Tactica Imperial Guard

[Captain Micha]

well the only times I've had any success with Sents, is when I squadron them *it gets their volume of fire high enough to actually do something*, I tend to run mine with Multilasers. *as they are cheaper that way.. and it's best to keep a pants unit cheap....* Autocannons might not be bad, but I think the lascannon for example costs waaay too much.

[Havock]

Grenade launchers are such a waste of the Veterans' BS. Just go plasma or melta, and you'll be happy.

There's one layout of vets that are 'allowed' to use GL's over anything else: Any squad led by harker.
3 grenade launchers (if you have the pts, add extra HB or AC?) means they will get ignored quite a lot. Which is good, in objective games.

[Badger[Fr]]

Deployment becomes very critical for a Non Mech player. It's actually the single most important stage whether you win or lose. (IMO)

He speaks the truth! I'd happily play second if that allows me to react properly to the enemy's deployment.

[Lord Cook]

Sorry guys, Is there any other way to get the tactica? Cause the link doesn't work for me (some web settings on the part of my colonel...)

Have you tried the alternative download from MegaUpload? If that doesn't work, and you've been blocked from any kind of internet download, I'm afraid I really don't know what to suggest. I could attempt to email it to you if you like. PM me your email address and I'll see what I can do.

[Uriain]

As much as I love my basic grunts, the Vets are better almost any way one looks at it, regardless of weapon loadout (except flamers). You get the same number of weapons, only at BS4, for cheaper...what else could we possibly discuss? Surely not the loss of an order per turn!

Hey, sorry to hit up on this topic here again, but you bring up my point exactly with your comment.. Everyone rely's on the BS4 and the slightly cheaper cost for the 2 squads of veterans.

A "Armored Fist" platoon has an extra Chimera (so more high str shots/flamer) and the possibility of an extra heavy weapon. Maybe I am mistaken, but I would assume that the extra utility of the Chimera, and the ability to have them all go off on their own (though, obviously not the smartest move) as a boon, and putting the Armored Fist platoon on a similar pedestal as the pair of veteran squads. Orders not withstanding, as you wont use them that much unless a transport gets pop'd.

Again though, maybe I am not understanding something which is making Veteran's THAT much better.

[withershadow]

IMHO, Mech IG depends too much on its transports. Chimeras are awesome fire support vehicles, but poor transports compared to Rhinos or Wave Serpents: they're slow and vulnerable, have to choose between mobility and firepower, and more significantly, their cargo cannot endure retaliation fire, contrary to Space Marines or Sisters of Battle.

Now that's just goofy. Wave Serpents? Sure... that's why we have Valkyries/Vendettas (although sadly not as dedicated transports), but the comparison to Rhinos is just nonsensical.

We have the same speed, and the Rhino has no firepower option to choose from! Having more options is not a bad thing. Mechanized guard relies on the transports for protection and additional firepower, not to go rushing like some crazy mutant maniacs straight at the enemy. Properly played, mechanized IG hang back at first, using all those lovely guns to thin out the enemy (particularly focusing on enemy transports and AT capabilities), and then run riot.

A basic guardsman squad with a grenade launcher and an autocannon is 65 points. A chimera with a multilaser, heavy flamer/heavy bolter, and heavy stubber is 65 points. If I could field chimeras without the troops, I would.

There's one layout of vets that are 'allowed' to use GL's over anything else: Any squad led by harker.
3 grenade launchers (if you have the pts, add extra HB or AC?) means they will get ignored quite a lot. Which is good, in objective games.

Brilliant, just brilliant.

Why would they get "ignored quite a lot"? Because grenade launchers are pretty pants, and don't contribute much of anything? So if you're designing a gimp squad whose sole purpose is to suck, do nothing, and therefore be ignored (even though if it's an objectives game, unless you're playing retarded chimps, they will target any and all troop choices regardless of their threat level), why would you spend more points on them? For the 3 heavy bolter shots? For the same points, you can buy them a chimera instead.

Hey, sorry to hit up on this topic here again, but you bring up my point exactly with your comment.. Everyone rely's on the BS4 and the slightly cheaper cost for the 2 squads of veterans.

A "Armored Fist" platoon has an extra Chimera (so more high str shots/flamer) and the possibility of an extra heavy weapon. Maybe I am mistaken, but I would assume that the extra utility of the Chimera, and the ability to have them all go off on their own (though, obviously not the smartest move) as a boon, and putting the Armored Fist platoon on a similar pedestal as the pair of veteran squads. Orders not withstanding, as you wont use them that much unless a transport gets pop'd.

