Games Workshop Pricing Feedback Thread

[Iron Puritan]

The "big mystery" approach makes absolutely no sense for a new edition of their core rules as it is becoming a farce. It assumes that people who have hobbies do not look up their interests online, or at least never go past the Games Workshop official web presence. How bizarre is that? This gets doubly weird as so many of us are part of one online community or other. The demographic is probably more connected than most.

A vastly better campaign would have been open betas for six months followed up with some cool ads and promotions for the release date of the finished product. Even Wizards of the Coast are using this method with D&D Next (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnDNext.aspx). This process would have gone a long way toward engaging the fan base, noob and veteran alike, with something real and interactive. Such a move could have even persuaded some veterans to start buying Citadel miniatures again. Alas, this was not meant to be...

[Scaryscarymushroom]

A vastly better campaign would have been open betas for six months followed up with some cool ads and promotions for the release date of the finished product.

They did that once. In the waning days of 3rd, trial assault rules were published in white dwarf. And then again in chapter approved 2004 (awesome book BTW).

[Iron Puritan]

Did they establish a means for players to provide feedback to developers? Otherwise that would have simply been a preview. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped the ball and decided that meant the whole concept is bogus. Beta testing is becoming a big trend in a number of industries and there is a good opportunity for a company to generate goodwill if players think the company is actually listening. I don't know if WotC's method is the best possible way to go about it, but there's definitely buzz surrounding the project as word is going around that it harkens back to an older school flavour of D&D. GW should pay attention.

[Sean_OBrien]

I have a feeling that there are a lot of things that are going on which make GW more than a little concerned.

While the beta testing of the rules is an interesting concept - it isn't always feasible with this sort of project. Software, nice and simple with various bug tracking capabilities and debugging tools which can be used in addition to or even built into the beta releases. Usually though, more conventional play testing works best. The developers are actually there watching and taking notes of what happens...or doesn't happen. I know when TSR was developing AD&D 2nd Edition, they did a fair amount of playtesting and I was able to participate in a couple of sessions. Unless a play by play...roll by roll...line by line account is provided though, the beta testing is more for hype than anything else.

To the issue of pricing, just hopped over to see if anything new or interesting was available from FFG (being free RPG day and all). Nothing much, but then I noticed that a few of the books I hadn't gotten were available for Download Purchase. PDF format from Drive Thu RPG - but the real kicker is the price. Most are about 50% the cost of the printed copies. GW might want to take note of that.

The other thing which I found to be interesting was what is going on with Mantic. While the numbers are probably significantly smaller than those which GW brings in when they do preorders and what not - their Kings of War Kickstarter project is up to $120K now. That should more or less cover their fantasy development costs for the next year or so. What that also means is that while it might have taken them 3 or 4 years of building up projects, they will now be able to push them out faster to fill out the whole roster of different army types and units within those armies.

If things like that, and the other Kickstarter projects which are competing for GW's dollar don't make them raise an eye brow in the board room - then the board members really need to be fired. I know they are counting on the Hobbit license bringing in a nice windfall - but that will only carry them so far (based on the last LotR releases...maybe a few years, though the sales fell sharply as soon as the hype around the movies had faded).

[EmperorNorton]

The other thing which I found to be interesting was what is going on with Mantic. While the numbers are probably significantly smaller than those which GW brings in when they do preorders and what not - their Kings of War Kickstarter project is up to $120K now. That should more or less cover their fantasy development costs for the next year or so. What that also means is that while it might have taken them 3 or 4 years of building up projects, they will now be able to push them out faster to fill out the whole roster of different army types and units within those armies.

If things like that, and the other Kickstarter projects which are competing for GW's dollar don't make them raise an eye brow in the board room - then the board members really need to be fired. I know they are counting on the Hobbit license bringing in a nice windfall - but that will only carry them so far (based on the last LotR releases...maybe a few years, though the sales fell sharply as soon as the hype around the movies had faded).

As happy as I am for Mantic that they are doing so well on Kickstarter, you have to keep in mind that what they are taking in through their project is less than one-tenth of one percent of GW's annual turnover. I'm not convinced that is enough to warrant the raising of an eyebrow in the grand scheme of things.

