Fair enough, that is a decision everyone is entitled to make themselves, and it doesn't equate to GW products being overpriced. Personally I want an army that doesn't look like crap so that rules out Mantic (except, to be fair, the Forgefathers which look nice) and as I absolutely love Eldar I have no where else to go.
Originally Posted by jack da greenskin
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
Maybe the Asterians will end up piquing your interest. We'll see. I'm pretty sure they don't plan on going for exactly the same aesthetic as they did with the elves.
I'm hoping so, I love using other models for variety in my WFB armies but with Eldar it is virtually impossible. My brother has a fantastic IG army where the only GW bits are the vehicles and lasguns. Variety = good.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
Completely agree and if you're happy to pay the GW prices for the product you want, that's value for money, and IMO, your purchase is entirely justified.
You're obviously not an idiot. I've seen it mentioned several times you have 60k of eldar, more of dark eldar and other stuff, so you're an experienced hobbyist. What annoys me though, is I know for a fact that some people, if in your position, wouldn't spend £8 on a chapter house farseer, because they have the deluded belief that because it isnt GW, it isnt worth looking at. I have no idea if you've bought one or not, but I'd guarentee you put more thought into whether to buy one than these "friends" of mine.
I find it impossible to accept the line of reasoning that GW products are not overpriced, because they are good value for money, because no other manufacturer makes GW products quite as well as GW, and therefore they arent to be looked at or considered.
Oh, and some of the forgefathers look awesome. The concept art is top. Some of the models don't look amazing though :/
I have all the CHS Eldar*.To me it is less about brand loyalty and more about the product. GW produces miniatures I want at a price I consider reasonable. If another company produces an aesthetically compatible, quality product I will also buy it.
Well I would say GW models are expensive, as most hobbies are, and some are overpriced (Orcs and other horde armies shouldn't be paying 15-18 pounds for ten models). In fact some of my favourite plastic models the Dire Avengers, are starting to look overpriced when compared to the DE plastics. But on the whole I think GW offers value for money and is suitably priced.
*My not-a-striking scorpion exarch is on the way.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
I could give you way more than a "handful" of examples. If a game nets me less than 10 hours of enjoyment, then I say it's a badly made game I'm not getting good value for.
That's one console. I don't pay an extra penny to play games online on my computer or Playstation. Personally I don't play online much, and I never think it's an excuse for a woefully short game, but discounting the online aspect in this comparison would be like discounting playing Warhammer games with friends.They only start to last longer if you are into the online multiplayer, and in the case of xbox at least, you must pay an additional cost for the online subscription, and it will cease as soon as Microsoft decides to cut support.
I don't think anyone's under the delusion that game prices drop out of good will. But the fact still remains that they do, while GW prices just keep on rising, often for no reason.There is a large degree of competition on shop shelves for space. These shops wish to have their older stock removed to make way for newer more profitable items. That is why the price goes down. It is not out of generosity. This is capitalism.
Nonsense. I have games I have gone back to time and time again, and will continue to do so. The same applies to books, CDs, movies and plenty of hobbies like Magic the Gathering. The enjoyment someone can get from these can be just as "unlimited" as with their toy soldiers.The number of hours of entertainment that can be extracted from GW miniatures (and any wargame to be honest) is unlimited. The same can not be said of similar hobbies such as Magic the Gathering or even video gaming.
And indeed, that's precisely while "length of enjoyment" isn't really much of an arguing factor, because it's so subjective and varies so much from person to person.
Last edited by Tymell; 04-09-2011 at 15:25.
When did GW release something? Was it plastic or metal? Who sculpted it? Come find out:Fantasy, 40K, LOTR, BFG, Blood Bowl, Epic, Inquisitor, Man O' War, Mordheim, Necromunda & Warmaster
What are you even talking about? If you play those games on easy then maybe it's 10 hours. But games have multiple difficulties and you certainly don't plop in a halo game set it to legendary on launch night and beat it in 10hrs unless you are some sort of super mlg player.Regardless of the handful of examples to the contrary, most video games don't last people more than 10 hours at most. This includes games such as the Halo series, Modern Warfare series, and the Gears of War series. Some of the most successfull games ever released. They only start to last longer if you are into the online multiplayer, and in the case of xbox at least, you must pay an additional cost for the online subscription, and it will cease as soon as Microsoft decides to cut support.
And there's no way you can discount online multiplayer, which is the selling point of these games. To do so is like the above poster said, the same as discounting playing warhammer with other people.
And anyway for all the games that you mentioned, I played halo 3 multiple times a week with my friends for more than 2 straight years and only stopped when Modern Warfare 2 came out, which we played constantly until Reach came out. Which we did stop playing regularly, because like 8th edition warhammer, someone thought it would be a good idea to make the game more random with OP armor abilities.
