Tactica Imperial Guard

[Lord Cook]

Not really. The additional versatility is at best situational.

So you would advocate a heavy flamer instead I presume? Fair enough, you save points and gain a useful defensive weapon. However if the Leman Russ in this comparison has no lascannon, then it has very poor anti-tank indeed, and becomes worse against monstrous creatures as well. In exchange it becomes cheaper and gains a heavy flamer, but now we're comparing apples and oranges. Who can say whether it is better to have a heavy flamer, or to be stronger against monstrous creatures, for example? Comparing the two vehicles has less meaning.

While this is indeed true, how often do these situations happen? The Plasma Russ consistantly outshoots the Executionner against anything that lacks a 2+ armour save (ie at least 95% of infantry units in the whole game), and such an advantage is probably worth the loss of versatility IMHO.

Shooting at 2+ saves? Well it's certainly not uncommon. Space Marine armies often possess a unit of Terminators. Chaos armies less so, but typically have Obliterators instead. Tyranid armies almost always have monstrous creatures with 2+ saves. I've never seen Daemons without Plague Bearers, and a battle cannon won't ignore FNP on a T5 model. Tau commonly have Broadsides. Only a handful of units in the grand scheme of things, but enough to make a difference.

More importantly, the Plasma Russ out shoots the Executioner against non 2+ save units while stationary. I still think the ability to move and fire to full effect is woefully underestimated. Not just in the protection it offers to your tank from assault, but also in your ability to get LOS to a target, or to gain an unobstructed view to something in order to deny it a cover save, to get out of LOS of enemy anti-tank weapons, or to provide a cover save to friendly units by maneuvering in front of them. Talking about 'stationary firepower' under any such circumstances is academic.

Would I trade 1 str7 AP2 36inch small blast for 1 str8 AP3 72inch large blast free of charge?

How is it free of charge when you downgrade from rear Av11 to Av10?

[Juggalo]

Even while moving, a single battle cannon is better vs infantry than two plasma cannons.

Yes, mobility is very important, and should not be underestimated. However, the plasma Russ has a number of perks already listed here, and the performance difference between the two tanks (when there is one) is so small, that it comes down to personal preference/common enemies you face.

And of course, there's the fact that the executioner cannon makes an already stupid-looking tank look even stupider. :P

[AllisterCaine]

Ok, I guess a lot of you guys missed the joke. "as ridiculous as veterans with shotguns" = not so ridiculous.

Cook, I think in your defense of the Executioner, you are forgetting that units with 2+ saves are inherently small in number and elite in nature. Such traits would call for weapons like plasma guns more, which can handle the units you stated above just as well, with the only possible exception of a Plague Bearer army. You have to keep in mind that these units are much more likely to be spread out, thus negating the only advantage a plasma cannon has over a plasma gun (aside from range).

I personally find that movement on a Russ is not as important as you would take it. If you place it right during your deployment, you seldom have to move it around. I don't know what tables you play on or what opponents you play against, but in my experience a Russ has enough of a firing arc to cover a very good portion of the table, with a little occasional pivoting, which doesn't count as movement.

AV11 is important, but again, not as much as you are making it out to be. However, the former option is fuzzy too, since it is lacking in weapon synergy. I guess it depends on whether superior firepower is more important to you, or better defensive capabilities. There isn't a right or wrong answer here.

[Vaktathi]

the triple blast will generally ensure a higher minimum casualty count and potentially higher maximum, but the single large blast will probably net you the higher mean number of casualties, assuming no 2+ armor saves. The small blast makes it much easier for an opponent to mitigate the number of models hit, but the greater number of shots means you'll likely hit at least one thing and probably won't whiff entirely like you can with a battlecannon.

The reason I like the battlecannon +2 PC's is that you get 3 blasts out of it, 2 when moving, and anything that isn't sporting a 2+ save is going to hate it a lot, and it's still only 190pts, and won't be neutered by a single weapon destroyed result, and has a ton of range.

