Sigh....its very simple
Dont like the price hike dont buy all the books
Your ENTIRE complaint is based on the fact you've previously made the CHOICE to by every book and now your unhappy with the price rise.
Sigh....its very simple
Dont like the price hike dont buy all the books
Your ENTIRE complaint is based on the fact you've previously made the CHOICE to by every book and now your unhappy with the price rise.
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My Nids
Battleworlds - 20% off everything & more!!
"Its a war game, not just top trumps." - Latro
Also ok 15 x 60p is 9 its pretty obvious what i did.
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My Nids
Battleworlds - 20% off everything & more!!
"Its a war game, not just top trumps." - Latro
It's not that simple...Originally Posted by Nicho
Don't like the price hike, don't buy the models - and pretty soon there's nobody left to play with. The prices are killing Games Workshop, no doubt about it. It's much, much harder these days to get a game than it used too. And those who're still around have started playing other games.
I too used to buy every codex and armybook they released. Why? Because I like the setting. Because I like reading about the world and the armies that fight in it. Without that, why on earth would I keep playing? There're other, and much better, games out there. Thus, not only am I no longer buying the books, I'm not buying the models or playing the game either.
My choice to no longer buy the books means much more to me than just not buying a codex - it's pretty much killed any interest I used to have in the game. So no, it's nowhere near that simple...
Big Blog of Everything (currently getting ready for Scale Model Addict's Big Spring Contest).
On the topic of run rate costs...
Let us say that the gaming cycle turns every five years, on average. Now, let's assume an army book is 30 pounds, the rules are 50 pounds, and that someone would need to purchase an average of 100 pounds of models and 20 pounds of supplies to update an army each time a new book comes out (assuming no real interest in moving in large amounts to the new models).
Thus, to play a single army with the absolute bare minimum investment possible (you are the guy with the old version non-optimized army and the eight year old paint jobs) you are looking at 200 pounds per five years, or forty pounds per year, or 3.33 pounds per month.
Now, let's assume to do an army correctly you are going to have maintenance costs to replace old models that get damaged / touch up old paint jobs / repair minis of about 50 pounds per year if you are playing actively. Let's also assume that you are going to actually modernize your armies instead of scraping by with the bare minimum, and crank your spend for a new codex up to 250 pounds at the current prices to get a solid selection of the new goodies. Now we are looking at 6.67 pounds per month.
Still not outrageous for a single army, but one can rapidly see why the people with large collections and multiple armies are starting to balk at the prices. After all, are you really going to blow 120 pounds per month on GW, and have it come in unexpected, blocky amounts because GW won't release info about their release schedule?
That's the first angle. The second angle is this: yes, GW wants to charge 30 pounds for a full color army codex. Is that reasonable or not? One method is the above run rate cost method (intrinsic value), which is likely what GW hopes people use. The other method is to compare it to other products (relative value); there, it's a total atrocity for GW. Partially because GW now offers only hardcovers (which many people regard as a needless expense and possibly a detriment because it makes the books harder to carry around), and possibly because they are still not competitive on that front (a hardcover privateer press book is both cheaper and longer, as well as being full color).
It's not unreasonable to make that comparison and shake your head at GW. If GW would continue releasing softcover codices for 30 bucks / 20ish pounds, I'd buy them. I'm not stepping up to a harder to carry book and paying more for less content. That's retarded. Inflation is running in the very low single digits; GW is just attempting to get people to pay more. It's perfectly reasonable to say no when a company does that.
Beyond all that, however, what's really puzzling is this: army books sell models. The net result of raising prices will be fewer model sales. Puzzling business decision all around.
I reckon we should start a facebook group where we encourage people to buy £20 of GW shares and then elect Reinholt as head of GW, so it will last forever !
There are literally tons of other gaming books out there that have significantly higher page count with a cheaper or equal price or the same page count with a lower cost. Wizards of the coast is the best example of this producing tons of Full color hard bound books of approximately the same size of the Army books but for $20 cheaper. They also have significantly more content in the way of new artwork and such. Part of the reason they are able to do this is by leveraging their large in-house design studio so they have people always on had to do the work.
I suppose the closest (release time) comparison would be the Mantic KoW rule book (including 8 full army lists) - 148pgs full colour hardback for £24.99, or the Chaos army list of 104pgs for £30. Approx 50% more for approx 20% less. Says it all really...
