new fun build idea - Guard with multiple fast choices used to block fall back lanes with PBS to force morale checks to fail.
My Lord Cook, a question: has the Tactica Imperium changed since the first full draft was put up? Any articles added, for instance?
Now just doing Battle Reports.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191378 for the Red Guards
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196677 for my Imperial Guard.)
"this is the best 40k stuff I have ever read." (Carltmc)
Naturally, moving closer to the enemy is more dangerous but not necessarily by melta weapons.
The only reason why meltas would be a serious problem is if they get within 6" of you. Which you shouldn't allow to happen in any case, regardless of the tank in question. 24" is more than enough to out range melta equipped infantry with the possible exception of a multi-melta on a fast vehicle such as a bike. Or, logic forbid, a Devildog or some such nonsense.
If you can protect your tanks well there shouldn't be any reason why your Demolishers are being blown up more often by meltas than by other weapons.
I guess my next question to the Demolisher issue I am having, (not dieing from Melta weapons):
How do you protect your Demolisher from ranged attacks of all kinds?
How do you protect your Demolisher from assault attacks?
Infantry solves just about everything.
Anything else falls into the ranged AT category, in which case there is little you can do other than try to screen the tank with other tanks (chimeras are excellent) or try to take advantage of cover, which is hard for me with the terrain I play on.
Edit: The thing with ranged AT is that... they're ranged. This means that most of the time, your LRBTs sitting at the back of your deployment are just as vulnerable, if not more so than your Demolishers due to the lack of attention, meaning it will make an easier target for DS units and flankers.
Last edited by AllisterCaine; 17-11-2009 at 17:50.
Sorry for the lack of depth with my answers, just a quick reply.
Thinking of going the all 'veterans army' route. With a CCS in carapace armour and grenadier vets all chimeras. Tossing in a few LRBTs, a Hellhound, a Devil dog, and a Manticore.
Question is should I even both with the carapace armour at all?
just giving you a quick report on my antics at the GT Heat 2. I finished 25th out of 200-ish, and qualified for the UK Gt final (yay).
If I had won my last game I would have finished 7th, but when you're on table 8 at the GT heat, losing the game can drop you out of the qualifiers. Up ahead, we could see the tournament winners, already qualified, pushing to win the tournament, below us, the people desperate to win to qualify... so both my opponent and I played very very cagey, and end up with a zero-risk draw.
Just a few notes on each game, then a quick commentary on other guard lists I saw there.
I was using a very simple mech list with platoons and no veterans. It looks like this:
Company Command w/ 2 Flamers, 2 Meltaguns, Fleet master. In a Chimera w/Heavy Stubber.
2 Platoons, each with Command Sections w/ 4 Flamers, 2 Squads with Plasma guns and Lascannons, all mounted in Chimeras with heavy stubbers.
3 Russes, one Demolisher w/ Lascannon, Russ w/Lascannon, Russ w/Heavy flamer.
1500pts, 17kps (ugh)
I was a bit worried about lacking long range ways to hit AV12, and felt I was leaky on KPs, but my test games told me the list was very good in a take-all-comers environment.
Interestingly, the missions weren't rolled for, but at the start of each round they announced the deployment type and mission objective. Your score was calculated as 30 points for a win, 10 points for a draw, and 1 point for a loss. Victory Points scored (not VP total) were used as a tie breaker within each points bracket, which is interesting, as it rewards people who get stuck in over those who stooge about.
Game one: - Kill points, Pitched Battle vs. Orks
First game, nice opponent, good balanced Ork list. He had a couple of big Ork units, a couple of mobs in trukks, two full size buggy units, full size loota unit, Ghazghkull and the all-but-obligatory Mek with KFF. I deployed the chimeras in a line abreast, with the demolisher in the middle of the line, and a Leman Russ on either flank.
I killed both the Trukks, both the buggy units, both the Trukk mobs and the two characters. The trukks and buggys were slaughtered by multi laser fire, the trukk mobs died horribly under concentrated flamers, leaving ghaz on his own to be plasma gunned down.
