Games Workshop Pricing Feedback Thread

[shelfunit.]

What you've said is fair, however do remember it's optional. I think it's a credit to the Design Studio that us Gamers do go nuts for shiny new toys, to the point where buying them feels compulsory!

This can be very true, but what often happens is that the "shiny new toys" often happen to be very good in game, whilst the old guard tend to end up relatively worse off rules/points wise - not a bad selling tactic, but at the same time a bit irritating. With the Empire though (personally) I think the (new) models are good enough to sell by themselves.

For me, the prices aren't much of a concern. I'll get maybe a new army every year, and most of what I have is unpainted. When I do get round to painting an army, the amount of time I spend indulging in this hobby gives me what I consider terrific value for money. For instance, I like a drink me, and a trip to the pub, works out at around £24.15 a visit, as 7 pints then it's home time! That too is value for money, to me, because I enjoy myself, and get to hang out with my friends. But my GW stuff is of a higher order for my tastes because it's still there years later!

It does have a high start up cost, but with an appropriate guiding hand, it's worth the investment. I worked for GW up until about 18 months ago, and the training for us shop mooks is all about doing recruitment properly, and getting as many people as possible involved. Which the opposite to what many claim! (Grab the money and run is not the way!) Parents and newbies are happy to spend the money, because it's bloody good fun collecting, building, painting and playing!

See, the thing is many wargamers have exactly the same thoughts as you do, but about their own game company(ies) of choice - the difference is they will be paying a fraction of the cost as those who shop with GW. The whole point of complaining about GW's prices is les howexpensive they actually are and more that they are relatively vastly over priced compared to their competitors, despite having a vast advantage of ecomony of scale over them. You could argue about quality, but the models GW churn out are objectively of no high quality than other manufacturers. Subjectively you can argue they are better, but that is just opinion. I am also reluctant to accept the "perceived" quality argument, as that deals both with subjectivity and generally draws out the "well, I love the background and setting" argument (I too like the background). This is fine, but to suggest that the background - of which the majority of has been in place for 20+ years - is worth some sort of premium I find strange.

[f2k]

What you've said is fair, however do remember it's optional. I think it's a credit to the Design Studio that us Gamers do go nuts for shiny new toys, to the point where buying them feels compulsory!

For me, the prices aren't much of a concern. I'll get maybe a new army every year, and most of what I have is unpainted. When I do get round to painting an army, the amount of time I spend indulging in this hobby gives me what I consider terrific value for money. For instance, I like a drink me, and a trip to the pub, works out at around £24.15 a visit, as 7 pints then it's home time! That too is value for money, to me, because I enjoy myself, and get to hang out with my friends. But my GW stuff is of a higher order for my tastes because it's still there years later!

It does have a high start up cost, but with an appropriate guiding hand, it's worth the investment. I worked for GW up until about 18 months ago, and the training for us shop mooks is all about doing recruitment properly, and getting as many people as possible involved. Which the opposite to what many claim! (Grab the money and run is not the way!) Parents and newbies are happy to spend the money, because it's bloody good fun collecting, building, painting and playing!

Sorry, but I pretty much disagree with you on all points.

I don’t know what kind of job you have, but I, even with a Master’s Degree in Computer Science and a fairly good job, am balking at the price. Not that I couldn’t afford a new army each year, but I simply cannot see myself spending that kind of money anymore. Yes, you get to spend a lot of time painting a playing, but so do you with games like Flames of War, Malifaux, WarMachine etc. Remember that it’s not just a matter of time-for-money, it’s also a matter of value-per-model...

Anyway...

New rulebooks are certainly not optional unless you’re playing with a close-knit group of friends who, for some reason, don’t want to move on to new rules. As soon as you start doing pickup games or tournaments you need those new, shiny, and hugely expensive books.

Nor are new models optional. At least, not if you want to remain competitive. Games Workshop seems to have developed a nasty way of tweaking the rules to bring new units to the front...

As for getting new armies and the start-up cost... In my experience, freelancing in two local hobby stores, parents were very hesitant about getting their kids into this game due to the cost. And the steady decline in unit-sales seems to confirm this.

Again, Games Workshop’s model only works where they can maintain a monopoly. Once the newbs and parents are exposed to alternatives, that initial sale become much harder. At least, in my experience...

And yes, Games Workshop do churn’n’burn – they even said so themselves. Could someone please help me out here: what was the original source of that?

