Tactica Imperial Guard

[bob_the_small]

I may just buy 3 punishers and see how he fares against MEQ'S

Look Bob please just admit you are wrong. The very fact you are looking at it as just a tank instead of part of the wider synergy of a list or what niche it provides makes your opinion BS...

fine then, as a part of a list, it is the horde killer, the low toughness killer, and th fact that it helps with stacked wounds is immesuerably better than the LRBT...

[only joking...]

fine then, as a part of a list, it is the horde killer, the low toughness killer, and th fact that it helps with stacked wounds is immesuerably more important that a LRBT....

What the hell are you talking about, the MBT can engage almost any target, instant kill them most of the time anywhere on the board with a better ap. Bob seriously your just ******* me off now. Just think about a little compromise, everyone is being polite and making decent arguments. Slow down and look at all the facts. I mean you don't even have a guard codex for goodness sake, you probably can't name all the hvy support choices...

EDIT- and stop editing your posts without saying you have edited them

[bob_the_small]

What the hell are you talking about, the MBT can engage almost any target, instant kill them most of the time anywhere on the board with a better ap. Bob seriously your just ******* me off now. Just think about a little compromise, everyone is being polite and making decent arguments. Slow down and look at all the facts. I mean you don't even have a guard codex for goodness sake, you probably can't name all the hvy support choices...

I dont need to, Im making my stand about the punisher... and the punisher can engage almost any target too, light vehicles, transports, hordes, T3 and T4 troops..(thats hardly niche, wouldnt you say?) and it can still pull off a considerable amount of wounds and kills!

Anyway, the AP doesnt matter, the LRBT will be shooting at MEQ's who should be in cover, granting them a save anyway... and, a 6+ or 5+ save is little use against the wound output of the punisher!

[Volandum]

Oh sure. You bring your 1.5K list with a 600pt liability, I'll bring my 1.5K AV12 list posted as in the forums, and you go on and pop the mass of light vehicles and transports and slaughter the 40+ T3 troop models.

[Vaktathi]

fine then, as a part of a list, it is the horde killer, the low toughness killer, and th fact that it helps with stacked wounds is immesuerably better than the LRBT...

It is not immeasurably better than the LRBT. An LRBT at worst in averaging 3 wounds on a total whiff and on moderate scatter or solid hit will average 7-10, almost identical to the Punisher, and that's only against weeny units and only comparable at point blank range (in support tank terms). It's got a longer range, is infinitely better against tanks and MEQ's, and is way cheaper.

For the price of 3 kitted punishers you can almost get 3 triple heavy bolter LRBTs and a rocket pod valkyrie. I'd say that's far better all around than 3 punishers.

With that said, I really don't want to see this topic locked, lets all try and be civil please.

[bob_the_small]

Oh sure. You bring your 1.5K list with a 600pt liability, I'll bring my 1.5K AV12 list posted as in the forums, and you go on and pop the mass of light vehicles and transports and slaughter the 40+ T3 troop models.

Hardly a liability, and anyway they are more like 400 points for 3 (with sponsons)

Im not trying to say that the LRBT is crap, Im trying to say that the punisher is better.. imagine a number line, 1 - 100, the punisher being at 80 and the russ being at 75

[Vaktathi]

3 punishers with sponsons and no heavy stubbers costs 600pts...not 400. The base cost is 180pts.

An LRBT with 3 HB's is 170pts with plasma cannons it is 190, a LRP with 3 HB's is 200, with a stubber it's 210 and with PC's its 230.

[Volandum]

Hardly a liability, and anyway they are more like 400 points for 3 (with sponsons)

Im not trying to say that the LRBT is crap, Im trying to say that the punisher is better.. imagine a number line, 1 - 100, the punisher being at 80 and the russ being at 75

Quoted for ignorance about the IG codex.

[bob_the_small]

3 punishers with sponsons and no heavy stubbers costs 600pts...not 400. The base cost is 180pts.

An LRBT with 3 HB's is 170pts with plasma cannons it is 190, a LRP with 3 HB's is 200, with a stubber it's 210 and with PC's its 230.

