Tactica Imperial Guard

[Fithos]

you reduce the scatter by the firing model's BS for direct fire, but not for indirect fire.

Is this a special night fight thing I have never come across? I thought you could always reduce scatter by your BS if you could see the target regardless of if the shot was direct or indirect; or did I just misunderstand your post?

[Reece]

Is this a special night fight thing I have never come across? I thought you could always reduce scatter by your BS if you could see the target regardless of if the shot was direct or indirect; or did I just misunderstand your post?

I'm pretty sure you've got it right.

-Reece

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[russellmoo]

I can see how the indirect vs direct and its relation to using BS to reduce scatter is confusing- hope this helps make it clear

When firing a barrage weapon if you cannot see the target, you don't reduce the scatter by your BS, however, if you can see the target you can reduce the scatter of the shot by the BS of the firer-

In the case of most Ordnance barrage weapons you get to choose whether you will fire directly or indirectly- the choice is based off of several factors such as 1) is the enemy in LOS if not- the only way to hit them is to fire indirectly. 2) Are they behind cover, say a wall, or some ruins- something that is not area terrain, here you might want to fire indirectly because there is a chance that the shot will land in such a way that the enemy unit does not get a cover save. 3) Is the enemy within the minimum range for barrage, say closer than 24" (i.e. they are more than 24" from the weapon firing) if they are too close then you must fire directly in order to shoot at the enemy-

Hopefully this is clear and if it's not 100% correct someone feel free to post-

[ColShaw]

Is this a special night fight thing I have never come across? I thought you could always reduce scatter by your BS if you could see the target regardless of if the shot was direct or indirect; or did I just misunderstand your post?

Sorry; what I should've said was that you reduce scatter by BS for targets in line of sight, but you don't reduce it if you don't have line of sight. Whether it's a barrage or direct fire is irrelevant to this.

[Captain Brown]

The best thing they could do with defensive weapons is make it a special rule instead of a classification. That way they don't get shoe horned with all S4 or all S5. Heck even that way you could have Hbolters be defensive, but some other S5 weapon still not be.

This is the type of thing that makes me leary about the new edition. I am just finishing painting an infantry company and a tank company. They may or may not be completed by the new release. I would hate to see the new rules and have to shelf most of my completed models as I wont tear them apart to remodel weapons once painted (Most of the tanks were traded for and are glued down not magnetized). I am not sure I have the will power (or sanity left) to start a new infantry company from scratch.....

Check out my Imperial Guard PLOG...that army has already been through a could of Codex changes and Rule editions and you can see some of the changes I have had to make...I do miss sergeants with Lasguns or Storm Bolters.

Cheers,

CB

[Scibadi]

I'm sure this has been brought up a lot, but what are your thoughts on roughriders? Sure at 10pts they die the same as a normal guardsman but with such a big threat radius you could just hide them or bring them on from reserve.

What I want to know is what kind of list they work best with as I want to hopefully do a 875pt Mordian list to take to the doubles tourney in september. I was thinking of going mech (original lol) so the riders can advance behind the chimeras. The chimeras/infantry pop the enemy transports and then the roughriders charge the disembarked enemy troops.

But then on the other hand my roughriders will then be in the open themselves (if they survive the combat) and also they'll use up a fast attack slot. As we only get one FOC between us then that could be a problem. Also as they only get the charge bonus once then after that they are pretty useless, they have krak grenades but I'll already have a nice amount of anti tank anyway so meh

[Commissar Merces]

After getting thoroughly spanked last weekend by Tau and CSM, my army bounced back with a pair of electrifying wins against orks.

My games against Tau and CSM were horrible to say the least. In the tau game, I did one of the battle mission books missions (prepared assault) and got cut down to the man. My opponent brought 3 hammerheads and so many battlesuits to deal with my chimeras, it was nothing short of a slaughter. Another thing that went horribly wrong was my huge platoon getting in combat with farsight, thinking I could cause enough wounds to win combat with 60 attacks but failing to do anything and having him catch all 24 remaining men and killing all of them.

CSM was a really close game, but once again I suffered from horrendous planning on my part as night fight wrecked my ability to shoot.

My games against the orks were very different as I stock piled hydras in the first game, overcoming my opponent through firepower in the first game, and in the 2nd game fielding almost 250+ infantry models in the 2nd game in a 1750 point game. I have come to the conclusion that outflanking 50 guardsmen in a single squad with Al Rahem is absolutely worth against orks as I can rapid fire and then move out of his charge range with Like the Wind if he has already used his waaagh

This got me thinking, however, as I talked with a redshirt who said infantry was going to be the focus of the next edition. He seemed to hint that the rapid fire rules were going to change and that large infantry guard armies would be able to dish out a lot more shots. Take with a grain of salt, but I think he is referring to our ability to do First Rank Fire and using that as a standard for rapid fire. Firing two shots at 24 and three shots at 12. With that in mind are we going to see the end of the leaf blower guard lists? Will people start using all infantry lists if this is true? What happens to our order if true? Twin linked maybe?

Also, if the rumored hull points system is true, think about this. A rhino has a rumored 3 structure points, how many will a chimera have?