The executioner will put out a ton of blast templates, but doesn't quite have the range, and is the same cost as a Land Raider with sponsons, and relatively easily neutered without them. I don't think its unreasonable for 245pts for 5x PC blasts and a lascannon, I think it's a solid setup, but its very expensive. I think in most cases you can do just as well with a BC, HB and 2x PC's for most infantry hunting, and if you are worried about wound allocation gimmicks, you don't have to fire everything.

[**BaDaSsA**]

There is and always will be the "scenario/instance" in which any given tank (punisher excluded) is better than another, but in general the Main Battle Tank is better.

However, if you can get a Demolisher, or 3 positioned in the middle of the table now that is awesome!

If not for the range of 24'' then wouldn't the Demolisher always be the best? If you agree then the trick is just to get into position...


Thanks!


Jason

[CKO]

The problem with the majority of you guys theory is that you are trying to make a vehicle good at everything. Your list should be able to handle everything not one vehicle, units are suppose to have roles not be able to handle what ever the enemy throws at me, its a defensive mindset that you all are in, not only that but your reasoning sound all alike. The plasma russ is a cheap wannabe executioner, I dont understand if its the difference between str 7 & 8 or ap 2 and ap 3 that you guys are having trouble with.

Why pay 40 pts to get 2 plasma cannon? When you can pay 15 pts to upgrade a chimelta to have plasma guns.

[fluffstalker]

Just take both - problem solved .

[Sircyn]

I do exactly that.

I tend to find that I have about two turns with the luxury of being stationary if I have placed my units well, after that against some armies I am moving for the rest of the game and that rear armour 11 can negate a load of basic infantry attacking a tank. however most units have a powerfist of some sort that tends to make the extra AV largely irrelevant.

In my games the mobile executioner tends to draw attention away from my more static plasma Leman, with the latter being able to sit and dominate a fire lane while the former can be more proactive in hunting its prey. In practice I have found the difference between the twos killing power to be much of a muchness. I do use the Executioner for specifically hunting 2+ save units whereas the PC Leman is primarily an anti infantry tank that can at a stretch hurt 2+. I take the plasma sponsons on the Leman for the extra templates primarily.

The PC's are the best sponson weapon for the Leman, if we all agree the HB sucks on a Chimera then paying 20pts for a couple on a Leman also sucks for the same reasons BS3 HB's suck. In my experience opponents are happy to leave a 3xHB Leman alone once the turret is knocked off. A PC version still demands respect. The MM option relies upon BS3 single shot weapons and the short range means its rare you get to fire both. The PCs at 20pts per gun are a great option in comparison. A great statline that relies less upon BS and with templates to add to the main guns crowd control.

[Vaktathi]

Why pay 40 pts to get 2 plasma cannon? When you can pay 15 pts to upgrade a chimelta to have plasma guns.

Because the PC's have longer range, won't cook themselves, and aren't necessarily exclusive to taking the vets? Personally, I'd still rather take the meltavets for AT and the PC's for anti MEQ anyway.

[CKO]

Look do whatever it is you want, if your win percentage is as high as mines and your using the leman russ with plasma cannon keep ordering them around.

[Vaktathi]

Look do whatever it is you want, if your win percentage is as high as mines and your using the leman russ with plasma cannon keep ordering them around.

In all honesty, I can't recall the last time I lost with IG in a game that wasn't like a combat patrol or something. My last tournament, between the 3 games, I lost less than half the models in the army in total. And that was without *any* plasma weapons in the army The last time I played 2k with the PC sponsons and some extra vets, we called it after my first shooting phase (which happened on turn 2, gogogogadget reserve denial!) against a Mech Vulkan list.

[Sircyn]

I've temporarily turned to fantasy as my local store has got a bit tired of my Mech Guard, I've found people are still having trouble with all the armour saturation, especially when there are enough horde players around to prevent them over tooling against a Mech list. I want to try an infantry company list when I can stomach painting the other hundred guys.

