Tactica Imperial Guard

[Max1mum]

Well i didn't agree with you when i first posted the unit ;-)

But i do now ;-)...yes it is possible to make a point and change a mind on the internet.

Anyway, having said that. In my current armie harker still has GL's. I had 135 points left over to go before i could go reach 1750 ( this weekend, battle ;-) )

And if i gave harker the GL's, i had points for a Basic Russ with las.


Company Command 50
Straken 95
3 Melta guns 30
Medic 30
2 Bodyguards 30

Chimera 55

Valkyrie 100
Rocket pods 30

Platoon Command 30
Heavy Flamer 20
3 Flamers 15

Psyker Battle Squad 6 100

Infantry Squad + Flamer 55
Infantry Squad + Flamer 55
Infantry Squad + Flamer 55
Infantry Squad + Flamer 55
Infantry Squad + Flamer 55
Commissar 35

Veterans 70
Plasma gun * 3 45
Pasma Pistol 10
Demolitions 30

Devil Dog 120
Multi Melta 15
Smoke 5

Marbo 65

Veterans 70
Harker 55
Grenade launchers 15
Heavy Bolter 15

Demolisher + las 180
Manticore 160


1750


I know this is not the most efficient build ;-). But this is my old guard armie slowly being revitted to fit the new codex. And i just havent freed up the money to get what i want ;-) so i have to use what i have ;-).

i could ad the following

10 stormtroopers (with every possible weapon layout)
Demolisher + las + plasma cannon sponson ( old, my first tank ;-) soon to be wrecked tank/terrain bit )
3 Autocannon sentinals

[Juggalo]

That list has a lot of fat you could trim to free up points for upgrades. For example, the heavy flamer is not worth a 15-point premium over a regular flamer. A plasma pistol is a poor investment on your vet squad leader (you have like an 11% chance to die every time you fire it... losing a regular squad member hurts, but is acceptable. Losing your leader severely impacts your ability to pass orders... plus 10 points for a single 12" shot kind of sucks). A heavy bolter is only 5 points, but you list it as 15.

If you're going to use a big combined squad for assaults (I'm assuming that's the idea with the Commissar and Straken), they really need some power swords.

... Wait... did you just say someone's mind was changed on the internet? I think I hear space time collapsing. :O

[Logarithm Udgaur]

^A Heavy Bolter costs ten points.

I still disagree on the GL in Harker's squad also. If you are going to fork out 55 points for a walking/drive by Heavy Bolter, why would you want to take weapons that diminish that ability?

[dangermouse425]

A plasma pistol is a poor investment on your vet squad leader

Juggalo,

Just picking up on what you said about plasma pistols, is it applicable to CCS/PCS?

I currently run both my Coy Comd with plasma pistol and power sword and my Pl Comd with plasma pistol and powerfist. Normally both squads take flamers (1 heavy and 1 normal), but have toyed with snipers for the CCS.

Is this an expensive waste of points?

[Max1mum]

The plasma Pistol on my Sergeant is one i slapped on there from a modelling perspective ;-)
new try ;-) with the models at hand :P

And yes that is the idea, i have always played my IG as a attacking force, basicly because everybody always said it couldn't be done with the old codex ;-).

And when i read about Straken, i just had to find a way to use him ;-).

So far with the new list i have always captured the enemy's objectives...its holding on to my own that's slightly harder ;-) and i either don't do it, or only by the narrowist of margins.

I plan to give my self some more time with thelp of the Psykers.

New try ;-) some changes. And thanks for the heads up on the Inf squads, i didn't consider it. But it's very doable, afterall it will be quite some wound allocation before i have to worry about the 'expensive' things.

Allthough my Sergeants in the inf squads will now have really bad ass Chain Swords.

