Games Workshop Pricing Feedback Thread

[loveless]

I wish I could believe that, but I don’t. Few retailers would expect a 40% decrease in price to result in a 300% increase in sales. Besides, it feels like a lot of figures were indeed 40% cheaper 10 years ago, yet they weren’t selling in much greater numbers.

The numbers were included for ease of calculation, they weren't given as actual values other than the box of terminators.

GW costs are high for the size of game they advertise. Their entry costs are in the "astronomical" range for this particular hobby as well. Price is probably GW's #1 barrier in getting in new players. It's probably a massive reason that the aforementioned "burn and churn" happens...though how they keep getting people in, I'm not sure (it does sound like, on the UK side at least, it's a lot of kids using parental money).

We can go back to a need for consumer research at GW. Of course, that costs money, so GW would never do it on any reasonable scale. Anyway...

A fun question to ask during consumer research is "How much would you pay for...?" followed by a variety of items. You can use the results there to estimate which margin is going to make you the most profit. This does depend on the respondents not being ridiculous and answering in the vein of "Baneblade? $7!"

Looking at GW's current success, you have to wonder how many of their sales come from discounted indie sellers. Wayland, Maelstrom, The WarStore, Miniature Market, etc. - they're all churning out GW products at 20-25% off SRP. Local stores often give frequent buyer discounts as well - my old LGS had a punch card system that every gamer there slowly built up to a full card ($100) and then used that card to buy a bunch of GW stuff at 20% off.

Clearly GW can afford to lower the prices if resellers are selling that low. The margin is smaller for those indies than it could be, but the volume is high enough that they're making more money discounting than they are selling it at SRP.

I'm confident that GW could drop their SRP without dropping their wholesale price and make more money than they are now. I have no idea how much more, but I'm sure it's more than what they're getting now.

Now, the other issue with GW (well, same issue (insanity), but a different facet) is that they don't know what they're doing with resin yet. The Empire releases look good, and later batches of other 2012 models are working out pretty well also. The thing is, they're sending out between 2 and 10 copies of a Finecast model in some reports due to not being able to cast their own product. My last Finecast purchase resulted in me getting two chunks of useless swiss cheese resin and a refund. That can't be profitable.

[ThousandPlateaus]

I swung by a GW store today to have a look at the new Empire army book. I was thinking about buying it either from an LGS or from Salute next weekend, but as I was passing by, I thought I'd take a gander: if I'm honest, I had an itch to spend some cash and thought I might pick it up. When I had a look at it, though, I couldn't get over how thin it was. There's so little content to the new hardback army books that I think charging £15-20 for the thing would be pushing it a bit (and taking advantage of a captive market) but charging £25 is just taking the Michael. It's just rude.

I understand that everyone's price point is different when it comes to miniatures and some consider the current prices to be too high. Personally, I get a lot of pleasure from painting minis, and keep the ones I buy for a long time (I've owned some for over twenty years now), so I don't mind spending a bit of excess occasionally. When it comes to books, though, and books with a built-in obsolescence of four to five years: charging such an high price seems off to me. One doesn't even pay VAT on books so that isn't even added on to their costs. I can buy a high-quality artist's monograph for the same price, if not less. But for a more direct comparison: when compared to the books produced by Fantasy Flight Games (which I think are directly comparable), the GW supplements seem like such a rip off, they're about half the size for about £5 more. And this is just for a supplement, not a core rulebook, or large expansion, just an army list.

Tamurkahn, the Forge World book, was at least three to four times the length, full of brand-new artwork, beautifully conceived, beautifully designed and exquisitely produced - sure, at £45, it was a massively expensive product, but at least you could see where the money had gone: the new Empire book just feels like a rip off in comparison, and I'm ordinarily very forgiving of GW pricing.

[f2k]

The numbers were included for ease of calculation, they weren't given as actual values other than the box of terminators.

GW costs are high for the size of game they advertise. Their entry costs are in the "astronomical" range for this particular hobby as well. Price is probably GW's #1 barrier in getting in new players. It's probably a massive reason that the aforementioned "burn and churn" happens...though how they keep getting people in, I'm not sure (it does sound like, on the UK side at least, it's a lot of kids using parental money).