I have a feeling we are going to enjoy a bit of a golden age until the two Eldar books get redone, which will put us back in our place methinks. I'm not sure if it will turn me against Mech, but it will certainly stop me face rolling over most of my opponents.

[fluffstalker]

I agree Sircyn, which Is why I wont actually ever start to bring the golden stuff into my list. At the most Im going to mechanize one company, but I dont think I could be so cruel as to stuff millions of AV 12 down my opponents throat, especially now that Ive moved to a new city and new club. If they prove to be very competitive even in casual games, Ill consider it. As for now Ill stick to my semi-horde of infantry. Im a napleonic history buff at heart, the idea of firing ranks of lasgun fire and then charging in a mass of men just never grows old, regardless of how ineffective it may be.

[Awilla the Hun]

Well, I've turned to fantasy for a bit, because the Red Guards are (in my mind) the single most insane, impotent, and cool army on Warseer.

However, I've also converted a Leman Russ Vanquisher using a Baneblade cannon (!) Any ideas on using these? I am not a great tank expert, but I felt that my list needed the Anti Tank firepower.

[Sircyn]

I got use out of taking them as a pair with hull LC, often as a squadron. They look awesome and can wreck up heavy tanks in the open, they are mobile and have great range and resilience. However cover and the lack of AP1 drastically reduces their capacity for killing vehicles. I wouldn't consider them points efficient and I wouldn't take them singly. I don't rate Pask in a Vanquisher as it doesnt solve the cover and damage chart problems while adding 33% to the cost, also reducing your mobility.

[freddieyu]

In all honesty, I can't recall the last time I lost with IG in a game that wasn't like a combat patrol or something. My last tournament, between the 3 games, I lost less than half the models in the army in total. And that was without *any* plasma weapons in the army The last time I played 2k with the PC sponsons and some extra vets, we called it after my first shooting phase (which happened on turn 2, gogogogadget reserve denial!) against a Mech Vulkan list.

I am eager and excited for the new Tyranid codex this January. That dex will be a metagame changer I bet, and will be a real challenge to any army out there, including mechanised IG and eldar (at least I hope so). While I do not play Nids, I have always had a soft spot for them, as for me they represent the true face of an alien race versus humans than any of the other xenos armies. An IG versus Nid army is the epitome of a 40k game for me, a classic starship troopers/aliens type battle, and it is those movies which I enjoyed watching the most...

[Lord Cook]

Even while moving, a single battle cannon is better vs infantry than two plasma cannons.

Guess it depends on your opposition and terrain. I've found them to be about the same.

...units with 2+ saves are inherently small in number and elite in nature. Such traits would call for weapons like plasma guns more, which can handle the units you stated above just as well

Aside from the fact that a plasma gun needs to be in assault range in order to attack those targets, most of which are either assault specialists like monstrous creatures, or have excellent close range weaponry, like Obliterators. Rest assured, my mechanised army has a healthy dose of plasma Veterans as well, so I appreciate the point that plasma guns are just as useful. But having a ranged option does make a difference.

You have to keep in mind that these units are much more likely to be spread out, thus negating the only advantage a plasma cannon has over a plasma gun

That is true. But remember that a direct hit is only a 33% chance. More likely you will scatter, and a unit fully spread out makes a much larger footprint to scatter onto. If the small blast does scatter it is no longer centred on one model, so you have a chance at hitting multiple models again. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that small units can nullify a small blast weapon quite effectively, but I think the effect is less than you make out.

Similarly, that's not to say a large blast does not have its own disadvantages. I've found it's not uncommon for enemy assault units to be in base contact with my vehicles when I'm shooting at them. They charged and stunned/immobilised the vehicle but did not wreck it. Would you agree that happens a fair bit? Well now a large blast is useless because I can't place it without hitting my own model, which is illegal. A volley of small blasts can still clear these units aside. Hardly a major advantage, but if we're going through all the less-obvious benefits and problems of each, it needs mentioning.

