Tactica Imperial Guard

[withershadow]

Just one more question on Veterans for my part - what do you think is the best "tandem" squad for a Vet unit armed with Melta/Shotgun in a Valkyrie?

Should I double-up on the Melta units (seems a bit boring), Plasma seems a bit expensive and Snipers are relatively useless as they're jumping out planes - so are Grenade Launchers the only logical support? The rest of the unit will have Lasguns and possibly a Plasma Pistol on the Officer.

With the GL squad it means I have one unit that can dig in and fire up to 24" away while the Melta unit goes after tanks. Alas I don't have the points to pick up either Harker or any of the Specialisations, so it'll just be a "naked" squad bar special weapons and Sergeant options. Jumping out of a Hellstrike/Multi-laser/Heavy Bolter valk, what specials would you take to back-up the Melta-toting unit?

I've been having great success with a Sisters squad. Two flamer and one heavy flamer template, plus 7-9 rapid firing bolters, all rending, not only make a serious dent in a unit, but also draw a lot of heat (no pun intended) away from the veterans. With the 6" range on the book of st. lucius, they also help keep the vets from bolting. With Bring it Down! they may even threaten light vehicles/monstrous creatures. They may still be T3, but that power armor makes all the difference. And you always have the option of going to ground against AP2/3 and then ordering them back in the fight.

The best part is, they aren't even that expensive. A veteran with carapace armor is 10 points; a sister with power armor, a boltgun, and all their perks is 11.

[Lord Cook]

An Armored Fist Platoon costs 345 (Grenade Launchers and Auto Cannons)
a Pair of Vet Squads, costs 300 on the nose (Grenade Launchers and Auto Cannons)

For a measly 45 points, you get an extra Chimera, Orders, AND the ability to attach 3 different targets.

That's assuming you gave the Platoon Command four grenade launchers, yes? Well first of all they both have two autocannons and six grenade launchers. The difference is that with the Veterans they are Bs4.

The orders the Platoon Command can give out are nearly worthless. Incoming! and FRFSRF have practically no application at all on such small squads, and Move! Move! Move! is hardly important given that everyone is in Chimeras. Use of orders will come down to the Company Commander, who can give orders to Veterans just as easily, the difference being that the Veteran squads will get far more use out of them than the regulars. If anything, orders support the use of the Veterans, not the platoon.

Being able to engage more targets with the platoon is also a red herring. Yes they can, but their lower accuracy and fewer weapons means they won't do much damage, so they will have to concentrate their fire anyway. Sure it does add the option to split fire more if you really need to, but similarly fewer squads makes it easier to concentrate fire in areas with restricted space or LOS. So that's no real benefit either way.

You're right in that you do get an extra Chimera for your additional 45 points. So we get a 10 points discount on one Chimera, in exchange for downgrading two heavy weapons and six special weapons from Bs4 to 3. One thing you didn't mention is that the platoon has three scoring units compared to two. However it also has six Kill Points compared to four, so that's a whitewash too.

To me, a mechanized platoon is good if you want as many Chimeras as physically possible, with some long range heavy weapons as support. The infantry carry the extra heavy weapons and because they are cheap and numerous there is space for plenty of Chimeras. By comparison, the Veterans only allow for fewer Chimeras, however they greatly improve the quality and utility of the infantry inside them.

[Treadhead_1st]

I've been having great success with a Sisters squad. Two flamer and one heavy flamer template, plus 7-9 rapid firing bolters, all rending, not only make a serious dent in a unit, but also draw a lot of heat (no pun intended) away from the veterans. With the 6" range on the book of st. lucius, they also help keep the vets from bolting. With Bring it Down! they may even threaten light vehicles/monstrous creatures. They may still be T3, but that power armor makes all the difference. And you always have the option of going to ground against AP2/3 and then ordering them back in the fight.