I lost a couple of Chimeras to Lootas and Nobz hitting them. I found it unexpectedly hard to kill Lootas in cover at long range - if he ever started to take fire, they'd go to ground, and then it's like shooting marines. I probably should have ignored the closing mobs and finished off the lootas, but 30 Orks in the open, 12" away are much more tempting at short notice than 8 Orks who have gone to ground and aren't going to kill you next turn.
It was very close - I lost 9 KPs, and killed eight KP worth of his units. On VPs, it was 1012 to me vs. 1022 to him. Still, Guard KPs are horribly easy to get, and I felt lucky that the game ended when it did.
Lesson for us all Simple, but focus fire in KP games, regardless of threats or them having a cover save. Basic tactics, but hey, worth restating. Equally, large units in cover going to ground are incredibly hard to wipe out with just shooting.
Game Two - Capture and Control, Spearhead vs. Guard Mech Veterans
Interesting game, as it's the match up we've chatted about on this board quite a lot. He had six Chimeras with melta vets, with a mix of Lascannons and autocannons, and a command HQ. So, in terms of cost, he had a similar army to mine at BS4, but that BS4 came at the cost of my three Battletanks.
We both put our objective as far back as possible - meaning there was 6ft between the two of them. I dismounted my guard on my objective (the reverse slope of a hill). My plan was to send 4 empty chimeras to his objective on the flanks, while holding mine. Turn one, he rushed forward, leaving ten vets with a lascannon on his objective, smoked everything, braced for shooting. I fired 7 multilasers, 6 Lascannons, 2 Battlecannons and a Demolisher cannon, and he didn't even have to make a save. Next turn, he comes forward again, I fire again, including the plasma guns this time and with the 4 flanking chimeras getting side shots, at unsmoked vehicles, and again, nothing. Sigh.
He drives 12 again, and realises that if he dismounts and fires meltaguns now, he will not be in melta range, so he stays in the chimeras. Next turn, I kill or immobilise 5 of the tanks, flame lots of the survivors to death. He has dismounted squads do multiple assaults with meltabombs on two of the Leman Russes and a chimera (argh) and tank shocks the guard on the objective.
I surround the chimera on the objective, shoot it in the flanks...stun it. Then swarm in with frag grenades. Sadly, Frags are totally rubbish at killing vehicles . Even if it hasn't moved, 6s followed by 5s or 6s aren't great odds. And if it has moved, forget it.
I kill his dismounts with flamers, kill the chimera on the objective by meltagunning it - the troops inside die from the access point being blocked. As for contesting his objective, I managed immobilise all four tanks on the way. The distance was so long, especially firing for a couple of turns first, going flat out through terrain was the only way to get there. Sigh - Gamblers fallacy - you start thinking "It can't happen AGAIN!".
So, we end up with a draw, but I'd killed about 1200pts of his units, compared to minimal damage (500 ish points) of mine. Really good game, confirmed my suspicion that veterans can be outranged if you are willing to retreat - also my suspicion that they don't get a lot from the range on chimeras.
Still, once they got to me, they were totally awesome. I'd never considered the possibility of multiple meltabomb assaults from Vets, which were devastating. Equally, he could have sat back and possibly outshot me, with BS 4 heavy guns.
Lesson for us all: - Multiple Assaults with meltabomb vets are awesome! Avoid them at all costs. Equally, with a vet list, bear in mind that you CAN shoot it out at range if you don't like the odds. Plus, frag grenading vehicles is rubbish, don't bother if you have any better option.
Game Three - Seize Ground, Dawn of War vs. Chaos Marines
After a loss and a draw, I was way down, on table fifty. Sadly, with 2.3k VPs, I was pulled up to the higher 2 draws bracket. Even with two draws, I was shocked to be facing a hideous dual-lash Chaos army. It was 2 Winged Princes with lash, 2 Vindicators, 3 Obliterators and loads of Plague marines.
I deployed in line abreast on my table edge.