Member of J.A.D.E.DTrying to convince Warseer that GW are anything less than perfect is like trying to teach a horde of zombies that lettuce is a perfectly acceptable alternative to brains.
Lest we forget
Meh, I think it's highly likely that any money not spent on the books will instead be spent on the miniatures, leaving GW not much poorer. Insisting on proper books in that case just seems daft, as it could only serve to drive people away.
“There's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known.”
I wasn't aware GW had some sort if payment plan, working part time I do kinda find £30 can be very bank breaking if I want a social life of any kind, must just be me.
Warlord Games' Hail Caesar book is £30 too, but has 192 pages in full colour. And that gives you the rules for an entire game, not just one army.
As for 'cost per month', who calculates his life like that? I see a book that's vastly overpriced, and so won't buy it. Period. And if I would do the calculations, I'd quickly find that other books, again, offer better value for money while being enjoyable for a longer time.
But really, are the comparisons useful anymore? GW's 'Empire State Troops' are almost 3.5 times as expensive as the Perry Miniatures 'European Mercenaries' (which, frankly, are much better models too). We know that GW offers little value for money on many products (and the few that are still worth it, usually increase in price within a year). They're digging their own grave, and with a bigger spade than ever before.
Not buying the books is what I've done, Nicho. That's what everyone here has done recently. There are no warhammer tournaments, which used to run every month. It's really tough to find games. Instead there are warmachine tournaments every month, multiple games of it basically every day. My complaint is that GW lacks a business plan. Sixty dollars Canadian is ridiculous for a one hundred page book. They need people to look at international pricing, rather than trying to embargo countries where prices are silly. That's not a business plan. People have unfortunately started to realize it. I still like GW, but there's no one to play with. They've basically forced me to invest my gaming money in Privateer Press products. GW can do whatever it wants in terms of pricing, but it doesn't make it a good idea.
People who are desperate to find a way to justify a price.
EmperorNorton's Overabundance of Projects Log
2012
Minis bought: 363 - - - - - Minis painted: 373
2013
Minis bought: 308 - - - - - Minis painted: 66
On the other hand, I'm usually horrified when I calculate the daily cost of my computer.
“There's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known.”
Here's a perfect example of what grinds my gears.
You have a part time job. You actually think GW is sympathetic towards that? Do you actually think YOU are their client base? You also mention that you sometimes need to make a choice between real life and hobbies - well, welcome to the real world my friend.
I know a fellow that constantly complains about GW pricing and makes armies out of bit sprues (don't even get me started). All the while mind you, walking around with 2 packages of cigarettes in his hand ($25). That's a choice, and I respect that even if I don't agree with his "choice". He then, goes "home" to his parent's basement to stay up all hours of the evening complaining on the interwebs about how he can't afford GW product and showing of his Vampire Counts army completely made out of rib bits and crawling hands - with a price tag of $250.00.
TYPICALLY, and there are always exceptions, these are the people USUALLY complaining about the price of GW product.
I'll admit that sometimes I pick up a box and think "Wow, $60 for 3 Monstrous Cavalry. Ok, but I need 12....) I get it, I'm not trying to defend GW. I also get that if I can't afford it then I don't get to play with the other kids. I'm also surrounded by guys that spend $18,000 on a Snomobile that they'll use 3 times a year. A boat ($42,000) that was used 4 times this summer and my close friend that has a single golf club that cost as much as a well painted army (didn't help my game at all
). I should mention that I get rides on the previously mentioned toys as I can't afford them myself. I used to play Magic the Gathering and simply quit because every 3 months I was buying more binders to hold cards that would be worthless - in 3 months. Come over to my house and see my shelves absolutely covered in D&D books, figs and gaming aids. Man, must be thousands of dollars worth - and I haven't played the game seriously in 10 years.
Good God people, it's as simple as this; GW sells product to people that can and will afford it. If your complaining about your toys being too expensive then maybe pick different toys. It's aggravating to read people complaining between mouthfulls of crisps that they'd LOVE to finish their armies *munch -munch*, but can't afford *crunch - munch* to keep their hobby standards up *crunch-slurp* and maintain presence down at the local pub.