Do they churn’n’burn because of high prices or are the prices high because of churn’n’burn?

Interesting question...

I recall having heard the churn’n’burn phrase quite some time ago – might even have been back in the days of now long-gone Portent (Hallowed be thy memory!).

Does anyone else remember the Outrider program? Once upon a time, believe it or not, Games Workshop actually did seem to care. But that’s a very long time ago.

Personally, I think that the churn’n’burn idea preceded the price hikes we see now. I might just be looking at the past through rosy glasses, but I don’t recall having these massive hikes every year back when I began playing in 2. ed. 40K.
Seems to me that there was a change in mentality back then, around the time of the change to 3. ed. A greater emphasis on tournaments, on big units and big armies. And why not? If they had already fixed the idea of churn’n’burn in their mind back then, why not begin increasing prices?

I would love if someone with longer, and better, memory than mine would comment on that...

We can go back to a need for consumer research at GW. Of course, that costs money, so GW would never do it on any reasonable scale. Anyway...

Why should they? They decided, around the same time as I recall, that the it was the “Game Workshop Hobby (TM)”, that they didn’t need to advertise, that the players were price-insensitive, that people wanted bigger armies, and that they were going to swallow whatever outlandish * biiib * games Workshop would feed them.

Thus, there’s no need for any consumer research...

Looking at GW's current success, you have to wonder how many of their sales come from discounted indie sellers. Wayland, Maelstrom, The WarStore, Miniature Market, etc. - they're all churning out GW products at 20-25% off SRP. Local stores often give frequent buyer discounts as well - my old LGS had a punch card system that every gamer there slowly built up to a full card ($100) and then used that card to buy a bunch of GW stuff at 20% off.

Going by my local community (yes, yes, yes – I do realize that the plural of ”anecdote” isn’t ”evidence”) a fair bit of trade has moved over to the internet.

However, and I don’t quite know how big a however this is, I don’t think this is true for the main target: tweens and young teens. They need their parent’s money and I very much doubt they’re going to browse throughout the available online stores.

But, certainly, the local environment has suffered, going from three stores to just one and from two major clubs to just one struggling.

Clearly GW can afford to lower the prices if resellers are selling that low. The margin is smaller for those indies than it could be, but the volume is high enough that they're making more money discounting than they are selling it at SRP.

I'm confident that GW could drop their SRP without dropping their wholesale price and make more money than they are now. I have no idea how much more, but I'm sure it's more than what they're getting now.

Agreed on all counts.

Most people I know (yes, anecdotes again...) have all but stopped buying and playing due to the prices.

However, they still like the universe and, if the prices were more reasonable, then I’m confident that quite a few of them would return.

Now, the other issue with GW (well, same issue (insanity), but a different facet) is that they don't know what they're doing with resin yet. The Empire releases look good, and later batches of other 2012 models are working out pretty well also. The thing is, they're sending out between 2 and 10 copies of a Finecast model in some reports due to not being able to cast their own product. My last Finecast purchase resulted in me getting two chunks of useless swiss cheese resin and a refund. That can't be profitable.

I too doubt that Finecast can be profitable for them. But, of course, it depends on how many actually return the models and how many have drunken all the Kool Aid and shelled out for a Finecast Repair Kit...

In any case, among the few remaining veterans, this seems to have been somewhat of a PR disaster. Regardsless of whether or not they manage to straighten the Finecast problems out, this will probably take a long time to reverse.

[Darnok]

Tamurkahn, the Forge World book, was at least three to four times the length

Personal feelings aside: Tamurkhan is 208 pages, the current armybooks are 96 pages. Your numbers are way off.

[ThousandPlateaus]

Personal feelings aside: Tamurkhan is 208 pages, the current armybooks are 96 pages. Your numbers are way off.

Guh, ok - it certainly feels a lot bigger; which'll be due to the quality of paper in Tamurkhan: a genuinely premium product. But perhaps for a better comparison, Black Crusade is 400 pages long, and full of brand-new content and art-work (commissioned from freelance artists) for £40 - compared to 96 pages, some new art-work, some re-used and some photos from an in-house team for £25.