He went first, moved everything closer, failed to see anything. He packed his plague marines in tight, to get them through terrain. My turn, I realise...night fight...Oh cool, every tank has a free searchlight. So, I start lighting up Plague marines with Chimera searchlights. Three Chimeras in, I pick them up. BOOM BOOM two battlecannon rounds and loads of plague marines are dead - 8 with one round (yay). I mop up the most of the survivors with chimeras.
Lash princes come forward, Obliterators crack one chimera, a Command section disembarks and is lashed towards a prince. In my turn, I gun down the last of the Plague marines (guaranteeing a draw, as he has no scoring units left), and I charge the Prince with the command section. They die, but it costs him not being able to assault that turn.
I gun down the prince who was close, and advance towards the vindicators and obliterators. He bounces some rounds off the Russes, I demolish the Obliterators, killing one, Kill the other prince, and immobilize a Vindicator with side shots. With both princes dead, I rush forward in the following turn, and melta the remaining vindicator, and plasma gun the remaining Obliterator.
All in all, I was pleased to so convincingly win against one of those armies people fear on Warseer. To be fair, it's a bit rubbish vs. Mech Guard. I killed everything but one immobilised Vindicator.
Lessons for us all No word of a lie, Searchlights won me this game. Remember you have them, and that they're good one game in three. Use the Chimera searchlights first, and then have the Russes fire as soon as you get a target - the opposite to what you might otherwise do.
Other than that, bear in mind, in an objective game, wipe out the troops, and the worst you can do is draw. Oh, and Demon princes are really vulnerable to Multilasers and Heavy bolters.
Game Four - Raven Guard, Capture and Control on Pitched Battle
Came up against a pretty standard Shrike list. Shrike, Cassius, Assault Squad, TH Terminators, Land Raider Redeemer, 2 Tactical Squads and a vindicator. He opted not to outflank because he was afraid of the officer of the fleet.
Again, gunned down the troops, was assisted by him blowing some morale checks and running off the board. He advanced forward cautiously, hiding behind the landraider and not fleeting at all, which I'm not sure was the best idea. He said afterwards he was really worried about being battle cannoned, and didn't want to expose his assault marines to fire.
He did surprise me with a 12" move from the Landraider, disembark, fleet of six and then charge with the terminators. 26" charges aren't supposed to happen anymore are they? Still, having learned from my earlier mistake, I was spread out far enough he could assault more than two tanks. He broke a couple of chimeras, but then I "counter assaulted" with eight flamers and two heavy flamers, and that killed all the terminators, apart from Cassius.
I killed the assault squad the following turn (Lots of multilasers and heavy stubbers), and immobilised the LR with Bring it Down on Meltaguns. By this point, I had troops on both objectives, and he had Shrike on one wound and Cassius on one wound. I killed Shrike, but that T6 on Cassius shrugged everything off. I won, holding all the objectives.
Lessons for us all Fleet Officers really screw with your opponent's plans, especially if he's relying on Outflank or Deep Strike. Even if they don't seem to do anything, they can impact on your opponents plans and take them out of their comfort zone. Oh, and flamers rock. I did over 20 wounds with 8 normal flamers, and even TH terminators hate that.
Game Five - Dawn of War, Seize Ground, vs. Tyranids.
A really tough game. He had 5 Shooty Carnifexes (Venom Cannons and Barbed Stranglers), an uber Shooty tyrant (12 twin linked shots with devourers), 2 units of Gargoyles and 4 small units of Genestealers.
He decided to Outflank the Genestealers, which I thought was a bit risky, as 2 of the three objectives were on the right hand side of the board. Anyway, Gunned down the gargoyles early, then started focussing on the MCs one at a time.
The 4 units of stealers all popped up on turn two, exactly where he wanted them. Ahem. So much for the Navy.
They were spilt up enough that it was viable to drive 12", be at 12" range to the MC I was shooting at, and give out Bring it down! to both dismounted firing squads, while leaving all the infanty out of assault range/LoS. That tactic might come in useful with the new nid book, who knows. I was impressed by how much damage 7 Multilasers and 7 Heavy stubbers could put on to MCs, as well.