Company Command 50
Straken 95
3 Melta guns 30
Medic 30
2 Bodyguards 30

Chimera 55

Platoon Command 30
4 Flamers 20

Valkyrie 100
Rocket pods 30

Psyker Battle Squad 100

Infantry Squad + Flamer + pw 65
Infantry Squad + Flamer + pw 65
Infantry Squad + Flamer + pw 65
Infantry Squad + Flamer + pw 65
Infantry Squad + Flamer + pw 65
Commissar + pw 45

Veterans 70
Plasma gun * 3 45
Pasma Pistol 10


Devil Dog 120
Multi Melta 15
Smoke 5

Marbo 65

Veterans 70
Harker 55
Grenade Launchers 15


Manticore 160

Demolisher 165
Las cannon 15

1750

[Sircyn]

I'm going to buck the trend and agree with Juggalo from the outset. Grenade Launchers are rubbish, their only use is for when you don't want to spend the points for real guns on line squads but loathe wasting the special slot. It's a bit better than a lasgun. We all dislike missile launchers because they are versatile, or in other words mediocre. The grenade launcher suffers a similar failing, with the redeeming feature of its less prohibitive cost neutered by it's strength and AP being 1 point on the wrong side of fail, whatever mode of fire.

[Juggalo]

^A Heavy Bolter costs ten points.

I still disagree on the GL in Harker's squad also. If you are going to fork out 55 points for a walking/drive by Heavy Bolter, why would you want to take weapons that diminish that ability?

My bad on the heavy bolter, I never field it and view it so inferior to the autocannon that I've never even seriously considered it.

You are not paying 55 points for a relentless HB, it's simply bonus. You're paying points for outflank, stealth, and move through cover. Those are the main reason you take Harker.

And anyway, I'm failing to understand how having plasma guns takes away from his heavy bolter? Would allocation? Meh... you're already compromising that if you choose to fire the lasguns/shotguns, so may as well just add to volume of fire. Just because you CAN move and shoot, doesn't mean you always should. If you get in a nice piece of cover with a wide lane of fire, why stick your nose out? Feed them hot death from your 2+/3+ cover.

Is it that they are not assault weapons? No, that can't be it. I may be prone to the occasional bout of rudeness, but I'm not disrespectful enough to imply that you're advising assaulting with Harker.

Juggalo,

Just picking up on what you said about plasma pistols, is it applicable to CCS/PCS?

I currently run both my Coy Comd with plasma pistol and power sword and my Pl Comd with plasma pistol and powerfist. Normally both squads take flamers (1 heavy and 1 normal), but have toyed with snipers for the CCS.

Is this an expensive waste of points?

For a Company Commander, I don't consider the plasma pistol a waste of points, since his multiple wounds mitigate the biggest drawback. Of course, I'm biased because if I'm fielding a vanilla CCS, they come with 3x plasmas and a medic, so it just fits. Otherwise, I'm always bringing Straken (btw, this is the model I use as Straken... http://www.coolminiornot.com/109671).

For a Platoon Commander, it is totally a waste. Not only does this have all the drawbacks as giving them to squad leaders (except more so, since you lose an order), but you are BS3 on top of that.

I don't think it's worth giving special ccw's to either Commander. You will almost certainly lose combat to all but the weeniest of opponents, even with the whole medic+carapace+bodyguards load-out (which is also ridiculously overpriced for what it can do). Even when fielding Straken I rarely find the spare points for carapace and bodyguards (though I did paint up a pair of DKoK-ified death cult assassins to represent them). I just let the squad members die like the ablative wounds they are, and let him focus on cracking armor and busting heads (I bring along a medic, standard, 2x meltas, astropath, maybe officer).

As far as special weapons, I follow the same guidelines as with troops. The CCS being BS4 troops and having access to a medic, receive top-shelf guns. The PCS being BS3 get flamers or grenade launchers (I basically treat these guys as cheapo special weapon teams that can take a transport and have an order). I leave the heavy flamers to tanks. At 10 points, I would always take them. At 20? Pass...

---

@Max: The redesigned list looks much nicer (btw, 100 points buys you the overseer + 8 psykers, not 6). However, if you're open to a few nitpicks, read on:

Ditch the Chimera, you don't have enough vehicles to hide it, and it will just make Straken a bigger target. If you can't saturate the field with armor, drown it in blood and bayonets. Focus on cramming as many troops down the enemy's throat as possible. If you have the models, try to expand to two platoons (second PCS with 4x meltas), with 30-man Commissar-led squads. For points, cannibalize the Chimera, bodyguards and Marbo if you have to. A standard in Straken's squad will ensure those stubborn squads won't go anywhere. Ld9 is sweet, but not infallible; make probability your bitch.