And as for not being able to play the games when microsoft stops supporting them, halo 2 was supported on Live for 6 years. 7th edition warhammer existed and was supported for 4 years.
Mircosoft wins again.
Oh and for everyone who continues to mock Mantic minis by just claiming they are crap and ugly and not worth it like it's the truth because you keep saying it. Well, I hope you enjoy your razargor's, your tonka truck ogres and your female models that look like men, which GW routinely puts out and you pay a premium for. Just don't let the sun shine on them if they are made out of finecast and ignore the missing parts of the sculpt.
Last edited by Shimmergloom; 04-09-2011 at 15:33.
I logged well over 3000 hours on WoW before I quit, and it still cost me less than my tau army.
I'm sure someone could theoretically get unlimited enjoyment from a single space marine model. But most people will find it gets stagnant after awhile and either need to get more models or a new force / game. Other games like dystopian wars let me get an entire army for same $ as 50pts of goblins. That is where other companies provide better value and time for money for me.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
Mantic miniatures are in my opinion misproportioned, crude, uninspired and downright ugly in some cases (Dwarfs). This is my opinion, I've never claimed it is anything otherwise as many Mantic supported I've discussed it with on this very forum will tell you.
I'd love to know why you think this would suddenly change just because GW produce some poor sculpts too.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
Another point in the whole value for money argument is that, for my anyway, the actual value isn't the real stinging point, it's how it keeps decreasing. Every year we are getting less and less value for money, and that isn't true (to anything like the same degree) for anything else I buy.
When did GW release something? Was it plastic or metal? Who sculpted it? Come find out:Fantasy, 40K, LOTR, BFG, Blood Bowl, Epic, Inquisitor, Man O' War, Mordheim, Necromunda & Warmaster
I'm sure the Dwarfs think the same of you.
EmperorNorton's Overabundance of Projects Log
2012
Minis bought: 363 - - - - - Minis painted: 373
2013
Minis bought: 407 - - - - - Minis painted: 66
Just to weigh in on the Mantic argument like any miniatures range they have good and bad models.
The zombies and the current Orc range they have done in my opinion are very nice. The casting is good and I am very happy with the way they paint up. Poses are a little limited they ideally could do with at least another 4 body types. I saw the orcs at this years ETC and they were a really nice range. If I hadn't already got a GW orc army and wanted to start an Orc army then I think these would make a wonderful alternative.
Avatars of war has release a wonderful slayer plastic set which in my opinion compares well to the higher end GW sets. Which to me shows that quality and value in price terms can be compatible. 20 figures for 22 pounds is good value. 10 for 25 isn't. For me personally I think 1.50 a model is the most you can reasonable charge for units today. I know GW charge far more but if this years ETC was representative of players buying habits then over 50% had one or more non GW mOdel units. With Mantic making up a very high percentage of those non GW units.
Dude, not cool.I'm sure the Dwarfs think the same of you.
We may disagree with her but that's no reason to get personal.
I happen to think the Mantic undead are top-notch, superior to GW's efforts in all respects save the characters (which are hideous); for the Dwarfs, I'm as tired of the "Fat dwarf" type as I am of the "Scottish dwarf" so I was glad to see some more combat-fit dwarfs in plastic.
I find it quite interesting with people comparing Video Games to Table Top Wargaming...
I've often found that those that fling out the 'hours played' are not your 'norm'. There's a bit of a sterotype that kids and so forth spend days upon days glued to the television, computer, yadda yadda, but what with so many parents actively trying to get the kids out into the real world, for sporting or social activities, I don't personally but the square eye culture that we're lead to believe (because it's been a myth for the last 20 years!)
I mean if you look at AGCs statement of:
It's purely anaedoctal; there's no evidence to it (and I doubt we will ever get it consider how inconsistant facts and figures are in the video gaming world). But often we hear only of those people who do spend excessive amounts of time on games, does someone like AGC represent the constant run-of-the-mill gamer?I've never met anyone who plays a game to completion and never plays it again.
If we're going by pure statements, I've got thousands of computer games from all different consoles/computers/eras. I've completed possibly 10? And those games that I have completed, I've never gone back to. I'm not personally sure why I would - they're done. I've only tended to find the people who go, say, back into the same game on a different difficulty setting are just your more enthusied gamers, the same as the more enthusiastic hobbyists around us who generate up storylines and backgrounds for their armies and models.
What is intriguing about somewhere like Warseer though is this constant push for the gaming, which is why I think Video Games as a comparison are odd. The rules, the set ups, the stats, yadda yadda. I think, and this is simply what I view, from my eyes, that this is possibly the most 'Game' focused place of all the Wargaming Table Top forums I know. More so if you look at the threads around here that speak of improving GW or changing the direction, it always mentions rules, play testing, clearing things up. Which is sort of weird because alot of Video Games that come out frankly aren't up to scratch initially and yet you pay top dollar for them.