On turn 5 it was me losing, having just lost two chimeras and a Russ that were contesting one objective (to a multiple assault from 4 genestealers, sigh) on his turn, with the other two contested. Turn six, it was a draw, with me having cleared one objective and still contesting one other. Stupidly, I could have won that turn, but moved Guard off an objective to kill the Genestealers contesting it, without thinking. That was pretty dumb. Fortunately, we went to turn seven and I wiped him out.
He was a really good player, and I think he went all out for the turn five win (e.g. lots of things came out of cover/hiding to contest), hoping the game didn't carry on, but as we went to seven turns.
Lessons for us all Bring it down and Mech Guard are an awesome combo. But remember, you can, and probably should, do the dismount and shoot at the longest range you can, and use the Chimeras to block sight lines to the infantry if you can. In this competitive game, I was regularly taking five minutes to work out the perfect deployment - don't be afraid to step back and take a moment.
Game Six - Speahead, Killpoints, vs. Orks.
I was up against the Ork player from round one. By this point I had 6.2 VPs from 5 games, and thus was at the top of the 3 wins, 1 loss 1 draw bracket, while my opponent was on 3 wins, 2 draws. Both of us felt we needed a draw to qualify.
Anyway, we both played really, really cagey. I held everything in reserve, as did he, and our units arrived in dribs and drabs - except for his Lootas, which he deployed at the top of a huge building, where they could hit anything.
The one really interesting move in the game was when he spun his buggies and trukks all the way over to my side of the board, so they could hide behind a building, and still have a chance to get me. I realised he was very close to my board edge...and, in spearhead, your reserves can come on from anywhere on your table edge, not just in your original deployment zone.
I brought on two Leman Russes, and rolled a 6 on my first russes movement, rammed first the buggies (two St7 hits, killing both), then into the next two buggies, (two St8 hits, killing both) and then into the Mek's truck, (St9 hit, destroyed it - ramshackle took it to a bad place where the Orks died to ML/HB/HS) . The other rolled a 3 on its movement, and only managed to crush the remaining two buggies
He sent some stuff forward, which died, as it had six feet to cover, and I lost a couple of units to Lootas immobilising/stunning Chimeras, and Orks catching them. Other than that, I lost the Russes on the daring commando ramming raid to Powerklaws, eventually.
The game ended on turn 5, with 6 Killpoints each. My silly risky ramming nonsense earned me 4 KPS for the cost of two, and dominated the course of the game, as his Orks struggled to kill them.
Lessons for us all Remember to look for Ramming opportunities, if you can see them. Ork vehicles are especially vulnerable to it, and they really struggle to deal with AV14 vehicles moving at Ramming speed.
Also, KP missions are horrible, horrible, horrible for Mech Guard. Any good ideas on how to deal with this? In hindsight, I think i would have been better to get stuck in, rather than avoid fighting, if I was looking for a win.
Guard in the tournament in General
Three other guard players qualified - i.e. came in the top 45. There were 19 Guard armies at the tournament. Aside from my mech Guard, Alex Fennel came 7th with a merged platoon all foot infantry list with 155 Vostroyans (lovely movement trays) and Gianna Vacca came 10th with a very balanced list, with foot platoons, mech veterans, tanks, artillery and rough riders.
One other chap qualified, coming 40th, but I didn't see what was in his list. Lots of valkyries, vendettas and chimeras were in evidence, but by game five, they were mostly all lower down the tab. Some of the armies I saw were bizarre - e.g. one army that had two units of three valkyries with hellstrikes (!), and a pair of Punishers with Plasma cannons, with two ten man guard squads with bastonne in one, and harker in the other... and a pair of command HQs. Hardly the most competitive list i've ever seen, put it that way.
The tournament was won overall by an Ork player who won all six games, with a battlewagon/Nobz biker list. 2nd was a lash prince list, third was a jetbike Seer Council. The one big surprise was that no-one playing Space Wolves qualified.
This was partly because two Space Wolf players who were dominating the top tables for the first four rounds were all but disqualified (-40 from their gaming score), when someone noticed they were using illegal lists.