[loveless]

Why should they? They decided, around the same time as I recall, that the it was the “Game Workshop Hobby (TM)”, that they didn’t need to advertise, that the players were price-insensitive, that people wanted bigger armies, and that they were going to swallow whatever outlandish * biiib * games Workshop would feed them.

Thus, there’s no need for any consumer research...

They should because their view of the customer is flawed - not entirely incorrect as they're still obviously selling, but they're not meeting their potential. I've used this to describe other miniature companies that seem to just be treading water or going through the motions, and I'll say it about GW, too:

They're an A-student doing C-work at best.

Everyone thinks they know exactly what their customers want. Very few people want to issue any actual research, and even fewer will accept the results of that research. That's anecdotal experience - not evidence, mind you - from my own career.

I think there's some cultural issues there as well - it always seems to me like the UK is more willing to grin and bear it than other parts of the world.

I too doubt that Finecast can be profitable for them. But, of course, it depends on how many actually return the models and how many have drunken all the Kool Aid and shelled out for a Finecast Repair Kit...

In any case, among the few remaining veterans, this seems to have been somewhat of a PR disaster. Regardsless of whether or not they manage to straighten the Finecast problems out, this will probably take a long time to reverse.

Maybe that's the plan...use a terribly reviewed prodcut to finally get rid of all the veterans who keep sending in e-mails and letters complaining about prices, Finecast quality, and how the original plastic Space Marine sprue was lightyears better than anything they've put out for the army since then. You fill the void with "Timmies" who assume bubbles and miscasts are part of the allure of the product and are willing to pay more money for it - like those people who buy "Hershey's Air Delight" chocolate (chocolate filled with air bubbles) for the same price as a similarly-sized portion of "Hershey's Original" milk chocolate (with no bubbles).

[Morkash]

Personal feelings aside: Tamurkhan is 208 pages, the current armybooks are 96 pages. Your numbers are way off.

Tamurkhan's paper gives the illusion of being much bulkier though. It is almost as thick as the BRB, despite having 300 pages less.

On the armybook pricing: While not being cheap (my LGS retailer had to double check if the Ogre AB and the metal Ogre Tyrant I purchased were REALLY the same price), I find the new books very pleasing to own and have because their hardcover makes them look nice. Plus I really enjoy the artwork (thus I have Tamurkhan and soon Monstrous Arcanum as well).
All in all I prefer paying 32,50€ for a new armybook instead of paying 3 or 4 times 32,50€ to have a single unit of Greatswords/Bestigors/Black Orcs (they were 19,50 once!) in a fieldable size.
I'm used to GW's prices (in a way that FW seems to get more attractive/affordable every day...), but last year with the O&G and Ogre releases (my main armies) I was a bit unsettled when ordering 4 boxes of Savage Orcs for 15 pounds per box (roughly) and paying 90€ for three Finecast Ogre characters. I did it because I knew it was a one time purchase, but I can fully understand that newcomers are totally turned off by the price. Generally, I try to avoid reflecting on how much I spent on this hobby already. But as long as I've got stuff to paint, I'm a happy customer.

[EmperorNorton]

All in all I prefer paying 32,50€ for a new armybook instead of paying 3 or 4 times 32,50€ to have a single unit of Greatswords/Bestigors/Black Orcs (they were 19,50 once!) in a fieldable size.

Well, the books are 33€ now. At least the Empire book is, but I'm sure the other books will be brought in line shortly.
When I bought the last Empire book five years ago, it was 18€.
I don't have the new one in hand yet, but I am sure I will recognize most of the material, because I've read the stories and seen the pictures before.
And I don't even see it being hardcover as a plus, because it takes up more space.

[carlisimo]

I definitely agree that the cost of entry is a big deal. I got in through Gorkamorka specifically because it meant a friend and I were able to start playing for 10.000 pesetas (think of it as $100) plus paint. With our feet in the door, we kept buying 40k stuff until we started to play that. I’m surprised that GW doesn’t think that model works, but presumably they’ve run the numbers…

I also think GW sales would be better if they treated independent retails a lot better.

But I don’t complain much about prices. No, that’s not true, I do. But I kind of understand them, with the exceptions of Australia/NZ prices and some specific units’ prices. But GW isn’t making tons of money year after year.