[Iron Puritan]

Ask yourself this question: How much market share will Mantic command in five to ten years time? The fact that they are securing a solid chunk of debt free capital could mean good things for their long term health if they manage their money well. I doubt we'll see any one company rival GW in terms of size, but there are more companies making money selling rules and miniatures than you can shake a bucket of dice at these days.

[Lord Dan]

They did that once. In the waning days of 3rd, trial assault rules were published in white dwarf. And then again in chapter approved 2004 (awesome book BTW).

Oh man, I remember those! Wasn't that the one where they tried out stand-and-shoot reactions?

[EmperorNorton]

Ask yourself this question: How much market share will Mantic command in five to ten years time? The fact that they are securing a solid chunk of debt free capital could mean good things for their long term health if they manage their money well.

How much of that capital will stay with Mantic once they have filled all the preorders and sent out all those "free" miniatures they are giving to their backers?

[Melkanador]

How much of that capital will stay with Mantic once they have filled all the preorders and sent out all those "free" miniatures they are giving to their backers?

Probably nothing after the costs are deducted, but how many customers are gained through this besides the generell higher brand awareness?

But this probably belongs to another thread.



Ontopic:

I was shocked that the new 40k rulebook is 60€ + 10€ for the psychic book.

[EmperorNorton]

Probably nothing after the costs are deducted, but how many customers are gained through this besides the generell higher brand awareness?

I don't think the project itself will gain them many customers. After all, while they have raised a tidy sum, the number of backers is currently at a mere 638. And I'd venture a guess that a majority of those were Mantic customers beforehand.
Now how many new customers they will be able to attract thanks to the new units they will produce due to the Kickstarter, no clue.

[Iron Puritan]

How much of that capital will stay with Mantic once they have filled all the preorders and sent out all those "free" miniatures they are giving to their backers?

Very little, but they didn't have to take out loans in order to put that in motion. Repaying business loans can be difficult in the early days of a business, and Mantic stands to benefit by not having that looming in the background.

[The Marshel]

How much of that capital will stay with Mantic once they have filled all the preorders and sent out all those "free" miniatures they are giving to their backers?

this is the thing about the mantic kickstarter. It wasnt so much a kickstarter as it was a case of "hey guys, if you buy our stuff, we'll have more money, which we can use to make more stuff for you to buy, also, why not pre order that new stuff while you're at it." Imo, it was pretty well thought out in that it looked like you were backing a project and getting a great deal out of it, but you basically would have gotten the same number of minitures if you had just bought them normally. mantic didnt run a fundraiser, they ran a huge sale disguised as one

[Sean_OBrien]

As happy as I am for Mantic that they are doing so well on Kickstarter, you have to keep in mind that what they are taking in through their project is less than one-tenth of one percent of GW's annual turnover. I'm not convinced that is enough to warrant the raising of an eyebrow in the grand scheme of things.

Right around 80,000 pounds in about 3 weeks time that goes entirely towards new tooling and probably a 10,000 or so in materials and shipping for the rewards which people are getting. In 2011, GW spent 2.3 million pounds on tooling over the entire year. That breaks down to about 191,000 per month. So, in one month, Mantic will likely approach half the tooling expenditures of GW in one month. And, it is only for the fantasy side of things. In a few weeks/months - if they do a Kickstarter for the sci-fi side of Mantic's business...they may very well do as well or better (I would wager better - though that is speculation).

So, yes - while it is less than the total GW sales...it is actually a pretty significant amount of money. Especially when it is going into the development of a product which should provide a return for Mantic for years if not decades (not sure what their product lifespan goals are, but many designs from the 1980s are still kicking around miniature companies today). That long term return is what the GW board room needs to concern themselves with - and the speed at which they will be able to produce the lines at with the influx of capital.

Now how many new customers they will be able to attract thanks to the new units they will produce due to the Kickstarter, no clue.

That is the big thing, most of the store owners I have talked to are not interested in being early adopters to games which are being built. They like to be able to throw it out there and have customers able to buy what they want - not wait a year or two before their particular army (or units within an army) are released. Many of them said they would like to be able to stock Mantic products, but because of the more limited line - it wasn't worth while yet.