To be fair to them, they are both lovely guys, and their lists were illegal not in a cheating way, but in a book keeping way. They didn't write down what their Rune Priest powers were - in every game, they had used the same powers, but still, the judges slapped them for it, hard. I felt it was a bit harsh, but could see why the judges penalised them for it.
Up till that point, they had both been doing very well. The SW lists they were using were Runepriests, Grey Hunters, Land Raiders. Not a list I expected, I must admit - I feared Thunderwolf spam, and wolf guard armies - but it is apparently very good. It plays a bit like Pedro marines, but just better and cheaper in every way.
Anyway, hope this is an interesting read! I'm off to the Final in March, seeing if I can get the nine KP valkyrie/vendetta list painted by then...
PS: - @ Lord Cook - Over the weekend, I found six scoring units was just about enough, but I still felt like I could have used more Other lists I considered had less scoring units, but over six games I never regretted having six scoring units. It's one of the big strengths of Guard; we should probably play to it.
@CKO: - Chimelta is an excellent, intuitive term that describes the melta vet list well. "Lemech" really doesn't work Come up with a better name for what is effectively my army...
Last edited by Steel Legion for Life; 17-11-2009 at 21:07.
Regarding Demolishers :
The problem with them is their range.
If you are using an agressive Mech Vet list then yes they will get "Melted" because you want them to keep up with you Chimeras. If your using a Semi Mech to infantry horde they will do better, as they have more things to protect them closer to them. Basically a spread out ~40 Vets don't protect a Demolisher, or any tank, as well as ~100 Guardsmen.
I have a semi Mech list with only ONE squads of Vets. My demolisher does BRILLIANTLY! Not in it's damage output, but in sucking in Heavy AT shots that would otherwise wreck the Chimera portion of my army. I also run an Exterminator and the only upgrades I give my 2 LRMBT's are Hull Laser Cannons.
Demolishers are great at attracting heavy AT fire because people FEAR them. That is why I recomend putting something equally scare along side of them like an Executioner. It works for me.
Steel Legion for Life: Great to hear you did so well! Keep up the good work, and thank you very very much for writing up such and indepth battle report > you get a Cookie ( not Lord Cook ).
Last edited by Thornz; 17-11-2009 at 19:12.
Kasrkins Imperial Guard
Thorran 77th - Mobile Infantry
Red, Yellow, & Blue Platoons
123rd Airbourne - 108th Recon - 42nd Armoured
Thanks for the awesome report SL4L! I see lots of the gimmicky SW lists but the best performer ends up being the Rune Priest Mech in my area.
My mech vets leak KP's like a bucket and I haven't a clue how to fix that for line mech. I played a mini doubles tourney at WW not long ago and had real difficulty dealing with Orks, cover and KP's in combination.
Lord Cook: I've always had three scoring units in my 1500pts mech vet list, I don't have much trouble with objectives, although my play style has to take the number of scoring units into account. I do rely more on my supporting units to do killing and in contesting enemy objectives. My scoring units tend to hold objectives closer to me and provide supporting fire, which has led me to emphasise plasma/AC vets rather than Chimelta spam as I have the flexibility to close or sit at range with them. My CCS gets melta guns and I don't expect my one Chimelta vet squad to make it home for tea and medals either.
The issue is, you can't have your cake and eat it. If your whole army relies on spamming cheap (and arguably grossly underpriced) Chimeras, KP missions will be indeed horrible. Maybe a couple of Vendettas instead of Chimeras would lower your number of KPs.My mech vets leak KP's like a bucket and I haven't a clue how to fix that for line mech. I played a mini doubles tourney at WW not long ago and had real difficulty dealing with Orks, cover and KP's in combination.
IG just in general have a problem with KP's, always have, always will. I don't think the game designers or tournament organizers ever really think about IG when designing game mechanics or objectives. You'll always see IG being weird and causing all sorts of havoc with stuff like that (like some tournaments requiring an Independent Character to be nominated as the army's commander for determing a victory condition, yet many IG armies have none).