The best part is, they aren't even that expensive. A veteran with carapace armor is 10 points; a sister with power armor, a boltgun, and all their perks is 11.

Yeah, but I don't like using allies - already having a Witchunter army as a stand-alone force too. It's a good idea though. Celestians might be better still, with their slight buff to combat (still can't afford them in the list but it's an excuse to paint an Inquisitorial Valkyrie).

But can Allies benefit from Orders (what you were saying about benefiting from "bring it down")?

[cob]

Free krak grenades on the vets makes your point advantage worthless. Krak grenades are very very useful for mobile troops, try taking out a fortuned moved fast wave serpent in the shooting phase that has just landed on your objective without the option to assault it with krak grenades/melta bombs =].

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Hey, sorry to hit up on this topic here again, but you bring up my point exactly with your comment.. Everyone rely's on the BS4 and the slightly cheaper cost for the 2 squads of veterans.

A "Armored Fist" platoon has an extra Chimera...

Again though, maybe I am not understanding something which is making Veteran's THAT much better.

As I see it, there are two kinds of enemy units: The ones you want dead asap and the ones that can wait. Take a tank for example. Those oh so common melta Vets will very likely severely cripple, if not outright kill it. To get the same job done, you'd need probably 4 line squads with meltas. That's already double the price. To get them all within 6" simultaneously, you'd need four transports, not one, and still it would be quite a feat. Yes, those troops are much more resilient but they hardly have the same offensive power. The same goes for other loadouts as well. Of course four transports would accomplish something on their own but that's what one would expect when spending more points. Your additional Chimera simply does not figure into that argument because you must compare what you get for X points.

Of course, having more troops isn't bad per se because you can capture more objectives but I can see why people would go for the harder hitting unit.

Don't forget however, that the Infantry can fire out of them practically at full effect

As long as you do not suffer from shaken or stunned. Sorry, Ap 1 isn't even needed here - every single result damages the tank so that either it and its passengers cannot shoot, or the single long-range gun is destroyed, or it is immobile - or outright killed.

This is far from true. The Chimera's themselves can have 2 36" range weapons

I thought those weren't produced anymore? Does not everyone take HF these days?

And that's all in addition to the Leman Russ tanks and Vendettas.

Like, 4 LR and 2 skimmers? What kind of game are we talking about? Because with some gear and 9 Chimeras that doesn't sound like 1500.

Again, you're not rushing forward at the enemy like some retard-strong mutant (read: space marine). You can calmly relax and fire your guns at the enemy, and then use the chimeras mobility to capture objectives/corners later in the game.

Then you haven't used the short-ranged flamers and meltas inside the Chimeras. You are in fact suggesting that 6-9 multilasers suffice to take out the heart of an enemy over 3-4 turns at the very most. That is unrealistic. No, that is lunacy, especially when your static gunline - because that is exactly what a wall is, be it an AV12 wall or something else - will be threatened itself and will in all likelihood have to move sooner.

Perhaps the people who only spam Chimelta squads and nothing else have range problems, but with all the awesome fast attack and heavy support slots open to the Guard as well as Plasma Guns and Autocannons at BS4 on veteran Squads I don't see much short ranged about it.

All that is only available. You still need to shelve out points for it. Do not make it sound as if every awesome choice and all those plasmaguns and all those Leman Russes plus all those awesome FA choices would meet in one single list. They don't.

[quote9
The nifty thing is I also have the flexibility to move about and still fire to keep the enemy at my preferred engagement range or to rush objectives late game.
[/quote]

I understand the latter but not the first statement. What can you fire when you move, and even more, how do you keep anyone away from you by shooting at them (because by moving a couple of inches you cannot keep anyone between 24-48" away for any lengths of time)? I'd really like to know that trick.

Yes a Chimera can be stunned and out of the game for a turn, but you need S6+ weapons to even have a go at doing that.

Nonsense. 99 percent of the units in this game are a dire threat. You need S4. That was the main complaint about the Chimera in 4th edition, and under the last codex, and it has not changed.