In fact, I would say that their entire organisation and sales methods are designed towards pushing that initial sale as hard as possible, and then drop the veterans as soon as that’s done. Apocalypse might be seen as an attempt at catering to veterans but, in truth, it’s far more about selling more and bigger units than about the veterans.

Where’re the Outriders? Where’s the bitz-service? Where’s the hobby articles?

[Mr Ogre]

Hate to say it dude, but you're flat out wrong.

Sure, if that parent thinks it's just expensive airfix, you have a point. Which is why the training revolves around showing off the other aspects of the hobby, including things like mental arithmatic(sp?) writing, critical thinking, patience etc. You know, all those things that are of great benefit to young kids. At that point, price becomes immaterial to most parents. Will some kids just have oodles of cash chucked at them? Yup. Does any parent buy stuff completely under duress? Ocassionally. Some parents just don't approve of the hobby itself, nothing can be done.

But the churn and burn? Taken out of context. Yes, there is a high drop out rate. What do you expect? You're getting kids in their early (even pre) teens. They changed. They grow up. They start noticing and taking an interest in girls, sport, computer games etc. If a kids gonna leave, a kids gonna leave. But generally, they come back. When I worked there, I could guarantee a lapsed gamer would drop in at least once a week, just for a nose around, and a bit of reminiscing. At least 50% of them would walk out with a purchase. Usually the latest white dwarf, quite often paints and brushes.

As for alternatives. Never worked in a non-GW store, so I'll leave that one out. And GW's model? Not quite what you're making out. I know it irritates some, but to say there is a GW Hobby is fairly accurate. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer who can supply *everything* you need to fully indulge in the hobby. Boards, terrain, how to books, paints, rules, models, dice, flock, tools....you name it, they sell it. Ergo, you can do the full gaming Hobby without ever going outside of a GW Store. With that, it's dead easy to build up brand loyalty.

Now, regarding the initial thing about value and that. Remember, it's a personal thing. I specifically said [i]I[/] find it great value. If you don't, you don't. Not gonna say you're wrong here. As for job, I don't get paid much above minimum wage, but Hobbywise, it's just GW stuff really. Once the bills are paid and the cupboards are stocked, I have around £300.00 a month kicking about. Not a massive amount due to socialising and DVDs and that, but more than enough for me to get a couple of units every month should I wish.

Rulebooks. Are you really telling me that you're so hard up that you can't afford a new rulebook and Codex/Army book every couple of years? Really? Honestly? Seriously? The bbooks aren't what I'd describe as 'hugely expensive' either. Sure, they're not cheap, but then printing isn't cheap either, unless you're doing a massive run regularly.

[paddyalexander]

Sure, if that parent thinks it's just expensive airfix, you have a point. Which is why the training revolves around showing off the other aspects of the hobby, including things like mental arithmatic(sp?) writing, critical thinking, patience etc. You know, all those things that are of great benefit to young kids. At that point, price becomes immaterial to most parents. Will some kids just have oodles of cash chucked at them? Yup. Does any parent buy stuff completely under duress? Ocassionally. Some parents just don't approve of the hobby itself, nothing can be done.

But the churn and burn? Taken out of context. Yes, there is a high drop out rate. What do you expect? You're getting kids in their early (even pre) teens. They changed. They grow up. They start noticing and taking an interest in girls, sport, computer games etc. If a kids gonna leave, a kids gonna leave. But generally, they come back. When I worked there, I could guarantee a lapsed gamer would drop in at least once a week, just for a nose around, and a bit of reminiscing. At least 50% of them would walk out with a purchase. Usually the latest white dwarf, quite often paints and brushes.

In any gaming store that carries a broad range of products gwPLC doesn't look great in the eyes of a pairent or decerning customer. Telling little timmys' mom that after buying a €50-60 rulebook, a €30+ codex & an €80-90 "starter box" that she'll still need to spend another €150-200 just to have a fieldable army is pretty funny in inviroments where a Warmachine starter box (that comes with all of the rules that you need to play the game with the contents) is sitting on the shelf for €50. Or Malifaux with a €30=40 starter box (rules for models included) and either an €8-10 mini-book or a €20 big rulebook. Or Dystopian Wars with a purchase of around €80 for a starter set (contains all of the rules for contained models and templates for the game) and rule book.