[ColShaw]

I'm sure this has been brought up a lot, but what are your thoughts on roughriders? Sure at 10pts they die the same as a normal guardsman but with such a big threat radius you could just hide them or bring them on from reserve.

What I want to know is what kind of list they work best with as I want to hopefully do a 875pt Mordian list to take to the doubles tourney in september. I was thinking of going mech (original lol) so the riders can advance behind the chimeras. The chimeras/infantry pop the enemy transports and then the roughriders charge the disembarked enemy troops.

But then on the other hand my roughriders will then be in the open themselves (if they survive the combat) and also they'll use up a fast attack slot. As we only get one FOC between us then that could be a problem. Also as they only get the charge bonus once then after that they are pretty useless, they have krak grenades but I'll already have a nice amount of anti tank anyway so meh

Well, you're absolutely right that Rough Riders are a one-use weapon. Fire-and-forget. I wouldn't worry too much about them being left in the open after their charge; if they're there, that means they did their job and killed something dangerous, so they can meet the Emperor with dignity and honor.

I find they work best for me as a Reserves threat with my infantry Guard. I leave avenues between my units, place the Riders in Reserve, then charge with them straight out of Reserve into whatever's the best target my opponent brought. The other use I've found for them is advancing them along with my objective-grabbers, using them to assault past their screening units and kill whatever's holding the objective, then take said objective next turn with my ground-pounders.

I've tried using them together with some Chimeras, but haven't had as good results; not quite sure why, but mainly I think it's that they have to be careful as the only non-vehicle target, so if the opposition does get a shot at them, they'll go down in a hurry.

[Fithos]

I'm sure this has been brought up a lot, but what are your thoughts on roughriders? Sure at 10pts they die the same as a normal guardsman but with such a big threat radius you could just hide them or bring them on from reserve.

What I want to know is what kind of list they work best with as I want to hopefully do a 875pt Mordian list to take to the doubles tourney in september. I was thinking of going mech (original lol) so the riders can advance behind the chimeras. The chimeras/infantry pop the enemy transports and then the roughriders charge the disembarked enemy troops.

But then on the other hand my roughriders will then be in the open themselves (if they survive the combat) and also they'll use up a fast attack slot. As we only get one FOC between us then that could be a problem. Also as they only get the charge bonus once then after that they are pretty useless, they have krak grenades but I'll already have a nice amount of anti tank anyway so meh

The most common use for them is to hold them in reserver. When they come in they have potentially a 24" charge which should allow you to hit whatever is harassing your gunlines. Once they have charged tehy are effectively worthless. They can tank hunt with Krak grenades but you probably have better units for that. Generally they are best served with an army that holds back and fires from your side of the board so the reserves trick works meaning they are not optimal for use with mech. I'm sure it can be done, but I have never used the combo so before assuming it works I would at least make sure the riders sit low enough on their mounts to not be seen over the tops of chimeras.

That being said, and with the disclaimer that I love riders and am probably the only one in my meta to regularly use them, if you only get one fast slot and you are playing mech you probably want to consider something else. Sort of depends on your teammate and the combined rules for what I would advise to take, but vendettas are always great if you don't mind transporting it (and forking out the money) and might be even better in team games if you are allowed to ride in your allies transports. Could make for some fun combos.

[Rhaivaen]

I don't understand why peeps are so one lined in their thought process of how to use Rough Riders..

They are allowed special weapons, why can't they be used as a faster then Veterans responce team,
hide them behind some tanks or other big scenery, and let them ride out to flank vehicles or certain
high value infantry targets, and blast crap out of it/ them.
(depending on weapon layout obviously, like melta guns for anti tank, plasma for anti inf.,
not sure about: flamers?/ grenade launchers?)

Edit:
I can imagine things like:
Ulani Lancers on foot (Veterans, Sgt. Pwr wpn, 3x Grenade Launchers, maybe model them with spears/ lances eve when on foot, Making them Uhlan's, lol.)
Ryzan Huszars (Sgt. Pwr wpn, 2x Melta, My standard config atm for R.R.)

[Formerly Wu]

1) They're not faster than veterans unless on the charge. Cavalry move like infantry. If the Veterans are meched up, they're slower.
2) Special weapons replace their hunting lance, which is what gives them their charge potential.
3) They're BS3, so not very reliable with the weapons you just replaced their charge potential for.
4) A meltagun works best within 6", which wastes their 12" charge range. And anything you need a melta to kill doesn't care about your bonus initiative and is only moderately scared of S5.
5) Flamers and plasma pistols suffer the same range issue as meltaguns, in that your maximum charge range is outside your special weapons' effective range.
6) Plasma prevents you from charging at all.
7) Power weapons, again, replace the hunting lance, which is categorically better in the majority of situations.
8) When not on the charge, they're 10 point guardsmen, made more expensive by special weapons.

Grenade launchers might be okay if you're running a max squad and want to give them some skirmish potential.

It's not so much lack of imagination as it's a unit built to do exactly one thing, then provided options that actually make them worse at it.

[Scibadi]

Hmm roughriders are only bs3, can only take 2 special weapons and it also replaces their hunting lance. Also they only move 6" before shooting so you may as well take cheaper infantry if you want them to shoot.