[withershadow]

Yeah, but I don't like using allies - already having a Witchunter army as a stand-alone force too. It's a good idea though. Celestians might be better still, with their slight buff to combat (still can't afford them in the list but it's an excuse to paint an Inquisitorial Valkyrie).

But can Allies benefit from Orders (what you were saying about benefiting from "bring it down")?

If you already have the models, then all the more reason to use them as allies. After all, they are all loyal forces of the Imperium, right? RIGHT? *hovers finger over Exterminatus button*

Celestians work quite well, but I reserve that for higher point games, where I'll bring a cannoness w/ retinue as my second HQ choice (for 100 or so points, you get an HQ choice a billion times better than the Lord Commissar and Psyker combined). Their righteous hatred (or whatever), plus their WS4 and I4 make them fully a match in melee for Space Marines, especially if you throw Furious Charge in the mix. Plus, they bring 3 more faith points to the army as a whole. That gives me ~20 sisters in two squads, with 4 faith points to use.

Then again, probably my favorite 500-point module to use in 2000+ games is 5 Grey Knights in a Land Raider, mainly because I have the old models that kick all sorts of ass compared to the current range. Flank that thing with a few Russes, and watch your opponent poop himself (make sure to stand clear, and bring a surgical mask). I hope Siege of Vraks 3 updates the Inquisition Land Raiders capacity to 12, but I guess there's always Apocalypse and my Crusader.

[Sircyn]

Like, 4 LR and 2 skimmers? What kind of game are we talking about? Because with some gear and 9 Chimeras that doesn't sound like 1500.


Then you haven't used the short-ranged flamers and meltas inside the Chimeras. You are in fact suggesting that 6-9 multilasers suffice to take out the heart of an enemy over 3-4 turns at the very most. That is unrealistic. No, that is lunacy, especially when your static gunline - because that is exactly what a wall is, be it an AV12 wall or something else - will be threatened itself and will in all likelihood have to move sooner.


All that is only available. You still need to shelve out points for it. Do not make it sound as if every awesome choice and all those plasmaguns and all those Leman Russes plus all those awesome FA choices would meet in one single list. They don't.

I understand the latter but not the first statement. What can you fire when you move, and even more, how do you keep anyone away from you by shooting at them (because by moving a couple of inches you cannot keep anyone between 24-48" away for any lengths of time)? I'd really like to know that trick.

Nonsense. 99 percent of the units in this game are a dire threat. You need S4. That was the main complaint about the Chimera in 4th edition, and under the last codex, and it has not changed.

Army List here.

I've not felt short of fire power at range apart from when I have fought a combined arms guard army and a static tau gun line. I have the mobility advantage over these lists in my experience. I've not felt the need to spam any more Chimeras, I like having my other toys as they give me reach. More than 3-4 Vet units at 1500pts I feel provide diminishing returns and they do sap my long range fire by eating into the space for AV14 and speedier vehicles.

I've had plenty of success with this list, but I could just be playing a bunch of noobs in my local area.

I don't mind not using my melta squads if I don't have to, I'm also not afraid of them jumping out and taking orders to bring down really nasty stuff. Lord Cook is right, orders can be game changing with Veterans in Chimeras, making their shots count when they are needed most. You'll often only have one chance to pew that nasty target, a well placed order to twin link those BS4 guns makes sure it's dead.

Good point on picking up my messy sentence. There is no way I can keep at 24 inches all game, what I should have said was "keep out of assault". Assault is a big problem, moving 6 inches and firing lots of special weapons is a big help in that regard, but the vehicles can all scatter like pigeons if they need to. My point is that I am the one controlling the distance of engagement, mech guard lists have the potential to field enough long range fire power to neutralise enemy AT and/or fast units to accentuate the advantages the guard are playing to. The Mech Guard does well because you can play like a water warrior, you can react to the enemy and flow around him, all the way picking him apart with fire. You can sit still and gunline up, or be able to take the fight to the enemy or as in most games, do a bit of both and objective grab with most of your army in the last turns to boot.