Sure little Timmy can play 40k at small points levels but the rule don't scale down well, most armies will suffer and Timmy will get bored and frustrated at the amount of time it will take him to build up something that is even close to a playable force and then proberbly leave the hobby for good. If his only experience was trough a gwPLC Hobby Store then he will never have known of the possibilities that are out there. Instead gwPLC have made their few hundred Euros and wargaming has lost a potential hobbiest/gamer forever.

When they can get all of the benifits of wargaming you listed with products from those other companies at a fraction of the cost of doing so with gwPLC don't you think thats a problem. Sure they have their dedicated shops but outside of the UK they are spread way too thin to have an impact. Most good game stores carry hobby supplies from Privateer (who also do the "complete hobby package"), Army Painter, Woodland Scenics and Gale Force 9. The first time I saw a bag of gwPLC brand flock it was on a rack next to Woodland Scenics brand that had double the quantity for 2/3s the cost. Heaven Forebid that Timmy or one of his friends or his pairents decide to do 10 seconds of research on the internet.

There are a lot of games out there whose models come with the rules on a card. So all you need to own is the core rulebook, which in many cases is available in some form for free online. Or are available in both hardback & softback.

TL;DR version is that I strongly disagree with every justification you've raised for gwPLCs pricing. Your reasoning only works if gwPLC existed in a complete vacum and the internet did not exist.

[Mr Ogre]

I think you're crediting the internet with too much influence. Sure, established gamers use it...newb generally do not.

Kids tend to play whatever the other kids are playing. So true, if the local scene prefers Malifaux or Warmachine, those games will continue to do well. But no amount 'but this one is cheaper' will change any game from being top dog amongst the kids.

But, like I said, I don't have experience of non-GW stores, so I freely admit my view is less than wide. Doesn't change my points being valid. Value is down to the individual, and parents tend to find GW pretty good value.

[f2k]

Hate to say it dude, but you're flat out wrong.

Sure, if that parent thinks it's just expensive airfix, you have a point. Which is why the training revolves around showing off the other aspects of the hobby, including things like mental arithmatic(sp?) writing, critical thinking, patience etc. You know, all those things that are of great benefit to young kids. At that point, price becomes immaterial to most parents. Will some kids just have oodles of cash chucked at them? Yup. Does any parent buy stuff completely under duress? Ocassionally. Some parents just don't approve of the hobby itself, nothing can be done.

Man, can you really say that with a straight face?

I mean: they even removed modifiers from 40K because it was too complicated.

Writing? Critical thinking? How so?

Mental arithmetic’s? Maaaaaybeee... But I certainly couldn’t say that to a parent with a straight face. Not considering how tactically simple Fantasy and 40K actually is.

Patience? Well, okay... I’ll give you that one. It does require some patience to get an army painted.

Either the parents you worked with are extremely uncritical or you’re a very talented salesman. I freely admit that upselling a product isn’t really my strongest side, but even the guys I worked for, who were all good salesmen, had a very tough time getting over the price.

A personal anecdote, for what’s it worth...

I once watched my boss trying to get a kid into 40K. The kid, along with his mother, had sought the store out so presumably they were motivated to buy a good starter pack.

The mother looks a started box, but isn’t entirely convinced, and wants to know if that’s all that needed.
No, my boss have to admit, being an honest guy, her kid also need a codex, more models to make a legal army of proper points value, paints, brushes, glue, undercoat and varnish, flock etc.
As the cost was tallied up, the mother looked more and more horrified before finally turning to the kid and asking if he didn’t want an Xbox instead. And this was back in the days where the Xbox360 was fairly new and still expensive.

That kind of reaction was distressingly common and illustrates quite well how parents feel about this game.

But the churn and burn? Taken out of context. Yes, there is a high drop out rate. What do you expect? You're getting kids in their early (even pre) teens. They changed. They grow up. They start noticing and taking an interest in girls, sport, computer games etc. If a kids gonna leave, a kids gonna leave. But generally, they come back. When I worked there, I could guarantee a lapsed gamer would drop in at least once a week, just for a nose around, and a bit of reminiscing. At least 50% of them would walk out with a purchase. Usually the latest white dwarf, quite often paints and brushes.

Not entirely true...

Some twenty years ago, when I started playing, there was a thriving, and growing, community of veterans. Retention rate was fairly high and the veterans were generally quite involved in running events and recruiting new players.