The same principle kind of applies to the Valkyrie and Devil Dog. Both are fantastic vehicles, but work better in an aggressive heavily-armored force. As it is, they will be singled out by every anti-tank weapon the enemy has, so it would be best to use range to avoid meltas, and intervening bodies to avoid assaults. Instead of a Valkyrie, I would bring a Vendetta for anti-MC/walkers (something the list as it stands might have issues with). Take a page from Eldar DAVU Falcons; mount up with the 4x flamer PCS, and use its speed to clear/capture objectives in the late-game.

Instead of the Devil Dog, I would peruse the heavy support section. Perhaps some Hydras? A medusa? Another Russ/Manticore? Pound your enemy's position into dust, then trample the tattered remains under your steel-shod jackboots.

Anyway, I could ramble on forever, but my study break is over, the bottle of wine is drained, and it's *******' 5AM, so I'm off to get my 4 hours.

[dangermouse425]

Cheers for the advice, I've got a few games this weekend, I will run the following Comd Squads to test out a new direction. You've got a point about the orders, what's the point in taking an expensive pistol when your commanders need to be spamming orders anyway? Hmm.

Coy Comd
Coy Comd; nothing extra
Medic, Vox, 2 x snipers

Saves me 20 points by not taking Plasma Pistol and Power Sword.

Pl Comd
Pl Comd; nothing extra.
Medic, Vox, 2 x flamers (normal)

Saves me 40 points by not taking Plasma Pistol, Powerfist and swapping big flamer for a small flamer.

That's 60 points, which I can spend in a Chimera and still have some change!

[Vaktathi]

Cheers for the advice, I've got a few games this weekend, I will run the following Comd Squads to test out a new direction. You've got a point about the orders, what's the point in taking an expensive pistol when your commanders need to be spamming orders anyway? Hmm.

Coy Comd
Coy Comd; nothing extra
Medic, Vox, 2 x snipers

Saves me 20 points by not taking Plasma Pistol and Power Sword.

For the cost of this squad and it's relative effectiveness, I don't think the Medic is really going to be cost effective. You may be able to better frustrate an opponent with an Officer of the Fleet instead, messing with their battle plans rather than simply making the HQ command a little harder to kill. The sniper rifles are also relatively weak weapons, I'd at least make them GL's so they can move and shoot with them.

Pl Comd
Pl Comd; nothing extra.
Medic, Vox, 2 x flamers (normal)

Saves me 40 points by not taking Plasma Pistol, Powerfist and swapping big flamer for a small flamer.

That's 60 points, which I can spend in a Chimera and still have some change!

Drop the medics totally. Far, far too many points (they cost as much as the PCS does base )and you'll get more survivability, mobility, and firepower by spending the points on chimeras, and you'll be better able to put those flamers to use.

[Max1mum]

My bad on the heavy bolter, I never field it and view it so inferior to the autocannon that I've never even seriously considered it.
---

I have always been a fan of Autocannons ;-), anything that could t ake a autocannon had one in the old list ( old codex ). But now that Heavy weapon teams suck. And the sentinals with autocannons keep disapointing me. That bit of equipement has fallen out of grace.

@Max: The redesigned list looks much nicer

I never even considered brining Power weapons for my inf squads, simply because i'm old school guard. In the old school guard it was a waste of points. The fresh look at the list actualy had me drasticly reconsider it ;-).

Ditch the Chimera, you don't have enough vehicles to hide it, and it will just make Straken a bigger target.

Actualy at the moment it's more a extra lair of armour. Straken gets shot at anyway, but now at least for the first round of fire most of it will be wasted because he's in AV12. It will get busted it generaly doesn't live beyond turn 2. But by then the speed of the vehicle has brought straken and his Melta's were i want them. But it's 55 points that i could redeploy.