The simple solution to the poor side armour of the Chimera is to not flash it at enemy units with S4 guns. The things are tricky to position but I've never really found the weaker facings that much of a concern when careful positioning is taken into account. The only time small arms fire becomes an issue for me is if I am dumping a squad on a target. Then I'm either trading the unit for their kill or I'll be putting other units into threatening positions to present my opponent with difficult choices. To win 40k you need to present more catch 22 situations to your opponent that benefit you than he can do in return.

[Vaktathi]

As long as you do not suffer from shaken or stunned. Sorry, Ap 1 isn't even needed here - every single result damages the tank so that either it and its passengers cannot shoot, or the single long-range gun is destroyed, or it is immobile - or outright killed.

True, but when you have half a dozen or more, who cares? They are cheap, protect your infantry, and give you two weapons that can kill infantry decently and penetrate AV11/10 vehicles. If someone is shooting at my infantry platoon chimera's and not the Vendetta's or Leman Russ tanks, it's fine with me, I've got 7 more where those came from.

I thought those weren't produced anymore? Does not everyone take HF these days?

For chimera's loaded with special weapons infantry like vets and command squads yes, for something that's going to be fairly static like an infantry squad you might as well keep the HB, you have basically just doubled it's firepower and greatly increased it's survivability for less than a 100% price increase to the squad, not to mention the mobility when it is needed.

Like, 4 LR and 2 skimmers? What kind of game are we talking about? Because with some gear and 9 Chimeras that doesn't sound like 1500.

I keep forgetting that people play 1500. In the US events are 1750/1850/2000pts.

Even in 1500pts, 2 25 man platoons with a CCS, 3 LRBT's and 2 vendetta's is pretty boss.

At 2000pts, 2 35man platoons, 3 vendetta's, a CCS and 3 LRBT's is entirely possible, amounting to 15 vehicles and 76 infantry (of which 70 are scoring and are spread over 8 vehicles).

[Treadhead_1st]

Should you totally specialise a Veteran unit or canyou get away mixing roles?

I ask because I think I've worked out how to get around my dilemma of not spamming triple-Melta Valkyrie-bourne Veterans - by taking 2 Meltaguns, Shotguns/Lasguns and a Heavy Flamer in both units. Between both, they have 4 Meltaguns, 4 Heavy Bolters, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Multi-Lasers, 4 Hellstrikes and 14 Lasguns/shotguns. Surely with this much firepower they should be able to do something despite not being specialised, right?

[withershadow]

Mixing roles just means they will be more likely to fail at whatever task you set them on

I am radically opposed to heavy flamers in Command or Veteran squads due to their ridiculous cost. 15 extra points for one extra S and AP? No thanks.

That said, a squad of Demolitionists with meltaguns and shotguns will obliterate any vehicle, and have a good chance of dealing decent damage to any infantry squad. It's a shame we can't assault out of our assault ships, otherwise I'd definitely advocate one or even two flamers to replace the meltas, and rely on the melta-bombs to blow stuff up.

[CKO]

I want in on this piece of pie about mech vs infantry. I dont recommend using infantry squads inside of chimeras unless your playing a large game and is trying to overwhelm your opponents with av12. The infantry platoon has not lost its purpose, in my mech list they are use as long range anti-tank. In a mech list the bs3 multi-laser does not do enough damage to tanks, no matter how many you take. The chimera bs3 makes it unrealiable for anti-tank duties especially when we are living in the mech era. Bring hydras or vendettas stick with the mech theme instead of the platoon,(which they do perform better) but the only problem with that is the same weapons that are used to take out the chimeras will be used to take out the hydras and vendettas or whatever anti-tank vehicle you bring.