In short, it was a thriving and, more importantly, growing community...

Fast-forward a decade or so and you start seeing a sharp decline in club-attendance. Yes, some left because of girlfriends, sport, whatever, but many left because they were becoming increasingly disenchanted with Games Workshop and felt that the game was longer worth the cost asked. And, far, far, FAR worse, no new players were being recruited...

Yes, some will leave regardless of what Games Workshop does, I’ll agree with you on that. However, and this is extremely important, they could retain a core-community of older veterans if they wanted. But instead they have all but given up on any sort of long-term strategy and is now solely focused on getting as much money out of people as quickly as possible. And that, in a nutshell, is the churn’n’burn strategy...

Unfortunately for them, it isn’t working...

As for alternatives. Never worked in a non-GW store, so I'll leave that one out. And GW's model? Not quite what you're making out. I know it irritates some, but to say there is a GW Hobby is fairly accurate. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer who can supply *everything* you need to fully indulge in the hobby. Boards, terrain, how to books, paints, rules, models, dice, flock, tools....you name it, they sell it. Ergo, you can do the full gaming Hobby without ever going outside of a GW Store. With that, it's dead easy to build up brand loyalty.

How does that make it a “hobby”?

All Games Workshop does is to repackage other companies stuff and then sell it at a huge mark-up.

As I said earlier, it just doesn’t work in places where there’s an alternative. Why should I buy Games Workshop white glue store when I can get it much cheaper from a craft-store? Why should I buy the Games Workshop plastic glue when the Revell glue standing right besides it is so much cheaper? Why should I buy Games Workshop brushes when those Sable brusher are of a much better quality? Why buy Games Workshop books when I can find much better tutorials on YouTube?

Once again, this is not working outside of areas where they have a monopoly and so, for most of us, the hobby is, at best, a misnomer and, at worst, an outright lie.

Now, regarding the initial thing about value and that. Remember, it's a personal thing. I specifically said [i]I[/] find it great value. If you don't, you don't. Not gonna say you're wrong here. As for job, I don't get paid much above minimum wage, but Hobbywise, it's just GW stuff really. Once the bills are paid and the cupboards are stocked, I have around £300.00 a month kicking about. Not a massive amount due to socialising and DVDs and that, but more than enough for me to get a couple of units every month should I wish.

And you get a much better value for your money by spending them on other, cheaper, games. At least when seen in pure monetary terms as measured in startup cost and full army price.

Of course, there’s also a question of what kind of game you like, what universe you want to play in, what you like to look at etc. But that’s not really quantifiable...

Rulebooks. Are you really telling me that you're so hard up that you can't afford a new rulebook and Codex/Army book every couple of years? Really? Honestly? Seriously? The bbooks aren't what I'd describe as 'hugely expensive' either. Sure, they're not cheap, but then printing isn't cheap either, unless you're doing a massive run regularly.

Up so hard? No, at least not now that I’m out of uni and have a job.

“Hugely expensive?” Yes, they are. Compared with, for example, a force book from WarMachine, the Games Workshop books are really bad value for the money asked.

Add to this the fact that all of these books will constantly get updates, forcing you to shell out for a new book for no good reason, and I’m beginning to feel that I’m not really getting much for my money.

I think you're crediting the internet with too much influence. Sure, established gamers use it...newb generally do not.

Kids tend to play whatever the other kids are playing. So true, if the local scene prefers Malifaux or Warmachine, those games will continue to do well. But no amount 'but this one is cheaper' will change any game from being top dog amongst the kids.

But, like I said, I don't have experience of non-GW stores, so I freely admit my view is less than wide. Doesn't change my points being valid. Value is down to the individual, and parents tend to find GW pretty good value.

You’re oh so wrong on that one...

Do you want to know what killed the game in my area? It was the price hike that happened shortly before the new plastic Terminators were released. People looked at the models, asked themselves if it was really worth it, and then went out to find new games.

Yes, I do admit that most of the gamers I knew back then could be described as veterans and so it might not be an entirely accurate observation covering all customers.

But believe me, even the newbs began to keep away after that, sales of starter kits fell, and attendance at youth nights decline sharply.

So yes, price most certainly does matter.


In conclusion, you sound as though you truly believe that your customers are entirely price insensitive. However, that’s clearly not the case. And if you don’t believe internet anecdotes (and you never should) then look no further than unit-sales to see the trouble looming ahead...