Again though, maybe I am not understanding something which is making Veteran's THAT much better.

Er... the platoon you suggest is 45 points more before the addition of any special weapons.

[withershadow]

double post

[Badger[Fr]]

We have the same speed, and the Rhino has no firepower option to choose from!

And that's why the Rhino can move 12'' turn without wasting his (non-existent) firepower. Chimeras, on the other hand, must trade firepower for moblity.

Properly played, mechanized IG hang back at first, using all those lovely guns to thin out the enemy (particularly focusing on enemy transports and AT capabilities), and then run riot.

And there is the issue. Mechanized IG relies on short-ranged special weapons, and lacks long-range firepower. How do you expect to thin the enemy when most of your weapons have a 12'' range?

A basic guardsman squad with a grenade launcher and an autocannon is 65 points. A chimera with a multilaser, heavy flamer/heavy bolter, and heavy stubber is 65 points. If I could field chimeras without the troops, I would.

Chimeras are awesome, but I wouldn't use them as the backbone of my army. All it takes is a shaken result to neutralize one, whereas a combined IG platoon is nigh-impossible to stop.

[Vaktathi]

IMHO, Mech IG depends too much on its transports. Chimeras are awesome fire support vehicles, but poor transports compared to Rhinos or Wave Serpents: they're slow and vulnerable, have to choose between mobility and firepower, and more significantly, their cargo cannot endure retaliation fire, contrary to Space Marines or Sisters of Battle.

Don't forget however, that the Infantry can fire out of them practically at full effect (minus a couple lasguns, and who cares about them?). Paying 120pts for an mechanized infantry squad (meaning you can field a whole bunch of them) with a multilaser, heavy bolter/flamer, autocannon, grenade launcher, AV12 tank and 10 dudes when you can fire out the top with no penalty means you really don't ever have to disembark the dudes inside to face the enemies anti-infantry firepower until *they* go through the effort of killing the Chimera. While that's not particularly the toughest nut to crack, it's still not a walk in the park, and when you've got 9 chimera's on the board and 8 of them hold scoring units an opponent will either have to concentrate entirely on them (and will usually still be hard pressed to stop more than maybe 5 of them) and ignore your Leman Russ tanks, hellhounds, bassy's, valkyries, etc or just try and contest everything after killing your support units.

And there is the issue. Mechanized IG relies on short-ranged special weapons, and lacks long-range firepower. How do you expect to thin the enemy when most of your weapons have a 12'' range?

This is far from true. The Chimera's themselves can have 2 36" range weapons, and any heavy weapons infantry units can fire out the top. the way I use my mechanized army, I have 2 PCS's and 1 CCS that are loaded with special weapons, but even then only the CCS needs to be within 12". 4 GL's are cheap and decently ranged (24") and for a 105pt unit can put out quiet a bit of hurt, especially with a hull heavy flamer for when stuff gets up close. Meanwhile, the 6 infantry squads in their chimeras are free to shoot at range with their autocannons from within while the chimera blazes away with its two heavy weapons as well, creating a nice overlapping fire plan And that's all in addition to the Leman Russ tanks and Vendettas.

[withershadow]

And that's why the Rhino can move 12'' turn without wasting his (non-existent) firepower. Chimeras, on the other hand, must trade firepower for moblity.

Again, you're not rushing forward at the enemy like some retard-strong mutant (read: space marine). You can calmly relax and fire your guns at the enemy, and then use the chimeras mobility to capture objectives/corners later in the game.

And there is the issue. Mechanized IG relies on short-ranged special weapons, and lacks long-range firepower. How do you expect to thin the enemy when most of your weapons have a 12'' range?

No, not really. Sure, melta squads are short ranged, but plasma/ac squads are not. Switching all the chimeras to hull heavyflamers is overkill, so a number of them will have heavy bolters. Autocannons, multilasers, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers all have the range to reach out and touch someone from quite a ways away. Also, those chimeras are providing cover saves to manticores and russes.

Chimeras are awesome, but I wouldn't use them as the backbone of my army. All it takes is a shaken result to neutralize one, whereas a combined IG platoon is nigh-impossible to stop.

Pie plates and templates stop them well enough, even Ld9 can fail, and mega-platoons can only target one enemy at a time.

[Badger[Fr]]

ou can calmly relax and fire your guns at the enemy, and then use the chimeras mobility to capture objectives/corners later in the game.