If you can't saturate the field with armor, drown it in blood and bayonets. Focus on cramming as many troops down the enemy's throat as possible. If you have the models, try to expand to two platoons (second PCS with 4x meltas), with 30-man Commissar-led squads. For points, cannibalize the Chimera, bodyguards and Marbo if you have to. A standard in Straken's squad will ensure those stubborn squads won't go anywhere. Ld9 is sweet, but not infallible; make probability your bitch.

The standard would be a great Visual bonus ;-) And i had this load out, i had 2 pc's and 6 10 man squads. But then i finaly ditched my beloved Vox Casters ( anothe rone of those 'must haves from the old guard ). And i found my self short a couple of guys. So either i run to the store ( don't have the time the next couple of weeks ) or i chop up the Vox casters....

but interestingly enough, i did run that list for a while ( allthough, not the standerd.....a nother old codex legacy )

The same principle kind of applies to the Valkyrie and Devil Dog. Both are fantastic vehicles, but work better in an aggressive heavily-armored force. As it is, they will be singled out by every anti-tank weapon the enemy has, so it would be best to use range to avoid meltas, and intervening bodies to avoid assaults. Instead of a Valkyrie, I would bring a Vendetta for anti-MC/walkers (something the list as it stands might have issues with). Take a page from Eldar DAVU Falcons; mount up with the 4x flamer PCS, and use its speed to clear/capture objectives in the late-game.

That's how i use the Valk atm, my pc with flamers is in there zipping around and going were i need them the most.

Instead of the Devil Dog, I would peruse the heavy support section. Perhaps some Hydras? A medusa? Another Russ/Manticore? Pound your enemy's position into dust, then trample the tattered remains under your steel-shod jackboots.

I would love some hydra's and a Medusa, ..but i just don't have the models at this point in time. And my guess is on Januari before i can get my paws on those models ;-)

Anyway, I could ramble on forever, but my study break is over, the bottle of wine is drained, and it's *******' 5AM, so I'm off to get my 4 hours.

Duty ends only i death ;-) ...so i'm sure youl be back to reply to the above points.


Now i can ad to my list the following

Standard Russ + center line las.
Demolisher with 3 heavy bolters. (my old love ;-))
Demolisher with centerline las + Plasma cannons ( first tank ever, and future terrain project, i'm going to scrap it ).

10 storm troopers with every possible weapon layout.
Enough vox casters ;-). Those would free up enough models to get me a extra Platoon com and a squad.
3 Armoured Sentinals with Autocannons.
(baneblade, 2 Thunderbolts but that's not codex is it :P)

So with the models that i have and with this weird Wysiwyg fetish..i think i have the most efficient list possible ;-).

[dangermouse425]

Drop the medics totally. Far, far too many points (they cost as much as the PCS does base )and you'll get more survivability, mobility, and firepower by spending the points on chimeras, and you'll be better able to put those flamers to use.

How does it change if I told you I always took a Master of Ordnance, so being able to move and shoot isn't really a factor.
What about swapping the two specials for a heavy team?
I've got plenty of GLs in my line infantry and think I'd be wasting the BS4 on GLs. Plus the chance of rending is fun. Hmm. Your thoughts?

Surely if my PCS is jetting around in chimeras they're not going to be able to issue orders to my ranks of infantry? 6" range is pretty shoddy so I tend to keep them back. Plus flamers are useful for templating Outflankers/Deepstriking infantry.

That bit of equipement has fallen out of grace.

Have faith! I have 3 in a HWS, 3 on Sentinels and 1 in a Vet squad. Plus a Hydra. Bring back the autocannons!

I would love some hydra's and a Medusa, ..but i just don't have the models at this point in time.

I've got a really simple Hydra scratch build, have a look at my sig. Mine looks a bit shoddy because I've never scratch built before, but it's a good stand-in if you're saving up for Forgeworld goodies.

[Vaktathi]

How does it change if I told you I always took a Master of Ordnance, so being able to move and shoot isn't really a factor.

In that case, a chimera is even better. Sit them in there, you can move if you need to and move better, but you are more survivable and have even more weapons to shoot when stationary. Basically, when able, always throw everything in a chimera

What about swapping the two specials for a heavy team?

That could work too, tossing in an autocannon wouldn't be bad.