[paddyalexander]

Kids tend to play whatever the other kids are playing. So true, if the local scene prefers Malifaux or Warmachine, those games will continue to do well. But no amount 'but this one is cheaper' will change any game from being top dog amongst the kids.

The "but this one offers the same experience for cheeper" might not invluence a child but it will have a big impact on the Mother, who by the way controls the spending in 90% of house holds.

My personal experience both as a child who had to justify spending his money earned from doing gardening jobs on little metal soldiers instead of things like NES/SNES games and music cassettes/LPs/CDs (which they saw as good value for money) to an Uncle who has introduced his Nephews to wargaming and has seen how their parents reacted to it. And quite frankly the reaction of most non-gamers to products that we would consider cheep/good value is "That little plastic/metal toy costs how much???".

The first thing my Sister and Brother-in-law did apon hearing that their son wanted to play wargames was Google it. When we were in the games store my Brother-in-law asked why gwPLC stuff was so much more expensive than the Kings of War. Maybe they are an exception, taking an interest in what their child is interested in and researching the subject before hand so they can at least guide and plan his spending.

Their reaction when introduced to a subject they had little to no knowllage about was to research it. How many 10 year olds today do you think don't know how to use the internet? They are getting much more tech savy at a much younger age. Recently one of my 5 year old Nephews showed me how to connect my Nintendo DS to their home network and play a game in multiplayer.

gwPLC are having to compete in a market where their competitors are offering a clearly better value for money with games ready to play and fun out of the box and with customers with easy access to the sort of information that their store model had allowed them to resrict 15-20 years ago.

[iamfanboy]

Noobs don't use the internet... Uhh... er... that may be the first time I've heard it suggested that older people use the internet more than young folks.

As far as kids playing what other kids go, that's what he meant about GW being fine if it has a monopoly - which, I freely admit, it does in England. It worked hard to make its stores the only ones in Great Britain, and it enjoys the benefits of it.

However....

I'm working towards a degree in child psychology and development, and GW is pursuing a fundamentally flawed business model from a view of how kids actually develop. When children are younger, they desire a 'quick' solution and gravitate towards entertainment that gratifies quickly; for the most part, they don't have the patience to sit and paint an entire 40k army. And yes, GW DOES market towards children - due to some misplaced market research, but look up any of yabbadabba's posts in this subforum if you're in doubt.

However, they DO desire to spend time with peers, especially older peers (adults preferable) and those outside the family setting; this becomes prominent around age 10-12 and grows stronger the older a kid gets. Consider this an 'apprenticeship' relationship; they want guidance in experiencing the broader situations available to life, and for more geekily inclined children things like wargames/collectible card games/RPGs are perfect to satisfy this intrinsic desire.

But there needs to be a more age-appropriate focus (and I'm not talking about kiddifying the game with brightly colored ponies and happy endings); smaller scale wargames with 5-10 minis per side gives the kid an achievable goal, makes them feel more accomplished, and prepares them for a larger challenge.

All that the Games Workshop games do is set them up to feel defeated. "There's no way I can do this," the kid says to themself after spending $600 on an army, "I may as well sell this and buy an Xbox 360." And the gaming community loses another potential wargamer.

From that point of view, GW is a poison to the wargaming community. A very slow-acting one, but destructive to the next generation of gamers, and let's face it, we're not exactly a huge community as it is.

[Tymell]

Going back to the point about comparing the hobby with a night out (because it seems to come up a lot): it's a fair point to make and I can see the logic of it. You feel you're getting more value from the money if spending it on GW, and it lasts longer.

However, that whole issue of value is exactly why I don't buy from GW any more, because that value just keeps on sinking over time, while everything else I spend my money on remains largely the same, with only minimal increases over the same time.

So while a comparison of value for money between GW and a night out might seem to be in their favour, a comparison between their prices now and 5-10 years ago is much less so.

[rmeister0]

Rulebooks. Are you really telling me that you're so hard up that you can't afford a new rulebook and Codex/Army book every couple of years? Really? Honestly? Seriously? The bbooks aren't what I'd describe as 'hugely expensive' either. Sure, they're not cheap, but then printing isn't cheap either, unless you're doing a massive run regularly.