The platoon is a large thorn in the side of your opponent constantly damaging vehicles quite easily with orders with 75pt investments, but are also hard to take out because of cover, and your opponent simply not wanting to waste firepower on infantry. While mech is your best bet there are several uses for the infantry platoon, infantry list can work atleast in theory it is working in my head.

I am able to perform better with hybrids.

[Vaktathi]

I want in on this piece of pie about mech vs infantry. I dont recommend using infantry squads inside of chimeras unless your playing a large game and is trying to overwhelm your opponents with av12. The infantry platoon has not lost its purpose, in my mech list they are use as long range anti-tank. In a mech list the bs3 multi-laser does not do enough damage to tanks, no matter how many you take. The chimera bs3 makes it unrealiable for anti-tank duties especially when we are living in the mech era. Bring hydras or vendettas stick with the mech theme instead of the platoon,(which they do perform better) but the only problem with that is the same weapons that are used to take out the chimeras will be used to take out the hydras and vendettas or whatever anti-tank vehicle you bring.

A BS3 multilaser is a fine weapon against AV10/11 vehicles. Of course it wont do for AV12 or higher, but then again it's not supposed to. But for Rhino hunting, it's not terrible, only slightly worse than an autocannon.

You shouldn't rely on them for anti-light vehicle work exclusively of course, but a solid number of Chimera's can pose a huge threat to Rhino's, Raiders, Trukk's, etc.

Against a Raider for instance, that mutlilaser, even at BS3 poses a much greater threat to the Dark Eldar vehicle than the Dark Lance does back, as they both glance/pen the same amount on a hit against each other, but while the Dark Lance is 16% more accurate, the Multilaser has triple the number of shots.

Multilasers are a solid supplement to infantry based autocannons for just about any role either weapon would perform except for shooting at AV12/13.

[CKO]

Shadow or someone do the mathhammer of bs3 multi-laser against av 11 and 12, I didnt say it was terrible just not realiable.

[Vaktathi]

Against AV12 it's almost worthless, granted, but a BS3 multilaser against AV11 is 3x as effective as a BS3 Lascannon against AV14 (and people still use lascannons against AV14), just to illustrate that it can work decently in that role, and is great against AV10 units.

[CKO]

Multi-lasers are decent against vehicles just not realiable, I am not saying its useless you shouldnt think oh I have 7 multi-lasers thats enough for anti-tank.

[Khornies & milk]

Granted, I also don't think that putting Inf/Squads in Chimeras is the absolute 'ideal' thing to do, but seen as I've built part of my list around Al'Rahem and Outflanking I have no choice...not been able to use Vet/Squads is a B_t_h.

What would people consider to be a suitable build for an outflanking mounted Platoon?
My current 'on paper' build is PCS w/3 Meltas & HF, and 3 Inf/Squads w/Flamers...Chimeras have HF's/MLasers

I don't believe the Tactica covered Outflanking to the degree it could have...unless I missed it.

[Vaktathi]

Multi-lasers are decent against vehicles just not realiable, I am not saying its useless you shouldnt think oh I have 7 multi-lasers thats enough for anti-tank.

Oh I agree, and that's why in addition to my 9 multilasers there's 6 autocannons, 14 grenade launchers, 2 melta's, 9 lascannons, and 3 battlecannons

man I love tanks.

[CKO]

I would keep the battlecannons on the infantry where they do the best.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Just one more question on Veterans for my part - what do you think is the best "tandem" squad for a Vet unit armed with Melta/Shotgun in a Valkyrie?

For pure efficiency, a similar backup would be good, as one unit is hardly going after more than one tank reliably if your opponent can help it. If he isn't able to stop a single squad from cracking up all his armour - it happens -, then it doesn't matter what else you've got I suppose. Other than that, plasma or snipers with an AC or LC seem good to me, as they can fight MC's quite well. Take off a few wounds and let the melta Vets finish the job.