But then, why would I field a transport vehicle if it barely moves during the whole game? I'd rather use the "Run, run, run" order if I need to grab an objective. I use Chimeras as an affordable way to protect my most vulnerable units and give mobility to my counter-assaut squads while providing cheap covering fire, but fielding a Chimera for its own sake makes no sense in my opinion. I'd rather have an infantry squad (whi is actually more accurate than a mechanized Vet squad, given the right order).

I have yet to see how the 40k meta-game will evolve, but I doubt the whole "Mechanized IG or nothing!" trend will last. I still remember how over-hyped Sternguard Veterans and Razorbacks (a mere 40 points for a twin-linked BS4 heavy bolter!) were. Mechanized Veterans are good, but hardly the be-all and end-all of Imperial armies.

Pie plates and templates stop them well enough, even Ld9 can fail, and mega-platoons can only target one enemy at a time.

It takes several pie plates to wipe out a combined IG squad in cover, whereas a single glance is more than enough to neutralize a Chimera for at least one turn. As far as morale is concerned, failing a re-rollable Ld9 test is very unlikely.

[Sircyn]

And there is the issue. Mechanized IG relies on short-ranged special weapons, and lacks long-range firepower. How do you expect to thin the enemy when most of your weapons have a 12'' range?


Chimeras are awesome, but I wouldn't use them as the backbone of my army. All it takes is a shaken result to neutralize one, whereas a combined IG platoon is nigh-impossible to stop.

Perhaps the people who only spam Chimelta squads and nothing else have range problems, but with all the awesome fast attack and heavy support slots open to the Guard as well as Plasma Guns and Autocannons at BS4 on veteran Squads I don't see much short ranged about it. With my mech guard army I tend to win my battles at the 24-48+ ranges when I am blasting enemy AT assets with my long range guns. The nifty thing is I also have the flexibility to move about and still fire to keep the enemy at my preferred engagement range or to rush objectives late game.

Yes a Chimera can be stunned and out of the game for a turn, but you need S6+ weapons to even have a go at doing that. When there are 2-3 Russ 2-3 Fast Attack options and maybe an artillery squadron as well, all armoured, all dealing ranged death you have to begin prioritising your limited AT assets. Funnily enough the Mech player will be pew pewing enemy AT assets at range to neutralise them and exponentially increase the effects of his armour advantage.

Every army brings enough guns to deal with hordes now a days, even my mech guard, but nobody can gamble on taking a whole army with enough heavy weapons to be immune to the raw armour saturation the guard can shove in peoples faces.

People are bringing armies to the table that can deal with over 120 Ork boyz, bringing a similar number of humans to the table in the current meta just doesn't cut it, especially considering the considerably lower flexibility and durability of the IG infantry options.

Edit:

But then, why would I field a transport vehicle if it barely moves during the whole game? I'd rather use the "Run, run, run" order if I need to grab an objective. I use Chimeras as an affordable way to protect my most vulnerable units and give mobility to my counter-assaut squads while providing cheap covering fire, but fielding a Chimera for its own sake makes no sense in my opinion. I'd rather have an infantry squad.


It takes several pie plates to wipe out a combined IG squad in cover, whereas a single glance is more than enough to neutralize a Chimera for at least one turn. As far as morale is concerned, failing a re-rollable Ld9 test is very unlikely.

That transport keeps the scoring, fire power rich units inside them safe from anti infantry fire and they contribute significantly to armour saturation, negating a large portion of the enemy fire power. The crux of a Mech army is to overload enemy At assets with a saturation of targets to dilute the AT fire, while focusing its own fire on said enemy AT. The Mech player will enjoy exponentially increasing resilience of his army as more and more enemy At assets are neutralised and thus creates an insurmountable kill gap as the enemy loses its capability to effectively deal with lots of armoured targets. So the Chimera is a fire power bunker, contributes to target saturation and can perform last turn objective grabs. Infantry without the Chimera are much more vulnerable are less mobile and are much more predictable in their use. They can also be tarpitted by walkers which is quite infuriating.

The thing is that single glance must be taken in the context of the whole army, there is redundancy and much more threatening targets for your heavy weapons to shoot at, you also have much more limited numbers of weapons that can get that glance compared to guns that will shred a T3 infantryman. I do agree that a merged platoon with Commissar isn't going to run very often, they are quite capable of dying to all sorts of nasty things.

Also, watch out for horrorfexes!

[withershadow]

But then, why would I field a transport vehicle if it barely moves during the whole game? I'd rather use the "Run, run, run" order if I need to grab an objective. I use Chimeras as an affordable way to protect my most vulnerable units and give mobility to my counter-assaut squads while providing cheap covering fire, but fielding a Chimera for its own sake makes no sense in my opinion. I'd rather have an infantry squad.