$75 dollars for a rule book just to be able to play the game is what a lot of people would call 'hugely expensive'. No other game I have ever played in all my decades on the planet have even come close to that price. Except that the real cost is $75 + $33 or $41.25 for an army book, which is also compulsory. That's at least $100 before buying any single component that allows you to actually play the game itself.

[Prices are USD, as that's where I live.]

No competitor in the miniatures game community comes close to that, except maybe Flames of War (which I haven't spent a moment looking at).

[rmeister0]

But there needs to be a more age-appropriate focus (and I'm not talking about kiddifying the game with brightly colored ponies and happy endings); smaller scale wargames with 5-10 minis per side gives the kid an achievable goal, makes them feel more accomplished, and prepares them for a larger challenge.

All that the Games Workshop games do is set them up to feel defeated. "There's no way I can do this," the kid says to themself after spending $600 on an army, "I may as well sell this and buy an Xbox 360." And the gaming community loses another potential wargamer.

This also works for older adults who have very little free time after a full time job, work around the house, and relationship time with spouse and children. Most of my GW purchases this year are sitting in the box while the few models I've had time to assemble and paint are getting used in Song of Blades and Heroes games.

If it weren't for Necromunda I never would have started this hobby.

[Mr Ogre]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand relax.

Remember peeps, my thing about value is not a blanket, sweeping or universal statement.

Me, I've tried Warmachine. Didn't get on with it, dropped it, just as some try it, love it, and drop all others. Sure, skirmish games need fewer models, but I prefer my larger battles

Regarding the 360 thing....yeah. Any idea how many parents want their sprog away from that sort of thing? GW has it's niche, and that niche is within the middle classes. Best way to retain the kid is to hook the Dad. I am taking on what people are saying, but I just happen to disagree due to my personal experience (the limitations of which I freely admit!)

I don't consider an army book, codex or rule book a large expense. For one, they make a most excellent bogside library. Plus, I'm going to get a lot of use out of them, even if I don't play the army, I like having them all on hand should I fancy the army at some point, or just for a bit of 'know your foe'.

But each to their own. At the risk of derailing the thread with personal discussion, feel free to PM me to discuss further!

[iamfanboy]

Ehh, no worries; it's just that your points come up again and again (even down to the 'night out with the boys' analogy) and some of us who visit the thread regularly get a bit burnt out on reading it.

One thing to remember - every single one of us who is arguing against you once felt the exact same way you do. Then GW did something - usually something more than just a price raise - that made us realize the GW Koolaid is made with salt and not sugar.

Hell, I don't much like Warmachine myself. Just the fact that you HAVE to pick one of THEIR heroes instead of making your own is annoying - so far I've only found two (out of the what, 50-odd?) heroes that I like enough to WANT to make a force based around 'em. I'd have the same problem with Malifaux, only I like most of their heroes more - and the minis are glorious, and I can use the minis for my Deadlands rpg sessions so I'm not stuck keeping them in the shelf if I'm not playing Malifaux.

And I also got my wargaming start before the Rise of Games Workshop (Battletech ftw!) so I have less bias towards GW.

[Mr Ogre]

No worries dude! No upset caused, nor intended!

[Sgt John Keel]

Sure, they're not cheap, but then printing isn't cheap either, unless you're doing a massive run regularly.

I'm not convinced it is that expensive. When I researched printing costs for a project (admittedly three years ago), I got a quote for about £2 per 400 page greyscale softcover 22*16 cm glued book (for a run of 8000, the next thousand would be £1.70 each).

Obviously GW's codices are a bit larger, thread bound, much thinner and have a colour section, but then again they are printed in China (presumably this is for cost reasons as it does not seem to be for quality ones) and not Sweden and in larger (?) print runs, so I'll assume they don't cost much more.

[Trasvi]

I found an online quote which seems to say that I could print magazines for just over a pound apiece for small print runs, and considerably less for GW sized runs. http://www.mixam.co.uk/products/magazines.
Don't know about hard cover but the old codices were printed and bound in exactly the same way that a White Dwarf was (less well actually, considering they were only half colour).

Its a damn annoying business model compared to other games companies. A first time player needs a BRB, Codex, Battleforce, and Paint set at the very minimum to play a ~400pt game. That compares to all skirmish tabletop games quite unfavourably, along with most mass battle games.
O well, I haven't given GW any money for a few years now - Warmachine, Dystopian Wars, and Dust Tactics are keeping me happy

[Darnok]

A first time player needs a BRB, Codex, Battleforce, and Paint set at the very minimum to play a ~400pt game. That compares to all skirmish tabletop games quite unfavourably, along with most mass battle games.

