just go into the stores and buy, because its easy. I can definitely see why GW wants to keep the retail chain, and it certainly helps separate them from other miniature companies.
It would seem that the obvious problem specifically for GW is there is very little incentive to go into a GW store. As has been mentioned, the prices are 10-20% higher than anywhere else. The gaming tables are small. Quite often the staff harrass you to buy. (In my stores at least) the painting table is reserved for complete beginners only; after you have a bit of experience you are expected to bring your own paints or paint elsewhere. It would seem there are two sensible options. Close down the stores, or make significant action to make them more appealing for people to visit. It really just seems like stupid business to keep teetering along hoping things to fix themselves. It also doesn't instil much confidence in the company; why invest money in a company with stupid business practices??

[lbecks]

This thread exists because before it did, people were complaining about prices in almost every other news or model related thread on Warseer. This thread is the way to shove all that complaint into a corner and let people get it off their chests without disturbing the rest of the forum. Which is amusing, because thats exactly how GW treats customer feedback.

@iamfanboy;
Well, for a lot of multinational huge companies, part of what makes them rich is their chain of stores. All fast food stores adhere by this model, nd a vast amount of the companies wealth is in real estate rather than profits. The profits naturally flow because exposure to the public is so high that people just go into the stores and buy, because its easy. I can definitely see why GW wants to keep the retail chain, and it certainly helps separate them from other miniature companies.
It would seem that the obvious problem specifically for GW is there is very little incentive to go into a GW store. As has been mentioned, the prices are 10-20% higher than anywhere else. The gaming tables are small. Quite often the staff harrass you to buy. (In my stores at least) the painting table is reserved for complete beginners only; after you have a bit of experience you are expected to bring your own paints or paint elsewhere. It would seem there are two sensible options. Close down the stores, or make significant action to make them more appealing for people to visit. It really just seems like stupid business to keep teetering along hoping things to fix themselves. It also doesn't instil much confidence in the company; why invest money in a company with stupid business practices??

The #1 company by revenue is Wal-Mart, which is a retailer that sells other companies' products. Other companies that have huge revenue like Apple, Sony, Panasonic, Dell sell though WalMart. Apple and Sony sell through their own physical and internet stores as well but they have no qualms selling through WalMart, Costco, or Best Buy or any other large retailer. Compare that to GW where it seems there's a contentious relationship with it and it's independent retailers. Fast Food companies are different than electronics or entertainment goods because the "buy in" is low (dollar menu!), the time commitment is low (drive thru window!), and the customers can repeatedly purchase from them as food products are single use.

[Demonborger]

GW will do fine by dropping their retail stores, they can easily gain awareness through word of mouth, and the internet. Employ a couple of good sales persons per region who can organize events at local indies and they'll do well.

[lbecks]

GW will do fine by dropping their retail stores, they can easily gain awareness through word of mouth, and the internet. Employ a couple of good sales persons per region who can organize events at local indies and they'll do well.

I think a decent advertising plan would do them wonders. The regional sales guy is similar to what shoe companies like Adidas often do.

[Mastodon]

Im going to break it down for you since all of you bar Shamutani dont actually understand how the GW business model works. Ok, are you ready?

Its Recruitment, Recruitment, Recruitment.

No stores = magnitudes less new people = no GW in 20 years.

The retail chains sole existence is to get new people into the GW hobby. Thats it. Everything they do is about getting people to wander in, have an intro game and buy a core bundle. Bring their mates back, intro their mates and sell them a core bundle. This would not work at indie stores since, well in my experience they're more likely to not want people coming in and making them work, but most stores do not have the ability to offer intro games.

This is the reason they are opening more stores in london this year, and why they're looking to open more in the US and Europe. More exposure leads to more customers, but more importantly, customers are only exposed to GW games in GW stores.

And on your subject about their being twice as many indies than stores in London, they make about 5% of the actual money as the stores do. Just because more places carry product doesnt mean they sell it.

[Spectrar Ghost]

Why do GW need a chain of stores to do what the other major manufacturers do without one? Is it because as soon as GW product is placed next to competator's product, it suddenly stops selling? GW is at a point now where without some serious restructuring of their business model and pricing structure, they cannot compete with comparable products. This is largely because of the high fixed overheads of the retail chain, but also because of the business decisions they make so often.

Removing or drastically reducing the retail chain would allow those changes to be made in a way that would ultimeately benefit GW. Whether GW realizes this before the anchor of the retail chain sinks the ship? Who knows?

Where do you get the 5% number? It's not in the financials - they don't break down like that anymore. Is there a source you can link to or reveal?

[AlexHolker]

Im going to break it down for you since all of you bar Shamutani dont actually understand how the GW business model works. Ok, are you ready?

Its Recruitment, Recruitment, Recruitment.

The GW business model doesn't work. That's why they're stagnating, remember?

[EmperorNorton]

As somebody who first got interested in Warhammer when there wasn't even a single GW store in the entire country, I always find the proclaimed need for stores dubious.

No stores = magnitudes less new people = no GW in 20 years.

If they closed all the stores and did nothing to make up for it, maybe.
If they put a quarter of the money they sink into the stores into an advertisement campaign and maybe a few people helping into stores demo their games, I think they could more than make up for it, especially if that allowed them to lower their prices to a more acceptable level. They would have good word of mouth again. At their current pricing level I would never recommend to anybody to start playing their games.