Uh dude... you just said it. It protects your more squishy models because an AV12 hull is significantly more survivable than T3 5+ bodies. It provides very decent firepower at longer ranges than the guardsmen. It is a far more reliable method for late-game objective grabs (move 12", turn around, disembark 2", run another 1-6"), rather than hoping to pass your order test and then roll a 6 for run distance for a max of 12".

[Badger[Fr]]

It protects your more squishy models because an AV12 hull is significantly more survivable than T3 5+ bodies.

Depends on the number of bodies. Survivability means nothing when your vehicle gets shaken and neither itself nor its cargo (unless it disembarks) can shoot during the following turn. On the other hand, an IG squad can lose half its models and still fire its heavy weapons with almost loss in terms of efficiency. Not to mention Close Combat: a combined squad can hold its own for a few turns, whereas a mechanized squad is dead the moment the enemy reaches it.

5th Edition improved vehicles survivability, but glancing them is no more harder than it used to be during 4th (unless they are in cover). Actually, stoping a Rhino in its tracks is much harder than preventing a Chimera from shooting.

Again, mechanized IG armies are efficient and competitive, that's a fact, but they're hardly the no-brainer some claim them to be. And they fail to use one of the IG's greatest assets: orders.

[freddieyu]

No mech armies are NOT no brainers, and many veteran guard players can play a balance of both infantry and "mech" and still win....pure mech (and mechvet) is NOT the only way to play the IG successfully..and over time this will be proven...

[Treadhead_1st]

Just one more question on Veterans for my part - what do you think is the best "tandem" squad for a Vet unit armed with Melta/Shotgun in a Valkyrie?

Should I double-up on the Melta units (seems a bit boring), Plasma seems a bit expensive and Snipers are relatively useless as they're jumping out planes - so are Grenade Launchers the only logical support? The rest of the unit will have Lasguns and possibly a Plasma Pistol on the Officer.

With the GL squad it means I have one unit that can dig in and fire up to 24" away while the Melta unit goes after tanks. Alas I don't have the points to pick up either Harker or any of the Specialisations, so it'll just be a "naked" squad bar special weapons and Sergeant options. Jumping out of a Hellstrike/Multi-laser/Heavy Bolter valk, what specials would you take to back-up the Melta-toting unit?

[Lord Cook]

mechanized IG armies... fail to use one of the IG's greatest assets: orders.

There are distinct types of mechanized army, personified in the difference between platoons and Veterans. An army made up of mechanized platoons fails to take advantage of orders, but it does have the long range firepower you gain from heavy weapons. Mechanized Veterans do indeed suffer from a lack of long range firepower (relative to normal Guard armies), however I can assure you that orders are central to their strategy. I would argue that orders are essential for mechanized Veterans.

[Gondorian]

One question regaring Sentinels: for an outflanking scout sentinel what better: ML or AC (3Str6 shots vs 2 Str7 shots)?And if you have 2 of them would you put them in a Squadron or run each one independent (of course having the fast slots available)?

To be honest both those weapons are pretty similar and can furfil the same roles. Personally, I have a slight preference to the autocannon as I find the additional strength and ap are more useful in my metagame, plus I never seem to do well when trying anti-tank with multilasers.
In regard to squadrons, keeping them apart means you can potentially engage two targets each turn instead of one, and even outflank from both sides which could put a lot of pressure on the enemy. That said they work best when supporting each other and your army. Keeping them together brings all their fire power in on one turn and denies the enemy an easy killpoint.
Also remember that an astropath can be really useful when you want to get these guys outflanking.

To be honest I'd advise you to try a few games with them and decide which way of doing things suits you best.

[Uriain]

One Quick thing I wanted to throw back out to withershadow

An Armored Fist Platoon costs 345 (Grenade Launchers and Auto Cannons)
a Pair of Vet Squads, costs 300 on the nose (Grenade Launchers and Auto Cannons)

I used the GL/AC as an example, the point difference will remain the same regardless what weapons you put in.

For a measly 45 points, you get an extra Chimera, Orders, AND the ability to attach 3 different targets.

*note*
Obviously with a Platoon your squads would hit something, adn the HQ would hit something else.. but the option is there.

On the ASpect of Sentinel's I find that Auto Cannon's work very well for me.. I have been using a pair of them lately and enjoy their power and abililty to outflank.. the only bad thing.. Not having them come in until turn 4 lol

[Colonel Jacka]

but overall it's a fine document for a brand-new IG/40K player.

WS,

Bugger you found the obvious mistake. Hmmm, yes that was one of the main aims of the doc! Does a good job at it I believe.