I've got plenty of GLs in my line infantry and think I'd be wasting the BS4 on GLs. Plus the chance of rending is fun. Hmm. Your thoughts?

The sniper rifles are just so weeny. Against anything T5 and lower the GL's are still better at 24" and under, and against T6 only lose out to Rending (so not a whole lot) so the Snipers are only really much better against T7+ stuff, and the GL's are better anti-light vehicle if need be. The only other thing is Pinning, but most armies/units are Ld9/10/Fearless/Ld rerolls, etc. so its just not worth it.

Surely if my PCS is jetting around in chimeras they're not going to be able to issue orders to my ranks of infantry?

You can issue orders *out* of a Chimera as it has a special rule that allows one to do so, you just can't issue orders to units *in* them.

6" range is pretty shoddy so I tend to keep them back. Plus flamers are useful for templating Outflankers/Deepstriking infantry.

A chimera only enhances your ability to make use of these abilities, and can add a heavy flamer to the mix as well

[Max1mum]

I think Vaktathi (interesting handle, what's the story behind it ?)

Is a real Chimera Fan ;-)

And the points he makes are strong points, especially in your tactic. The MoO can fire while sitting inside a chimera all the same.

And the bodyguards and medic are just as expensive. But the chimera provides a better save.

And anything that could get to your Command Squad while your inside a chimera would ignore the Feel No pain anyway. So if the weapons that could pop the chimera are in range of your command squad, the medic won't save your commander.

[dangermouse425]

Thanks guys, interesting ideas, I will try and implement them in this weekend's games against my regular Eldar oppo.

Now I have nothing to do with all my lovingly created sniper models and medics! That'll teach me to build my models on what I like the look of, rather than what's any good in game!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

So basically, every single person that so far has disagreed with my assessment of the grenade launcher is actually agreeing with me.

Yeah, up to now.

See, that's just my point. The grenade launcher is not a versatile weapon, unless you consider sucking at everything versatility.

Grenade launchers are exactly as good at killing MEQ's and actually better at damaging Rhinos over 12" or on the move.

[Max1mum]

*smiles*

Tell me about it..

i have 3 heavy flamers,
12 (!) Vox casters
3 Lascannon teams
3 Rocket teams
3 Autocannon teams...

(granted, these were all build with the previous codex) but still

i have them, and they are pointless now :S

[Vaktathi]

I think Vaktathi (interesting handle, what's the story behind it ?)

Very old PC gaming screen name, I came up with it in middle school over a decade ago for something to sound weird and scifi-ish and probably included a fair amount of bashing on a keyboard and sticking vowels in where needed to make it pronounceable

Is a real Chimera Fan ;-)

Indeed. I've got 16 of them sitting in the other room.

I love me some Chimeras and tanks in general really.

Now I have nothing to do with all my lovingly created sniper models and medics! That'll teach me to build my models on what I like the look of, rather than what's any good in game!

Snipers you can always use as Ratlings or even basic line dudes if need be. If you really like the snipers you can still use them, they aren't terrible, they just aren't the most optimal option most of the time. The medics *can* be useful, but would best be used as a supplement to a Chimera and I'd really only use them on the CCS, mainly if I were using the CCS for counter assault purposes. Straken's unit with a medic for instance would be brutal.

As for useless models, I've got tons of those I toss them in for Apoc games for fun. I've never used my Techpriests anywhere else, but I really do like the look of them. I'll probably never use my DKoK commissar, but I've got one all the same.

[Cain1001]

Noooo Ogryns! I always wanted to try this unit, but jesus you get a LRBT for how much they cost.

Primaris Attached to Vets with AC and 3 GL's is hilarious anti infantry, even good vs. marines/rhino rush. Multi Purpose to the extreme. Keep in mind though, for 60 points more you could buy a valkyrie...

Keep this in mind as well, that's a lot of points investment running around in one transport, and worth 2 KP. I'd rather save the HQ spot and buy a CCS, and invest in a lovely Psyker Battle Squad, which can be anti marine, horde, and even anti tank. Hell, I'm just now thinking about maxing out the squad with STR 9 just to add the options to hit Land Raiders from afar. HRM! Talk about versatility!! Medusa - 135 base. Maxed out PBS, 110 + Chimera. Can't be killed by one lascannon shot, Weaken Resolve is extremely powerful IMO, and Soul Storm is just GUARDY.