540 with no sponsons

so its 30 pts cheaper per tank, thats a fair trade off IMO..

[Volandum]

87 shots hitting on 4's ( half hit, that leaves 43.5, rounding up 44.

Wounding on's that gives me a slightly better than half chance of wounding so... lets say 22- 30 wounds.... you are going to save either 1/3 or a half of them (whether you have carapace or not( so at worse, it's 11-15 dead...

And you've clearly been talking about the no-sponson config all along.

[bob_the_small]

Quoted for ignorance about the IG codex.

everyone is being polite and making decent arguments.

I see the polite and decent argument shining through here...

And you've clearly been talking about the no-sponson config all along.

Mostly yes, but with the LRBT and the LRP both with HB's then it is only a 30pt difference!

[Volandum]

You think I'm being impolite or indecent? Very well, I apologise. That sort of horrific mistake does rather hinder my considering you informed on the topic though.

[Vaktathi]

540 with no sponsons

so its 30 pts cheaper per tank, thats a fair trade off IMO..

540 is still a huge cry from the the 400 you claimed


Also without the sponsons, there is no way the LRP even comes close to comparing with the LRBT even in killing weeny units. At that point LRBT's with sponsons are still cheaper and *way* more threatening and cost efficient than sponsonless LRP's

[bob_the_small]

540 is still a huge cry from the the 400 you claimed


Also without the sponsons, there is no way the LRP even comes close to comparing with the LRBT even in killing weeny units. At that point LRBT's with sponsons are still cheaper and *way* more threatening and cost efficient than sponsonless LRP's

Weeny units or huge units, makes no difference, the punisher is at worst, on par with the LRBT, right, I need my sleep, either we can continue this tomorrow or we can all come to a hasty conclusion/compromise

You are also forgetting that with Pask i am hitting on a 3+ and he is only 50pts..

[Volandum]

... erm, are you sure you know what you're talking about? As units get bigger the normal Battle Cannon's hitting ability gets better, whereas the Punisher's doesn't.

[Colonel Jacka]

P83 of this document - WHAT ON EARTH 2D6 Penetration? No no no.

EDIT: P106 the gun is AP2.

EDIT: P106 again 3 small blasts is 27/4 pi "^2, more than the Demolisher's 25/4 pi "^2.

Pg 83.

Not me!

P106. I blame me. So shoot me.

P106. I blame Cookie, but he has editors privilege!

Oh and which article did you submit? And which CODEX ever printed has not had errors.

[Vaktathi]

Weeny units or huge units, makes no difference

yes it does, larger units means the LRBT has a better chance of landing hits with its main gun, and more powerful units means the LRBT's higher S and amazing AP make all the difference in the world. Against SM's and other heavy infantry a battlecannon is superior in every way to a punisher cannon.

, the punisher is at worst, on par with the LRBT

I still have not seen a single argument from you that has supported this. The LRBT is a greater threat to MEQ's, it's a great threat to vehicles, it's about on par as threat to weeny units like Orks, and it's got triple the range and is much cheaper. There is no way one can claim the punisher is a more cost effective or versatile unit. It *might* have a slight advantage in wound output if it's shooting at weeny units under 24", but in every other situation, there is no way one can claim the LRBT is not clearly superior, and it is much cheaper to boot.


Also, by adding Pask in, you've just made 1 Punisher cost almost as much as *two* Leman Russ Battle Tanks. In almost every imaginable situation except maybe against a Daemon Prince that isn't a CSM one or against maybe AV10/11 vehicles the two LRBT's are going to be far superior to a single Punisher with Pask.

[Volandum]

Colonel Jacka: I didn't submit an article! Do you want me to? Printed documents tend to have errors. In living documents observed ones can be dealt with if pointed out.

Vaktathi, you're using weeny to describe horde-like units, I would normally use it to describe small units, be they SM combat squads or small Burna squads. Is your use standard?

[Vaktathi]

I have no idea I use the term weeny to describe anything that's T3 or 4 with a 5+ or 6+ save. Stuff the Bolters and even Lasguns are good at killing.

[Volandum]

Okay. I'll bear in mind how you use the term then. Thanks.