[Angelwing]

Personally, I think that the churn’n’burn idea preceded the price hikes we see now. I might just be looking at the past through rosy glasses, but I don’t recall having these massive hikes every year back when I began playing in 2. ed. 40K.
I would love if someone with longer, and better, memory than mine would comment on that...

I don't recall 'churn and burn' from my time as a redshirt back in 95-97, however GW knew full well that their main customer was the pre teen + early teen boy. They admitted and accepted that after a few years the vast majority of this customer ditched the hobby to chase beer and girls. They also knew that if they were lucky some might come back in their very late teens / early twenties, typically university students. From these students would come virtually all GW part time store staff members (like myself). This I learnt from John Stallard on my 'induction' (I went after about a year in employment!) trip to Nottingham HQ.

[Tymell]

Regarding army books, I wouldn't have any problem if only there was a choice between hardcover/more expensive and softcover/cheaper. That way those who really want the bulkier, better looking ones can get them, those who would prefer to pay less for something (in their eyes) every bit as good could.

And that whole comparison makes me think of Forge World: theirs are supposed to be the much pricier kind of models, there as a premium option if you can afford it and want something special, but always with GW there as the conventional and more reasonably priced option that most will go for. At least until recently, as the gap between the two seems to be lessening, removing that distinction of choice between cheap mass market and expensive luxury.

Which in turn brings me to a thought that I find commonly coming up with GW's price direction. They're moving closer and closer to FW, and from what statements they've made they do indeed seem to be aiming for a "premium product" style as a whole: Charging higher prices for higher quality miniatures. Which isn't an entirely unfair argument (depending on just what you think of their quality, and ignoring the rises on unchanged items of course), but I can't see how they can continue to dominate the market if they go in that direction.

I'm not saying Forge World wasn't/isn't successful, but it's never been about mass consumption. It's a rarity, something you buy as a very occasional treat or for a centrepiece, and extremely rarely for whole armies. Forge World illustrates the point that no matter how good the models are, if you charge very high prices you -will- rule out a lot of people, and you -won't- sell in big volumes or across wide ranges of gamers, certainly not on the scale of whole armies.

Yet that appears to be exactly what GW are trying to do. They emphasise larger armies and games, yet at the same time seem to be moving towards the model of a "rarely seen luxury" company. To me, that can't work. If you go for Forge World quality and Forge World prices, then you will get Forge World sales volumes.

Just my rambling, hope it makes sense to someone else

[iamfanboy]

I’d never thought the day would come where I’d be defending Games Workshop...

Please don’t take this as a personal attack, but that except you posted was so biased that I have to call into question the entire article.

I’m not, in any way, claiming that Games Workshop isn’t expensive. It is. VERY expensive. However, you’re comparing two vastly different games here. 40K is a mass-combat system designed around armies of roughly company size whereas Malifaux is a skirmish system designed around individual models.

A far more relevant comparison would be a game like Mordheim.

Rules: Free download of the full rules.
Gang: Around $40

Dice and paint still needed, of course...

You could also compare it to Necromunda in which case the rules will set you back with some $50.

(Weren’t they a free download at one point?)

Anyway...

My point is that comparing a mass-combat system with a skirmish system isn’t exactly fair.

But apart from that, I will agree with you in regards to entry cost. It is, and has been for nearly a decade, been slowly killing Games Workshop. It IS a big problem, but they seem completely oblivious to it...

I actually find it quite fair to compare GW to Wyrd Miniatures et al, but from another angle:

They both charge about the same for a human-sized miniature, as well as for a monster sized/vehicle sized miniature (actually, two years ago they did, but most companies have stayed the same on price while GW has gone up, of course.) The same amount of money will buy you the same amount or size of mini whether it's Malifaux or Warmachine or Warhammer 40k.

The only catch is that you need a lot more GW minis than Malifaux/Warmachine/Infinity.

Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are weird kludges, rules-wise. The scale of battles they want to sell towards would be better off in a 15mm or even 6mm scale; 28-35mm is generally reserved for warband/RPG size combats. Its rules are a half-evolved mess from its origins as a jumped-up warband-sized wargame (20-30 minis a side with a few vehicles).