See, that's MY perspective. A gamer that can SOMETIMES afford to set aside money to fill my shelves with more toys.
*edit* I also found it beautiful that after I posted I noticed my sig.
"IMHO the very definition of a Hobby is that it takes more time and costs more than one can justify. And yet we continue." - kendoka
There are lots of us that COULD afford the prices if we wanted, but don't feel like we get value for our money. I have about $100 I can spend every month on miniatures. I feel like that money goes way further buying for Privateer Press, Wyrd Miniatures, or Spartan Games. Simple as that.Here's a perfect example of what grinds my gears.
You have a part time job. You actually think GW is sympathetic towards that? Do you actually think YOU are their client base? You also mention that you sometimes need to make a choice between real life and hobbies - well, welcome to the real world my friend.
I know a fellow that constantly complains about GW pricing and makes armies out of bit sprues (don't even get me started). All the while mind you, walking around with 2 packages of cigarettes in his hand ($25). That's a choice, and I respect that even if I don't agree with his "choice". He then, goes "home" to his parent's basement to stay up all hours of the evening complaining on the interwebs about how he can't afford GW product and showing of his Vampire Counts army completely made out of rib bits and crawling hands - with a price tag of $250.00.
TYPICALLY, and there are always exceptions, these are the people USUALLY complaining about the price of GW product.
I'll admit that sometimes I pick up a box and think "Wow, $60 for 3 Monstrous Cavalry. Ok, but I need 12....
Good God people, it's as simple as this; GW sells product to people that can and will afford it. If your complaining about your toys being too expensive then maybe pick different toys. It's aggravating to read people complaining between mouthfulls of crisps that they'd LOVE to finish their armies *munch -munch*, but can't afford *crunch - munch* to keep their hobby standards up *crunch-slurp* and maintain presence down at the local pub.
See, that's MY perspective. A gamer that can SOMETIMES afford to set aside money to fill my shelves with more toys.
*edit* I also found it beautiful that after I posted I noticed my sig.
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
Those codices/armybooks are now ridiculous prices. Spartan sell a 120 page, full colour, hardback campaign book for £20- and plenty of web stores will have it at 10-15% off .
The core rules-£16, and the same 10-15% off, with the army lists for most factions in it. If we compare that to 6th ed 40k, you're paying that much for an A5 rulebook from the starter set...
It doesn't help if you buy a starter set for a country, you get the figures at a discount, and get an A5 rule booklet for your fleet.
That's just an example at random. Spartan are not perfect- packaging models in numbers that don't line up with how many you'll want in a unit, and rules editing as bad as GW- but about 1000 times better at changing things to fix the problems.
Occasionally accused of being helpful and constructive.
OneringBook to rule them all, oneringplace to find them, OneringCodex to bring them all, and in theDarknessfuture bind them. Time for the unified Marine Codex.
In response to Squalie - I think you'll find that the reason people make the effort to come here and complain is that, in most cases, they would still like to buy GW's stuff but recent price hikes have taken it beyond their reach. Hence the frustration and disbelief that a company that makes grown-ups' toys has become such an aggressive, faceless company and has clearly decided there is no need for balance in their approach. In short, they have been happy to insult their once-loyal customers and if you feel insulted chances are you're going to want to have your say. Moaning at people who moan misses the point, and in fact if you go over this thread a lot of the crtiticism has been highly constructive.
Also, as others have pointed out, if GW are losing loyal customers (reluctant as I am to reducing people to that status) then you suffer because the games will become less mainstream. Part of the appeal of GW has, for a long time, been the fact that if you are in to it then the chances are you know other people who participate in it as well. Now there are many of us who merely like it (to varying degrees), rather than participate in it. The bad news for GW is that there are now, at last, a couple of genuine contenders for the crown. Their aggressive ways and creative stagnation are only going to do them harm in the long run.
Hmm if a box of space marines costs £55 are you really going to be saying, "Well, since I can use it forever, it's practically free!"? I really hope you people have more sense than that. Hell, that way you could justify buying almost anything.