For me it's a question of, is this hobby about actual Wargaming? And honestly - my view is no. And I'm a pretty hefty gamer, amusingly. Painting and building are often a chore to the main thing (although i'm not too shabby at either of those aspects).
My experience of visiting 80+ GWs over the years has at least taught me that people spend a good 70% of their time building up, painting, preparing, developing, their armies. At a minimum. And sure that's just a random percentage to some, but if that';s what it looks and feels like in, arguably, one of the most 'Pro' places to engage with your hobby, then surely it explains why GW is using the ability to tout out the models in a gaming system as just a driver and nothing more? It's just an outreach to generate social contact, which is something parents like because they have no interest in their kinds spending hours doing something 'non substantial', like computer gaming.
The question next from there then is 'So why are certain models so expensive' - and the answer is simple. GW has created a reason behind why. Whether that reason holds water or not in your eyes does not matter. The fact they have generated one is enough for them to put a price upon it.
I personally find the GW model prices acceptable and I pay them without question, mainly because I like the models, but also because I don't find much else on the market that compares to the aestestic, construction, etc. The problem with something like a pricing thread though in my eyes is we try and put a 'Right or Wrong' value on something that is entirely subjective and personal to each individual person (because of circumstance, feelings, understanding, etc.)
Most hobbies are also something we emotionally attach ourselves too and so when someone questions something we find is potentially offensive to our personal tastes that can feel painful. It's also very obvious certain members are pretty darn bitter about various affairs (whether they're again, in the right or wrong) and so resort to just giving us posts that frankly make me want to physically sigh - life is too short to be screaming about toy soldiers
I do actually though approve of at least the discussion in the last few pages - it's nice to see something reasonable on the GW General sub forum, but I don't quite grasp why we're constantly trying to better each other in terms of what we think. Especially when we have no control over something =x
On a side note to the rules driving sales thing; yeah, obviously they do to a point. Thats undisputed. But every model you've bought can (generally) be used in a game, if you should wish to play. Whether that is 'competitive' or not, is irrelevant. The 'competitive' nature of Wargaming is a silly concept either way (and I'm also a tournament player
Responding finally to one other post:
@FabrictatorGeneral
I buy armies in bulk but only boxes as I go along. Sometimes I get bored of said army before I've built, made, finished it all. This could stretch over, say 2 years even (and it has done for one certain space marine force and even for parts of my Dark Eldar), so I was able to return them, lose no money from it, and get other kits I wanted. In terms of location of a GW and returning old product? I live in Britain - so obviously I need make no more comment there, but I've returned a white box of Carnival models from Mordheim and got an exchange with no questions asked. Heck, I asked to turn 3 of my old Landspeeders (with the old metal weapons) into Vouchers to then spend back in then, my local store, and was able to do so without question nor problem.Why buy it in the first place if your not going to use it instead of holding on to it while waiting for the '
Ah, yes, because giving an account of the feeling of mythological creatures made out of plastic is obviously serious, a fact that is stressed by the use of a smiley face, widely renowned as a sign for graveness and severity.
EmperorNorton's Overabundance of Projects Log
2012
Minis bought: 363 - - - - - Minis painted: 373
2013
Minis bought: 407 - - - - - Minis painted: 66
Well, I prefer to stay away from anything that could be taken as a personal insult, especially an ugly joke aimed at a woman.
Can I just clarify something else with everybody. We can all list games we have spent many hours playing. It doesn't disprove the point that most games people buy don't get played nearly enough to make them particularly favourable in terms of sheer number of hours of entertainment. For the same reason that with DVD's I could easily say "DVD's are totally worth their price because I have watched my DVD of Ace Venture : Pet Detective at least 30 times", even though most of my DVD's have only been watched an average of 4 times. The same is true of games, music, and all forms of entertainment.
My original point, which seems to have gotten lost, was that compared to other seemingly accepted forms of entertainment, such as video gaming, not only is Fantasy or 40k cheaper typically to get into and stay immersed in, but provides just as many hours of entertainment. Therefore, the money expended per hour of entertainment is lower, and thus favourable. It is only comparisons within the hobby that make GW seem poor value, and even then in many cases the differences are explainable. Some people just seem to like being angry about their miniatures.
Really? Portal takes most people about 4 hours to complete. Is Portal a bad game? LA Noire can be technically completed in 10 hours. Is that a bad game?I could give you way more than a "handful" of examples. If a game nets me less than 10 hours of enjoyment, then I say it's a badly made game I'm not getting good value for.