While I agree on the point of too high entry costs with GW in general, how do they compare unfavourably to other mass battle games? To be more precise: what other mass battle games? I'll accept KoW as the one true contender, and I agree that the costs are way cheaper for that one. But apart from that one?

[shelfunit.]

While I agree on the point of too high entry costs with GW in general, how do they compare unfavourably to other mass battle games? To be more precise: what other mass battle games? I'll accept KoW as the one true contender, and I agree that the costs are way cheaper for that one. But apart from that one?

Field of glory £15 for 175 pg hardback, Black powder/Hail Caesar £30 for 200 pg hardback. For historical miniatures, well you can get 60 models for less than £20 for napolionics, ancient and medieval games nowadays with Victrix/Warlord/Perys

[Darnok]

Field of glory £15 for 175 pg hardback, Black powder/Hail Caesar £30 for 200 pg hardback. For historical miniatures, well you can get 60 models for less than £20 for napolionics, ancient and medieval games nowadays with Victrix/Warlord/Perys

True. I hadn't thought of historical games.

Any contenders in a fantasy/sci-fi setting?

[Rick_1138]

Having a read through the last few posts, i always come back to my first experiences of GW.

This would have been about 1992, i was 10 and at school a fair few of my mates played and i liked models etc so i tried my hand.

I was never a massive gamer i just prefered making the models and painting them (nothings changed haha)

However when i collected you could have a good force from only a few units of say marines and a HQ and maybe a tank, so it was easy to paint them up and play quite quick.

Cost wasnt an issue as my dad usualy bought me a squad when he was flush and family often asked what i wanted at birthday etc so i got a few more (the multi melta all metal dread in the red box with polystyrene box was a treat!!)

However now i am 30, have a good job and find i buy about as much as i did when i was in my early 20's and at Uni with a part time job earning about £500 a month, i earn about 4 times that now but still enjoy the familiar buying habits, i buy a squad or a command unit for an army, or a battalion box one month for that army as they give me lots to work on for a reasonanble outlay of £60.

The issue starts when parents assume they need to buy the entire army outright, that is a lot of cash, even for warmachine you would be about £100 for a rules set, skirmish pack and glue\paint etc.

For GW this is worse as you are a fair whack for everything all at once, the starter boxes are good with a mini rules and enough of a force to play a game and build for £60.

I would have said getting a kid started out say with marines for simplicity, you would want a rulebook, a codex, commander, 2 tactical squads and mayve a tank or dread, glue and 5 paints (base, layer, black white and silver).

This would work out at roughly £170, that is either a lot of money or not depending on your circumstances, but for most its a sum to make you think. However a good sales pitch would be to get the rules as you need them, and maybe a battalion box, glue, knife and couple of main brushes and base paints.

that works out at about £120, again this is a lot, but this could be a good birthday or xmas present, as i got a few boxes at xmas and it started my interest. It is from that point you start buying a squad a month or so and by the end of a few months you have enough for a 1-1.5k force.

Yes GW is more expensive but its the most well known wargame for parents etc, and what a lot of people forget, it is a luxury item, that may sound a bit odd, but it has been on the go for a long time and it was never 'cheap' yes cheaper than now, but most things have gone up, try car tyres for an example of getting silly (recent personal rant!) and look at xbox games, i recently bought Call of Duty 5 million for £45, i finished it in less than 6 hours!! I recently bought a box of grey knight termies and knights, this was about £65, i spent all day cleaning and trimming them, working out weapon options and putting them together with some beer and Game of thrones on tv, it took most of the day just relaxing and was thoroughly enjoyable, and i have yet to paint them!! so in terms of value i feel my GW hobby gives me more than the other 'cheaper' options.

On a side point, look at the number of spare parts you get on sprues now (GK's especially) you never used to get that on older sprues and gives a lot of freedom to play about and expand on the modeling side of it that you couldnt before.

anyway i enjoy my GW hobby, and can justify a splurge on models every few months, but you just tailor your finances to what you want, also there is nothing stopping you using older models with new rules, metal GK's are as welcome as new plastic ones!

Anyway, i have gone on too long. back to work