I've not felt short of fire power at range apart from when I have fought a combined arms guard army and a static tau gun line. I have the mobility advantage over these lists in my experience. I've not felt the need to spam any more Chimeras, I like having my other toys as they give me reach.

Oh, that's okay, Sircyn. I do believe you of course, and perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut. I feel that Chimeras do not have that much firepower but I tend to hit once every three shots, and yet I *still* play mine as light tanks. It's sometimes quite difficult to convey a basic feeling without going into great depths and providing many battle reports, and even then they may be just flukes.

Just try to figure out how many multilasers you need to reliably kill a unit of 12 Lootas in cover (not counting on a rout) and you get an idea of what I mean.

The simple solution to the poor side armour of the Chimera is to not flash it at enemy units with S4 guns.

Good idea. Nevertheless, even if you do not actively present your side, there are ways for the opponent to get there whatever you do. The vaunted wall of AV 12 is going to stretch from one side to the other and will be liable to flank attacks. Having a Russ or artillery at the flanks isn't going to make things any easier, as one might well need these assets as well.

Of course the same goes for infantry horde as well, and it is probably the same for any larger balanced formation but since line squads are usually considered first when it comes to screening, it might not matter so much.

True, but when you have half a dozen or more, who cares? They are cheap, protect your infantry, and give you two weapons that can kill infantry decently and penetrate AV11/10 vehicles.

Hmm. You seem to assume that your opponent can only harm very few Chimeras per turn. That may be true for, say, Orks with just big shootas - for two turns but it isn't a given, especially as more and more mechanized armies appear in 'Ard Boyz and elsewhere. If on the other hand the metagame does sport the plethora of meltas that is so often advertised, then that is a bleak prospect for transports.

I would keep the battlecannons on the infantry where they do the best.

You cannot have battle cannon on infantry, only on Russes.

[Vaktathi]

I would keep the battlecannons on the infantry where they do the best.

Normally yes, but if facing a mechanized opponent as well and there are no decent infantry targets, battlecannons can be used.

Hmm. You seem to assume that your opponent can only harm very few Chimeras per turn. That may be true for, say, Orks with just big shootas - for two turns but it isn't a given, especially as more and more mechanized armies appear in 'Ard Boyz and elsewhere. If on the other hand the metagame does sport the plethora of meltas that is so often advertised, then that is a bleak prospect for transports.

Even assuming an enemy with lots of melta weapons, lets take my CSM army for example, it's got 6 units with melta weapons and a flying MC, it's going to be hard pressed to kill more than a couple tanks a turn. Melta does not guarantee a kill, and they have a righteous habit of missing hard. Even assuming a hit and pen, there's only a 50% chance to kill. Each melta against AV12 assuming a BS of 4 is only going to kill .24 tanks per turn, and that's assuming melta range or range to anything at all.

out of 13 vehicles in my 1750 list, over the course of the last 6 tournament games I've played with them, I don't think I've ever lost more than 4 chimera's, a Leman Russ and 2 Vendetta's over the course of a game. Target overload is *huge*. When an enemy has so many targets to choose from and you can constantly withdraw hurt elements or endangered elements and replace them with fresh units since you have so many, it's usually not such a huge problem.

Most armies have, at most, 7 tanks. My CSM's have 4 rhino's and could potentially field 3 Predators if I so desired. My Tau have 4 Devilfish and 3 Railguns. My Eldar have 5 wave serpents and 9 War Walkers. With each of these other armies, my IG army can outnumber them in tanks two or three to one, or at least match if you want to throw the War Walkers in counting each as a tank. Add in double or more the number of infantry and it becomes a morass for the enemy to deal with.

With proper maneuver, blocking, sacrificing some units, and concentration of firepower, you shouldn't lose even a majority of your transports unless the dice gods have totally forsaken you (which is possible). The larger problem is parking lot deployment and blocking by the enemy actually.