Models bought in 2013 - 66
Models completed in 2013 - 15
\m/ Metalhead of WarSeer \m/
But that IS a point that can't be compared to some other hobbies. I certainly don't mean forever, but many assume dollar value is simply the act of paying for something and then on the way home asking if the price was "fair". Sometimes it doesn't end there. After you've enjoyed (maybe) painting it and having many, many games with said product ask yourself that question again. It will completely baffle me to the end of my days that some consider this hobby expensive. You can buy a previously loved army for $150 if you look hard enough and with some glue, paint and inspiration EASILY get your moneys worth. Heck, even you pieced an army out new it simply isn't that expensive in the world of hobbies. Feeling like something is expensive is all relative. If you feel it is, it's possible that the problem isn't the cost of the product, but the consumers financial status. I have no doubt that many here will complain about the cost of GW plastic and then spend money every month on absolutely frivolous items that they have long forgotten about and left at the back of the closet. Read my previous post for examples that absolutely bury the cost of plastic toys. I'm not defending GW, so let's make that clear. My point is what choice do you have? Drink the cool-aid or decide on something else. <-- every hobby is the exact same way. If you do decide on something else, it's a completely egocentric view to think that you really affect the bottom line of GW in any significant way.
Also, comparing GW to other smaller companies is pointless. The business structure is so vastly different, it's akin to comparing General Motors to a few lads building a buggy in their garage. I really don't care how they run their business - that's their business. What I do care about is being able to play this game that I've enjoyed for over 15 years. That is literally all I expect out of this company. Gah, now I'm rambling.... I KNEW I shouldn't have touched my keyboard!
"IMHO the very definition of a Hobby is that it takes more time and costs more than one can justify. And yet we continue." - kendoka
Thats the amazing thing about the internet, do like to express the opinion, however we thing that some people feel they are the opinion police, whats all the trash about thinking I am the client base? seriously? you don't know me, so start talking to me like you do. Welcome to the real world? have I been living in never never land for the past 30years or something? lol, muppet.
This doesn't address the relative value argument, however. Let's say we agree that we are going to be miniatures gamers. Why should I pick GW over Privateer?
This is the problem GW is having; I do not think the issue is that GW is too expensive in isolation. I think the issue is that GW is too expensive in comparison to the competition. The bottom line is that GW is not expensive compared to snowmobiles, or golfing, or hang gliding, or surfing, or racing automobiles. It's that it's too expensive compared to other companies which do the exact same thing.
What is your argument for why GW should be more expensive than Privateer, Battlefront, Malifaux, Mantic, and Infinity? To name a few.
You are rambling, and your statement is completely incorrect, to be blunt. This is precisely the sort of comparison that should be occurring. As a general rule, larger companies which are well run will have the following profile compared to smaller competitors (and this is large relative to the competition, not large overall, as in the grand scheme of things, GW is still a tiny company and their competitors are even more tiny):Also, comparing GW to other smaller companies is pointless. The business structure is so vastly different, it's akin to comparing General Motors to a few lads building a buggy in their garage. I really don't care how they run their business - that's their business. What I do care about is being able to play this game that I've enjoyed for over 15 years. That is literally all I expect out of this company. Gah, now I'm rambling.... I KNEW I shouldn't have touched my keyboard!
1 - Economies of scale that give them a cost advantage over smaller firms
2 - Greater flexibility to re-assign work across the scope of the firm, allowing them to maintain a more stable business profile
3 - Easier access to capital, allowing more consistent expansion and capital expenditure
4 - Slower reaction time because of established costs, allowing the smaller firms to be more nimble when responding to market developments
Poorly run large companies will also demonstrate significant legacy costs (like the pension issues that faced GM, as an example) due to past poor decisions, and inertia which can paralyze them in the face of change.
So GW, compared to Privateer etc., should be able to have lower prices (they have greater economies of scale)! They should also be more able to maintain a consistent and efficient release schedule compared to their competitors.
This is why people often get so angry with GW - they are a very poorly run business, when push comes to shove. It's like someone wrote up a memo on how to screw up the company permanently, and someone in management accidentally thought it was their business plan and they are now aggressively pursuing it. I mean, short of mailing customers cow turds instead of models (I also might prefer a cow **** to a white dwarf at this point), they are running out of ways to irritate paying customers.
Last edited by Reinholt; 23-09-2012 at 16:12.
I reckon we should start a facebook group where we encourage people to buy £20 of GW shares and then elect Reinholt as head of GW, so it will last forever !
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