You do pay for your internet I presume?That's one console. I don't pay an extra penny to play games online on my computer or Playstation.
For me, I always play on the hard difficulty. Even normal difficulty is just too easy these days. Older games were much harder to finish. Halo 3 took me about 12 hours on the hard difficulty. Modern Warfare 2 took me about 9 hours. Gears of War 2 about 15. These are not particularly time intensive games, and are notorious for having short single player modes. And the fact that you can play multiplayer means nothing if you don't want to, or if you're a young gamer who doesn't have the leet mad sick skills necessary to survive online FPS gaming. Multiplayer is also cheaper to design, so they still charge you more for less. Or do really think that Unreal Tournament took as much time and effort to make as the original Unreal? There was a time when games were developed for their single player, rather than the other way around.What are you even talking about? If you play those games on easy then maybe it's 10 hours. But games have multiple difficulties and you certainly don't plop in a halo game set it to legendary on launch night and beat it in 10hrs unless you are some sort of super mlg player.
Neither is intrinsically a multiplayer game, but you DO get far many more hours of enjoyment out of building and painting an army than you do out of completing most modern single player games.And there's no way you can discount online multiplayer, which is the selling point of these games. To do so is like the above poster said, the same as discounting playing warhammer with other people.
Sure. You're mad for Halo 3. I fail to see how that is different for someone mad about Vampire Counts, for example. Apart from the obvious fact that the latter is cheaper.And anyway for all the games that you mentioned, I played halo 3 multiple times a week with my friends for more than 2 straight years and only stopped when Modern Warfare 2 came out, which we played constantly until Reach came out. Which we did stop playing regularly, because like 8th edition warhammer, someone thought it would be a good idea to make the game more random with OP armor abilities.
No. Microsoft cut off forever any ability of anyone to play online Halo 2 using their xbox. GW never stopped you playing 7th edition, and never can. Only you stopped you playing 7th edition.And as for not being able to play the games when microsoft stops supporting them, halo 2 was supported on Live for 6 years. 7th edition warhammer existed and was supported for 4 years.
Mircosoft wins again.
GW wins.
I don't think Mantic's stuff is crap. Just not as good as most GW stuff I'm interested in. I actually like their skeletons but prefer GW's, whilst I think Mantic's Ghouls are superior. However I don't want unusually short models in my army.Oh and for everyone who continues to mock Mantic minis by just claiming they are crap and ugly and not worth it like it's the truth because you keep saying it. Well, I hope you enjoy your razargor's, your tonka truck ogres and your female models that look like men, which GW routinely puts out and you pay a premium for. Just don't let the sun shine on them if they are made out of finecast and ignore the missing parts of the sculpt.
And I think you confuse detail with aesthetic. You don't like the look of some GW stuff. That doesn't mean it isn't still more detailed.
It was an obvious joke from the Mantic journal which I think was hilarious!! But he should have mentioned it in spoilers or something, because after reading your post I have to agree you could find it offensive if you don't know Mantic dwarves lore.
Mantic Miniatures are objectively more detailed than any GW counterpart. This is fact, except for three things.
The new High Elves as well as the plastic characters.
And
Every new GW Miniature (Max 3 years old) Mantic has no counterpart for up until today.
Last edited by Max Jet; 04-09-2011 at 23:41.
Yes.
If a video game is only ten hours long, then it is a bad value for my money to pay $60 for it.
I will never claim that every video game made is a better value for your money. I am saying that there are video games out there that I like to play which competes with GW for my money.
Although in some cases GW is getting my money there too. Seeing as I bought all the Dawn of War games, W:AoR, Kill Team, and pre-ordered Space Marine.
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
That happens to the best of us. If I took some pics of my man-cave/computer/painting room you would see the littered carcuses of many failed projects that I enthusiastically worked on until I got bored with it. Funny thing about that though, it only seems to be GW products that that happens with for me.
I have heaps of gundam models, all assembled and on display. I have a USMC Marine Expaditionary Unit ( known as a MEU or myuu) with metal figgies that I have cleaned up and quite a feel vehicle's.
I had a sister of battle army that I sold because I didn't like the rules comming out for it. I could I kept it just to play with a few friends but honestly the game and company don't interest me anymore.
BTW you where very lucky with your returns. When I worked there the policy was if it's not on the shelf then we don't take it in for cash exchange. If you where someone the store knew well, we would give you store credit for it. One more question, how long ago did you do these returns ?
What I was trying to get at ( im sorry for the wall o text) is that while we all make purchises that we regret latter or don't have a use for, I can't see anyone purpicely buying GW stuff just to return at a latter date for more money.
Proud member of J.A.D.E.D. thanks Harry
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