The other issue is of course the sales which will be garnered by selling to GW customers. As the prices go up, there are many people who want to continue to play WFB - but for budget or other issues can not afford to start a new army. Mantic's more complete lines allow them to move in on those customers. Those customers get their new toys in front of other customers, so on and so forth...

[Iron Puritan]

this is the thing about the mantic kickstarter. It wasnt so much a kickstarter as it was a case of "hey guys, if you buy our stuff, we'll have more money, which we can use to make more stuff for you to buy, also, why not pre order that new stuff while you're at it." Imo, it was pretty well thought out in that it looked like you were backing a project and getting a great deal out of it, but you basically would have gotten the same number of minitures if you had just bought them normally. mantic didnt run a fundraiser, they ran a huge sale disguised as one

Umm... That is essentially what Kickstarter is for. Mantic used crowdsourcing to raise capital instead of going to the banks. It is a rather nifty marketing strategy. People feel like they were involved in something and got a bargain in the process, all the while the company establishes goodwill while presumably minimizing debt load. It would be a vastly different situation if Mantic already had all of their manufacturing capacity set up and ready to go before launching the fundraiser.

[AGC]

Don't forget Sedtion wars: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...r?ref=category
That's over $300,000 dollars that won't be going into GW's coffers. As a chunk of total global revenue it may not be much but some of GW's regions have very narrow profit margins. That these kind of sums are being raised so quickly on kickstarter has to cause GW concern. Especially since they spend so much of their revenue on shops to gain sales.

[Iron Puritan]

How long would it have taken Games Workshop to raise a similar chunk of capital when they were in roughly the same part of their life cycle?

[Crovax20]

I don't think the project itself will gain them many customers. After all, while they have raised a tidy sum, the number of backers is currently at a mere 638. And I'd venture a guess that a majority of those were Mantic customers beforehand.
Now how many new customers they will be able to attract thanks to the new units they will produce due to the Kickstarter, no clue.

I'm very much contemplating going mantic. GW business model is just toxic, might as well jump ship

[Llew]

I know of one instance of a Kickstarter backer who had never heard of Mantic. He was playing Bloodbowl with a friend of mine in Columbus. He had been priced out of WFB a few years ago by GW and had quit wargaming. My friend told him about Mantic's rules and that piqued his interest. He checked it out, liked the idea, saw the Kickstarter and joined in for an army's worth.

Now, he wasn't a direct pullaway from GW. But he's a perfect example of the fact that GW's prices *are* driving away people who still have an interest in wargaming. And they will reach a few new customers out of this. More importantly though, it shows that there is still a viable pool of customers who want to wargame, but just not at GW's prices.

[loveless]

Mantic's Kickstarter - if you pledge around $200 USD - is effectively "Get a bunch of minis and our rulebook, plus sample minis from all of our other fantasy product lines" - and I think that's what's so attractive about it. You can try a little bit of everything in one fell swoop.

I could see GW benefitting from a "sample pack" - hand out a few models from several armies for a reasonable price to really let people get a tactile sense of everything you have to offer. Mind you, GW could also benefit from things like "Buy a Battalion, get a free Hero!" or "Buy an army book, get a free Core choice!" deals.

Last night, my LGS announced a sale - for the rest of the month, they're effectively at online discounter prices (and it extends to preorders if paid in full at the time of order). I was, for whatever reason, in awe of this. I'm just so...unaccustomed to sales in the GW section of the hobby. GW prices are still absurd, but the indies are still trying to make the game work. I'm of half a mind to point out mantic to them...Fantasy stuff doesn't move too quickly (and it's on sale at a deeper discount than 40K), but I'm not sure if it's price or interest.

Anyway, to try and get back to my point...

Some of those prices are discounted enough that I feel they're worthwhile - GW will probably get some of my hobby money again thanks to my LGS's efforts. Mind, I still won't be buying Marine anything because the vehicle prices are far too high, but I'll still likely get something for my Dark Eldar or Vampires.

So, sale = "GW gets more of Loveless' money."
Regular price = "GW gets none of Loveless' money."

Does that make me cheap or GW insane?

[Reinholt]

Does that make me cheap or GW insane?

I like how you assume those are mutually exclusive.



Related, though, DE at 20% off makes me feel like those models are still maybe worth some of the price... a rarity for GW now.