And I mean in the doubles we get 1 army list between us, so 3 fast attack slots, 3 heavy, 6 troops etc.

[ColShaw]

Formerly Wu has the rights of it. RRs are terrible platforms for Meltas. I've been known to take a single Flamer in my RRs, because then they at least have the potential to do something to enemy infantry following the expenditure of their Lances (this is mainly so my opponents don't just totally ignore them!) Plasma is even worse. And really, they hardly ever want to shoot, because that uses up their Fleet roll. Veterans in Chimeras are much better for getting close-range shots. Rough Riders work as a charge threat about 18" away; that's what they do. That's just about ALL they do. And they're really good at it.

It's always important to note the difference between Cavalry and Jump Infantry in movement. Jump Infantry can operate exactly as you described, Rhaivaen. But Cavalry lack the normal move ability to flank things with shooting in any meaningful way. They are all about the charge.

[Rhaivaen]

1) They're not faster than veterans unless on the charge. Cavalry move like infantry. If the Veterans are meched up, they're slower.
2) Special weapons replace their hunting lance, which is what gives them their charge potential.

Yes, they are geared towards charging, mindlessly so, and having the apparent useful weapon access is thus not helping at all I guess

3) They're BS3, so not very reliable with the weapons you just replaced their charge potential for.

BS 3 is not good or bad in any particular way/ shape or form imo, its nicely average
Most players like Elite, and count from that as a base, this is imo wrong

4) A meltagun works best within 6", which wastes their 12" charge range. And anything you need a melta to kill doesn't care about your bonus initiative and is only moderately scared of S5.

Yes, well, as I say, if the cavalry does not have a higher base move then ordinary Infantry, then my logic does not hold

5) Flamers and plasma pistols suffer the same range issue as meltaguns, in that your maximum charge range is outside your special weapons' effective range.

Sure.

6) Plasma prevents you from charging at all.

Yes, if cavalry has no better movement over infantry then my logic is right down the toilet

7) Power weapons, again, replace the hunting lance, which is categorically better in the majority of situations.

But continuously there unlike the lances.

8) When not on the charge, they're 10 point guardsmen, made more expensive by special weapons.

O well

Grenade launchers might be okay if you're running a max squad and want to give them some skirmish potential.

It's not so much lack of imagination as it's a unit built to do exactly one thing, then provided options that actually make them worse at it.

I guess so, but the rules should be so adopted as to make those options viable and better fitting, then having it work the way which it does atm, which is wrong.

Rough Riders work as a charge threat about 18" away; that's what they do. That's just about ALL they do. And they're really good at it.

It's always important to note the difference between Cavalry and Jump Infantry in movement. Jump Infantry can operate exactly as you described, Rhaivaen. But Cavalry lack the normal move ability to flank things with shooting in any meaningful way. They are all about the charge.

I do not own the basic rulebook, so unfortunately cant check on either's rules of how they really operate, sounds like that cavalry should work like jump infantry then

[ColShaw]

BS 3 is not good or bad in any particular way/ shape or form imo, its nicely average
Most players like Elite, and count from that as a base, this is imo wrong

You are right that BS3 is quite common in the IG. Unfortunately, you did directly compare them to Veterans in your previous post suggesting RRs as an alternate means of delivery of Special weapons, and Vets are BS4. So... yeah.

[Rhaivaen]

You are right that BS3 is quite common in the IG. Unfortunately, you did directly compare them to Veterans in your previous post suggesting RRs as an alternate means of delivery of Special weapons, and Vets are BS4. So... yeah.

Only if the tactic requirment of higher movement was there for the mounted ones, then it would be useful, not now indeed, I do not disagree with you

[Rhaivaen]

It simply means that the current game mechanics do not allow cavalry to work in a decent way as they should in 40K
And I will have to adjust my tactics/ building of certain mini's

[ColShaw]

It simply means that the current game mechanics do not allow cavalry to work in a decent way as they should in 40K
And I will have to adjust my tactics/ building of certain mini's

Fair enough. I agree that cavalry should be more mobile than it is. A 9" move, followed by 9" assault (like Tyranid Raveners had in their previous codex incarnation), plus Fleet, would make sense and would make them a great deal more mobile.

But then, maybe if we show up to fight tanks with horses, we deserve to get run over...

[Rhaivaen]

Fair enough. I agree that cavalry should be more mobile than it is. A 9" move, followed by 9" assault (like Tyranid Raveners had in their previous codex incarnation), plus Fleet, would make sense and would make them a great deal more mobile.

But then, maybe if we show up to fight tanks with horses, we deserve to get run over...

Totally agreed!, but, we don't fight them the old fashioned way, we run past and stick a mine to the side, or we flank it with highly more mobile "horses"and shoot it in its ass with a piat-like weapon of off the horse's back.. not charge it with fracking lances!, we should have the choice when we were to use them, meaning, If I decide to charge the tank, I would use grenades, not those lances, then I would still have those for any anti-personel use..

[Commissar Merces]

I love how this rough rider discussion has gone haha. They are so cool and deserve a much needed boost in the next edition, much like tyranid beasts