I personally find that movement on a Russ is not as important as you would take it. If you place it right during your deployment, you seldom have to move it around. I don't know what tables you play on or what opponents you play against, but in my experience a Russ has enough of a firing arc to cover a very good portion of the table...

Inevitably we will all have different terrain and different opponents. My regular playing area is a 6'x4' board, with terrain covering about 25 to 30% of the board, including plenty of large LOS-blocking buildings. Regular opposition is Imperial Guard and Daemons. Finding a spot where anything at ground level can see more than about a third of the table is extremely difficult. Against Imperial Guard Russ tanks are needed to provide cover to lighter vehicles, and against Daemons, specialist assault units are landing all over the place, many of which have wings. Movement is not optional.

If one vehicle can see to shoot most of the board, I would consider that a lack of sufficient terrain.

AV11 is important, but again, not as much as you are making it out to be... I guess it depends on whether superior firepower is more important to you, or better defensive capabilities.

Have to disagree on the Av11. Becoming immune to regular troops and considerably more resistant to krak grenades is a major boost. But as you say, this is all very subjective. One could argue that better defensive capabilities keeps you alive longer, giving you more firepower overall, or alternatively having greater potential firepower in the first place means you don't need to stay alive as long.

Personally I would always go for the former option, and as I haven't lost any of my Leman Russ in battle for as long as I can remember, I'm confident that being active the entire game makes up for any loss in destructiveness. Again, personal preference.

The executioner... is the same cost as a Land Raider with sponsons, and relatively easily neutered without them...

Whoa! Who's advocating sponsons here?

...got a bit tired of my Mech Guard... I want to try an infantry company list when I can stomach painting the other hundred guys.

Had a chance to use my infantry army yesterday against another Guard army, on Seize Ground. Brilliant fun. Stracken, merged platoons and rough riders completely overran my opponent's infantry (also coincidentally consisting of merged platoons led by Stracken). Sanctioned Psykers (who do work on foot!), Heavy Weapons squads and Griffons provided covering fire, while Harker and his team proved incredibly mobile. Rough riders were running around all game planting hunting lances and krak grenades into the back of his Exterminator, I actually got some use out of the Incoming! order, and we culminated with an awesome Stracken vs Stracken duel (although in our defense we both had completely different counts-as models).

All in all a refreshing change from mechanised Veterans. I heartily recommend it.

[Uriain]

I believe this was discussed earlier (but for the life of me I cant find the page), but I have a quick question about anti tank set ups.

Currently I am building a fairly infantry heavy force, but have a couple of Russ chassis sitting around which I can make into Demolishers and regular LRBT's. I want to include 2 LRBT's and an Executioner as my "WTFpwn troops" option.

So my question is:

In a 1500pt list Would a 4 squad Platoon with Lascannon, a Chimelta Vet Squad, and 2 Devil Dogs/Hull MM be enough for Anti Tank ??

[**BaDaSsA**]

Urian, I have a great appreciation for the Devil Dog, but I have found through experience that the Hellhound/MM is a superior choice.

In fact, in my latest 1,500 IG list, I am using two Vendetta's and two HH/MM (squadroned), 4 Veteran squads in Chimera's (2 melta/2 plasma),and 1 CCS/Chimera (with an undetermined configuration).

Best of luck to ya!




Jason

[CKO]

I believe this was discussed earlier (but for the life of me I cant find the page), but I have a quick question about anti tank set ups.

Currently I am building a fairly infantry heavy force, but have a couple of Russ chassis sitting around which I can make into Demolishers and regular LRBT's. I want to include 2 LRBT's and an Executioner as my "WTFpwn troops" option.

So my question is:

In a 1500pt list Would a 4 squad Platoon with Lascannon, a Chimelta Vet Squad, and 2 Devil Dogs/Hull MM be enough for Anti Tank ??

More then enough, more then enough for 1500.