I'm not saying it's BAD; it's just a... muddy mixture that changes rules-sets so often not necessarily JUST because the parent company wants cash (there are plenty of ways to do that), but because each new head developer has his own 'vision' on how to correct the problems with the game.

[Darnok]

Guh, ok - it certainly feels a lot bigger; which'll be due to the quality of paper in Tamurkhan: a genuinely premium product.

Tamurkhan's paper gives the illusion of being much bulkier though. It is almost as thick as the BRB, despite having 300 pages less.

Complete agreement from my side. I just wanted to correct a wrong statement, even though I too feel like I get a lot more value form FW. Tamurkhan is a premium product, and well worth its price (even though I got it as a birthday present so did not have to pay for it at all ), while the armybooks are gaming essentials. You need them to play, there is no way around it. I find the current hardcovers to be of solid quality, but I think they are overpriced for what you get. That's a sad thing for me to say, because I'm the kind of collector who liked to have as many of the books as possible - they were always good ressources to have, and I still love to take older books from the shelf and just flick through them. But at todays prices a simply can not afford that.

P.S.: Note that - even as a student with a very restricted budget - I will get Monstrous Arcanum from WF. I'm simply that convinced of its quality.

[Chivs]

A quick comparison of the last two gaming books I bought: Codex Dark Eldar by Games Workshop and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook by Paizo:

Codex Dark Eldar:
Softcover
Page Count: 96
Current Direct Price: £20.00
Alternative options to purchase: Some online retailers can sell it at 20% off. e.g Wayland Games sell for £16.00. Others may find it cheaper. I paid £12.50 in 2009.
Black and White book, with 16 page 'Eavy Metal colour section. All artwork black and white.

Pathfinder
Hardcover
Page Count: 576
Current Direct Price: $49.99 (converts to £31.50 according to Google)
Alternative retailers: Amazon £24.69. Paizo also sell a .pdf file for $9.99 (£6.30)
Full colour, including coloured page backgrounds. Colour artwork every few pages, including 15 Double Page spreads. No photographs.

The Dark Eldar Codex revamped a dying army. The background was new and fresh, the artwork looks great, and the army list is regarded as well balanced both externally and internally, competitive and with plenty of options to build your army. On the negative side, the 'eavy metal section only has pictures for 11 (Archon, Lelith, Urien, Incubi, Mandrakes, Warriors, Wyches, Raider, Reavers, Hellions and Ravager) out of 32 Unit entries in the codex (This figure of 32 is including all 8 special characters, TrueBorn and Bloodbrides as seperate unseen units (there's no guarantee they will look like the base warriors or wyches, or even whether they should) and includes the court of the archon and beasts as single entries (these should arguably cover 8). Second Waves really annoy me when the Codex, supposed to be the definitive guide to the army, does not contain photos of a significant number of models.

The Pathfinder book contains vast amounts of rules to allow the generation of characters, and the running of games for a GM. Based heavily on the 3.5 edition of Dungeons and Dragons, it is arguably less original than the Dark Eldar Codex but a significant upgrade on the Wizards of the Coast book that preceded it. The artwork is new and original. This book does contain almost all you need to play roleplaying games, and makes the use of other products (such as models or cards) or further supplements optional rather than compulsory. The only thing missing is a Bestiary of foes to fight. However as this product was developed under the Open Gaming Licence, this information is freely available online, though further hardback books can be purchased. There was also wide public playtesting of the rules, with a beta test of the product free to download before the book was published.

So why have I written all the stuff above? A simple comparison between how two companies market their products and what they charge for a book. Yes I compared a core rulebook to a supplement, but I still think many of the comparisons stand. While I like the Dark Eldar codex, and have found it a useful resource when planning an army and choosing a paint scheme, it is very expensive per page count and incomplete. The pathfinder book is a superior product in terms of quality and quantity, and in my opinion far greater value for money. Finally I had far more freedom and flexibility in how I purchased the Pathfinder book.

[Damien 1427]

I'm not saying it's BAD; it's just a... muddy mixture that changes rules-sets so often not necessarily JUST because the parent company wants cash (there are plenty of ways to do that), but because each new head developer has his own 'vision' on how to correct the problems with the game.