I don't think the Chimera is grossly underpriced, it's still carrying very easy to kill dudes, has no side hatches, has huge AV10 flanks, etc. It's value comes in being able to use it like a bunker. Other than that it's not really all *that* impressive.If your whole army relies on spamming cheap (and arguably grossly underpriced) Chimeras
How were you dealing with their leadership? Commissar Lord or standard? As for threat range, worst case they have a 24" threat range with shooty death.My 5 Ogryn = Solid play with only one mishap, (They ran on an 11 roll for leadership against Karn and a squad of Beserkers. I killed the squad down to 2, but Gorechild made em run!)
Pros: Whenever I had the opponents CC units hit my lines I knew I had a squad that could help.
Cons: Even in a Chimera it was hard to be in the right spot and I misplaced them several times.
That's why melta vets are so popular. Since you face so many Raiders, you would probably do well to swap the sniper squads out for melta vets.Land Raider Spam: People complain about a lot and I understand it, but LR spam armies are the reason for so many redundant and boring lists. I feel bad enough about Chimera spam, but those are popped in droves throught games. LRs in excess is over the top - or at least over the top in games of 1500 or less.
Last edited by Juggalo; 18-11-2009 at 03:38.
I can see the chimera as being underpriced, as it comes with free heavy weapons, a pair of vehicle upgrades included, carries a solid 12 dudes...
it simply dovetails very nicely with our troops being very easily shot down, providing cover from the very weapons that are made to kill poorly armored low toughness troops.
but I also come from a background of Kult of Speed Orks and Siam Hann Vyper heavy armies, so any facing having armor higher than 10 is dead 'ard in my mind.
Related news: picked up 6 (!) Chimeras off of Bartertown, should be in the mail by tonight if they aren't already!
(will go very nicely with my converted exterminator and (mostly) scratchbuilt Canines (1BW, 2DD))
Hmm, not sure on your maths there. Comparing it to the current 35pt rhino, you get +1 AV on the front, -1 AV on the side... about the same. You get smoke launchers and searchlights with both.
Heavy flamers/bolters on vehicles are about 5pts on AV12 vehicles, multilasers about the same. The other advantage over the Rhino is 3 more fire points, which is very good. Still, you only really get a benefit from the extra firepoints with veterans, and you pay through the nose for them, and that extra special weapon. Occasionally, the five firepoints will come in useful, and you'll fire say three plasma guns, a lascannon and a plasma pistol out. Still, I think ten points is a fair price for 3 extra fire points.
The main reason Chimeras seem cheap is because they have great synergy with the army. I pay 65 for mine with Heavy stubbers, and find them excellent value. Hell for the last six years I paid 97 for them, and still liked them - but they were definately overcosted.
You also have to consider the value of the squad + transport. I pay 150 for flexible LC/PG guard squads, and that feels about right in terms of their game impact. The standard Demolitions-melta-autocannon unit is 195 - again, about fair in my mind. One other thing to consider in the cost debate is that they are a KP - this is one of the reasons why transports have all dropped in price in this edition.
@Cain1001 - I've been using Ogryns, led by Yarrick in quite a few friendly games since May. Crazy expensive, but very hard hitting. I found they didn't need a Chimera with Move,move,move and LD10, but it's definitely worth trying them on foot, as they are very resilient, especially with a cover save.
Last edited by Steel Legion for Life; 17-11-2009 at 21:36.
Concerning platoons and my lack of experience - can you seperate them into 10 man squads without the need to stay within 2" and does the platoon command squad do they same?
Yeah, if you don't combine squads, each infantry squad and command squad is a completely independent unit, and doesn't have any link to any other platoon unit.
The Platoon command section is totally independent as well, and can give orders to any unit in the army - units in other platoons, units that are totally independent, even their superior officers! More than once I've had my Creed equivalent in my Siegemasters army (Siege Marshal Haig) be ordered to go to ground by a Junior officer
Presumably they're shouting "SIR!! Get down sir!" and worrying about the VIP being hit on their section of trench...