Why I really vouch for PBS - Guard generally wants to focus on a few targets a turn. Using 1 PBS and 1 unit to cause 25% casualties or pinning effectively neuters a unit so you can decrease the amount of primary targets which helps guard a lot.

And yes, Soul Storm is variable in AP. So what. If I hit marines with a STR 9 template, I recieved a griffon for the turn with extra options and survivability.

I added the 5 Ogryn with a Commissar to see if what everyone said about them was true. My results:

As usual, most players who state something is bad are wrong, (What they mean to say is, "Something else can be used as effectively, but cheaper......(as long as you own the model of course). This means the Ogryn are good, but over priced.

Yes the Ogryn are expensive for what they do. What they do is give you the best chance to survive CC in an Imperial Guard army, (every game I was less stressed when the opponent rolled in towards my lines or an objective). Mine were absolutely fantastic in all 5 games, 4 games against Black Templar, (against 7 man Termies w/ LCs and TH) and 1 game against Demonhunters.

(some say they like Rough Riders or Grey Knight Termies in this role = RRs are one shot wonders w/ zero staying power, (If you miss a lot first turn you are double screwed). GK Termies are better then Ogryn, but don't fit theme and get targeted a lot + can't be in a Chimera like Ogryn can.

I am removing the Commissar due to points and usefulness.

I think people should give advice in two categories:

1. Normal games
2. Tournaments

My Primaris Psyker has done very well -
rolled up 11 attacks in shooting and had 2 insta kills with Force weapon on Grey Knights. (with my flamer squad and CC I was able to destroy 10 man Grey Knight squad that teleported behind my lines)

The debate about using flamers in a Vet squad are not as well defined as they should be - Do you use points on a weapon that doesn't take advantage of the BS the Vets have = Yes, do those weapons have a good role = Yes - so if the weapons do very well in a squad then why would you NOT use them just because they don't take full advantage of the BS4?

I see a lot of players get hooked up with point efficiency, but fail to look at what works in live games, kinda like the old saying about combat - "Even the best laid plans don't survive first contact" (or however that goes).

an example would be Vindicators for me in a space marine army -
I can never hit with my variance dice and if I do cover saves or bad penetrate rolls kill my attacks. I also always get a weapon destroyed result when attacked. I don't like wasting my time with running those even though they are considered point efficient and general problem solvers.

[dangermouse425]

Cain,

I completely agree, it is very important to bear in mind that although it is true that the popular MeltaVets/Chimera/Valkyrie (or similar) combinations are effective and that the IG list can be tweaked and streamlined into a tournament winning machine of death, deep down what really matters is having a laugh with your mates and playing an army that suits your character.

I used to be a WHFB Orc player, so my love for hugely destructive but somewhat unreliable things is evident when you look at my army: Master of Ordnance, Deathstrike, Manticore (in progress), etc.

Also, one's love/hatred for different models can shape your army, or even a theme.
I think the idea of carrying a flag into a battle in the year 40,000 is ridiculous so have no standards in my Comd Squads. In the same way, a medic seems like a sensible addition to any army, so whilst not particularly point-efficient, I have fun and have an army that suits my style of play.

That said, obviously it's fun to win too, and rubbish to get thrashed all the time, so striking the balance between having a points efficient killing machine and remaining true to yourself/your theme/your style of play is very important, imho.

[Chiron]

Cain,
I think the idea of carrying a flag into a battle in the year 40,000 is ridiculous so have no standards in my Comd Squads. In the same way, a medic seems like a sensible addition to any army, so whilst not particularly point-efficient, I have fun and have an army that suits my style of play.

Indeed, I have objections to having to pay to use vox-casters, particularly as all of my Valhallan models actually have commlinks on them to start with.

Alas... I pay the points, not going to use a dedicated models to represent them though except om Command Squads, these guys would have dedicated voxes for orbital relay