There's a reason why the first things Alessio Cavatore and Andy Chambers did when they left was release their own wargames. To "fix" a lot of the supposed problems 40k, and to a lesser extent Fantasy, has, you'd need to completley rebuild the game from the ground up. As you say, the game is simply too big for the mechanics to support. I can't say for sure because this was when I was starting (I came in toward the end of 2nd Edition), but there was uproar when they moved from 2nd Edition to 3rd. Which is why they won't do such a massive overhaul again, the backlash was, apparently, enormous. And you'd end up throwing out an enormous amount of product only to start again from scratch. It's just cheaper and easier to tweak the game every couple of years to the whims of whoever has the strongest personality in the current design team.

For what it's worth, I think the Privateer Press model is one to follow. Put the core rules up in a no-frills PDF, include the rules on a card (Or even on a slip of paper) inside the box, still sell the books as you do now. At the very least, people may buy more models, and you're freed up to put out more kits that aren't automatically tied to an army book.

[Morkash]

And that whole comparison makes me think of Forge World: theirs are supposed to be the much pricier kind of models, there as a premium option if you can afford it and want something special, but always with GW there as the conventional and more reasonably priced option that most will go for. At least until recently, as the gap between the two seems to be lessening, removing that distinction of choice between cheap mass market and expensive luxury.

Which in turn brings me to a thought that I find commonly coming up with GW's price direction. They're moving closer and closer to FW, and from what statements they've made they do indeed seem to be aiming for a "premium product" style as a whole: Charging higher prices for higher quality miniatures. Which isn't an entirely unfair argument (depending on just what you think of their quality, and ignoring the rises on unchanged items of course), but I can't see how they can continue to dominate the market if they go in that direction.

I'm not saying Forge World wasn't/isn't successful, but it's never been about mass consumption. It's a rarity, something you buy as a very occasional treat or for a centrepiece, and extremely rarely for whole armies. Forge World illustrates the point that no matter how good the models are, if you charge very high prices you -will- rule out a lot of people, and you -won't- sell in big volumes or across wide ranges of gamers, certainly not on the scale of whole armies.

Yet that appears to be exactly what GW are trying to do. They emphasise larger armies and games, yet at the same time seem to be moving towards the model of a "rarely seen luxury" company. To me, that can't work. If you go for Forge World quality and Forge World prices, then you will get Forge World sales volumes.

Just my rambling, hope it makes sense to someone else

Nicely explained, and I agree whole-heartedly. When the Fimir Warriors from FW were released a few weeks ago, I saw that they were only 30 pence more expensive than GW's River Trolls, while the Vargheists and Treekin are even more expensive than the Fimirs! And this development is quite disturbing, because of the points you explained. I saw people thinking about using Skin Wolves instead of Crypt Horrors because they liked the models more and the price difference was relatively minor.

I also compared starting an Empire army and starting a Legion of Azgorh army and found that the starting price for both would be ... not exactly cheap. I'm commonly playing 3000 points, and you want to change between models sometimes, so I included stuff for roughly 4000 points.
Empire would cost £561.50, armybook included.
Legion of Azgorh would cost £697.00, Tamurkhan included.

Now the Legion is almost 150 quid more expensive. But how many people could afford to start either of these 2?
Of course you could argue that one doesn't need 4k points to start playing and that Morkash is, in general, a shiny-greedy and not very trustworthy companion. But the point I was trying to make is that while FW does the Legion for collectors and people who want something special, GW produces for its main systems and despite this obvious differences the prices are far to similar for this purpose in my opinion, the only gap being the core units, where the Infernal Guard really pushes the Legion higher in price.

P.S.: Note that - even as a student with a very restricted budget - I will get Monstrous Arcanum from WF. I'm simply that convinced of its quality.

Also, this. I was stunned by Tamurkhan and I'm expecting no less from Monstrous Arcanum. I'm a student as well, but these 45€ are worth it for me.

[Coasty]

But GW isn’t making tons of money year after year.

That's because their products are too expensive, their marketing strategy is completely surreal and customer relations as a whole are pretty poisonous.

As a company that's trying to sell very expensive model soldiers in the middle of a huge recession, they're going to have to start being pretty inventive if they want to stay afloat.