And on your subject about their being twice as many indies than stores in London, they make about 5% of the actual money as the stores do. Just because more places carry product doesnt mean they sell it.

And if the GW stores went away, how much of their sales would the indies pick up?

[shelfunit.]

Im going to break it down for you since all of you bar Shamutani dont actually understand how the GW business model works. Ok, are you ready?

This will be good...

Its Recruitment, Recruitment, Recruitment.

...oh well, maybe not.

No stores = magnitudes less new people = no GW in 20 years.

This may be the case for England, but essentially no other country in the world has anywhere near the number of GW stores to make this even a remote possibility.

The retail chains sole existence is to get new people into the GW hobby. Thats it. Everything they do is about getting people to wander in, have an intro game and buy a core bundle. Bring their mates back, intro their mates and sell them a core bundle. This would not work at indie stores since, well in my experience they're more likely to not want people coming in and making them work, but most stores do not have the ability to offer intro games.

As above - outside of the UK there are simply not enough GW shops for this to have any impact on customer numbers.

This is the reason they are opening more stores in london this year, and why they're looking to open more in the US and Europe. More exposure leads to more customers, but more importantly, customers are only exposed to GW games in GW stores.

Exposure in indies is essentially a cost free way selling your product - shop are a huge drain on resources - especially when you can purchase exactly the same product 10-20% lower specifically by not going into them.

And on your subject about their being twice as many indies than stores in London, they make about 5% of the actual money as the stores do. Just because more places carry product doesnt mean they sell it.

You have nothing to remotely back this statement up - it is almost certainly incorrect and essentially worthless.

[SunTzu]

Well, for a lot of multinational huge companies, part of what makes them rich is their chain of stores. All fast food stores adhere by this model,

I'm pretty sure there are a few major, fundamental differences between GW and fast food that make any comparison worthless.

If I'm hungry, I want food NOW, not in three days time. If I decide I want some Space Marines, I'm completely OK with placing an order on the website and waiting for delivery.

Fast food companies CANNOT do business any other way than with a chain of shops. Wargames companies can and do.

The guy babbling about recruitment was utterly wrong about almost everything he said, but only thanks to the fact that he (like GW) hasn't woken up to the realities of the modern world. 25 years ago, the reason GW became the largest wargames company in the world was that they had shops everywhere, people walking past them went in because they were curious, and then went back because it was the only place that existed to feed their newfound hobby. No other company had any such presence - and so they remained firmly a very minor niche; essentially wargaming was Games Workshop. The shops, back then, were all about recruitment. Unfortunately the big bad internet came along and destroyed all that. Not only are there a bajillion other ways to find out about wargaming, the first thing anyone does when considering anything as a new hobby is an internet search. While they're on the internet they can buy their models (from whoever they want, much cheaper than from GW, and even GW stuff at a discount if they want), learn to paint, learn how to play, find opponents... everything a GW store used to do but much faster, easier, and more conveniently, only with the added benefit that there's plentiful independent advice, rather than a sales pitch. Other companies - once firmly sidelined without a shop presence - are thriving in this new age; GW - still thinking, like the "recruitment!" guy, only about shops - are losing market share hand over fist and seeing sales volume plummet and their shops have become nothing but a millstone around their neck.

[Wintermute]

I'm still unsure why this thread exists though, at least not now - maybe it served a purpose in the past but it seems quite obvious now that chance of feedback and shared experience has diminished to more base emotions... locking this thread could only help the gw general discussion forum :P

Yes it is obvious you clearly do not understand why this thread was created or what continuing purpose which it serves.

It will not be closed just because you are ignorant of its purpose. Its closure would not benefit GW General but would have a detrimental effect on GW discussions on WarSeer.

BTW if you wish to discover why this thread was created then please read the first post in this thread. If you still are unhappy about the existence of this thread then may I suggest you start a thread here in order not to take this thread off-topic.

Wintermute

[Autumn Leaves]

Get in there wintermute is exactly what I was thinking and lo and behold the great robot appears and drags Sham-man-phooey outside for 'six of the best' with the old fashioned cane and then a prolonged afternoon detention where he will write 1000 times, I will read the first post of the thread before sputtering forth nonsense.
Sham-man, this thread is absolutely essential to warseer.
Why?
Well GW does have a very high price tag on it's miniatures and this has been known to have a negative effect on the posts of the sites members.
That negativity used to seep out into all manner of forum areas and sections until it permeated the whole site causing putrefaction wherever it raised its discussion.
In order to save the site from this malingering malefaction Wintermute created this sink hole for the negative price based discussions.
It's proven itself to be highly effective because although there are many people who hate GW's pricing structures and constant increases, they still like many aspects of the hobby, and it keeps a good proportion of the 'hate' out of other topic areas, although it can still bubble up there from time to time.
Bottom line is GW toys are blardy expensive. Love them or hate them that doesn't change.

In regard to the GW retail chain issue- no question, 'keeping the hobby alive' in localised geographical areas has been difficult for GW to balance against the losses that come with maintaining a large chain of retail bricks and mortar. It has always been that way since the LotR bubble started to subside. The shops have been relocated, the hours shortened, staff levels lowered. Pretty much everything has been done to minimise outgoings from the stores.
It may be that in the internet age it may be a huge boost for GW to reduce their retail chain and drop the losses incurred from under-performing stores. Keeping the stores that are doing from ok to good.