[Trasvi]

Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are weird kludges, rules-wise. The scale of battles they want to sell towards would be better off in a 15mm or even 6mm scale; 28-35mm is generally reserved for warband/RPG size combats. Its rules are a half-evolved mess from its origins as a jumped-up warband-sized wargame (20-30 minis a side with a few vehicles).

I'm not saying it's BAD; it's just a... muddy mixture that changes rules-sets so often not necessarily JUST because the parent company wants cash (there are plenty of ways to do that), but because each new head developer has his own 'vision' on how to correct the problems with the game.

This seems like one of many weird dichotomies of GW.
1) The models are sized for skirmish games but the push is towards mass battles
2) The rules are evolved from skirmish games and put a lot of emphasis on individual models, but the push is towards mass battles
3) The models are highly detailed and multipose, but they are generally placed en masse (as opposed to many skirmish games where only one pose of each model is available)
4) The marketing is towards teenagers, but the pricing is far out of their individual range
5) Initial investment is huge and gets cheaper as you go along.

[shelfunit.]

This seems like one of many weird dichotomies of GW.
1) The models are sized for skirmish games but the push is towards mass battles
2) The rules are evolved from skirmish games and put a lot of emphasis on individual models, but the push is towards mass battles
3) The models are highly detailed and multipose, but they are generally placed en masse (as opposed to many skirmish games where only one pose of each model is available)
4) The marketing is towards teenagers, but the pricing is far out of their individual range
5) Initial investment is huge and gets cheaper as you go along.

I'd agree pretty much with all those points. The only one I'd hesitate with is number 5. Whilst it is very true once you have an army the bulk of the expense is done with, but depending on your army you will need both a rule book and a new army book every 4-5 years (currently + an additional £70). On top of that there willl be a number of "new" unit choices - see Empire/all 8th ed army books - the two new wagons (£60) a small unit (3) of Demigriffs (£33.50) and maybe a new griffon (£33) - all lovely models by the way - but still we are talking about £151 just to have 1 unit of troops, 2 support models and a character, oh and the army book (+additional £45 if the new rules came out at the same time). To make the army "up to date" and take of advantage of the (my new least favourite word) "synergy" of the new book is almost needing you to buy 1/3 of an army - the basic cost of an army with a couple of swap-out choices now getting to the £450 mark.

[Mr Ogre]

I'd agree pretty much with all those points. The only one I'd hesitate with is number 5. Whilst it is very true once you have an army the bulk of the expense is done with, but depending on your army you will need both a rule book and a new army book every 4-5 years (currently + an additional £70). On top of that there willl be a number of "new" unit choices - see Empire/all 8th ed army books - the two new wagons (£60) a small unit (3) of Demigriffs (£33.50) and maybe a new griffon (£33) - all lovely models by the way - but still we are talking about £151 just to have 1 unit of troops, 2 support models and a character, oh and the army book (+additional £45 if the new rules came out at the same time). To make the army "up to date" and take of advantage of the (my new least favourite word) "synergy" of the new book is almost needing you to buy 1/3 of an army - the basic cost of an army with a couple of swap-out choices now getting to the £450 mark.

What you've said is fair, however do remember it's optional. I think it's a credit to the Design Studio that us Gamers do go nuts for shiny new toys, to the point where buying them feels compulsory!

For me, the prices aren't much of a concern. I'll get maybe a new army every year, and most of what I have is unpainted. When I do get round to painting an army, the amount of time I spend indulging in this hobby gives me what I consider terrific value for money. For instance, I like a drink me, and a trip to the pub, works out at around £24.15 a visit, as 7 pints then it's home time! That too is value for money, to me, because I enjoy myself, and get to hang out with my friends. But my GW stuff is of a higher order for my tastes because it's still there years later!

It does have a high start up cost, but with an appropriate guiding hand, it's worth the investment. I worked for GW up until about 18 months ago, and the training for us shop mooks is all about doing recruitment properly, and getting as many people as possible involved. Which the opposite to what many claim! (Grab the money and run is not the way!) Parents and newbies are happy to spend the money, because it's bloody good fun collecting, building, painting and playing!