In which case the list with the Manticore would win - he can line his tanks up in front to give his Chimeras cover and hide his Manticore, and then rain death for a few turns and push for the objectives late on.
In which case the list with the Manticore would win - he can line his tanks up in front to give his Chimeras cover and hide his Manticore, and then rain death for a few turns and push for the objectives late on.
I'm surprised none of you spotted that you can't take power fists in Infantry squads, and your Commissar can't have one either.
While it's true that merged platoons are good at holding objectives, they are very expensive. Even with just three Infantry squads, the Command section and the Commissar, you're already paying 215 points basic, without any weapons upgrades at all. You'll need about 15 points a squad for the basic autocannon and grenade launcher, without which your damage potential is just too low. So that's another 60 points, assuming you gave three cheap specials to the Command section instead of one special and one heavy. That's 275 points in all. You could add power weapons for combat potential, but as this unit is specifically designed to stay back and hold the home objectives, you must have the heavy and special weapons so they can at least take part in the battle, so power weapons would be optional on top of that, for at least 40 points (three sergeants and one Commissar). By now we're at 315 points.
A Veteran squad with three plasma guns, a vox and a basic Chimera is 175 points. They have two heavy weapons from the Chimera and assuming the unit is stationary (like your platoon would be) they can fire all the specials as well out to 24". Less guns than the platoon, but generally better accuracy. This is even better if we add 10 points for an autocannon, making the unit 185 points but now very powerful, with the same number of heavy weapons as the platoon and almost as many specials.
The only thing the platoon has really going for it in return for costing ~130 points more is durability. But it's your only infantry choice in an army made up of tanks, so every Whirlwind, Griffon, burst cannon, etc. that wouldn't have a decent target against a pure mechanized list now has an ideal target in the form of your platoon. That's the problem with mixing one unit type into an army consisting almost entirely of another. It's not that your tanks aren't being as overpowering now, it's that your enemy's anti-infantry weapons are relevant again.
Finally, there's the issue with placing objectives. Most people automatically place objectives in cover. Your platoon would excel in such circumstances, entrenched in area terrain. However a mechanized list, as a whole, does not want the objectives to be in cover. I always place them out in the open. This way transports can reach them quickly, unimpeded by terrain, and the transport itself makes the infantry inside invulnerable unless it explodes. And if the vehicle is wrecked/explodes, the squad can take cover in the crater. Most importantly, when an enemy captures the objective he has no available cover, so it's easier to shoot them to bits.
Summary: I think that taking a few more things into account, the Veterans are durable enough. Not as much as the platoon, but considering the platoon costs so much more for the useful number of troops (3 Infantry squads), I'd prefer to stick with the pure mechanized lists.
An Exercise in Loyalty - Imperial Guard vs Blood Angels (2000 points), ooh pictures!
Hall of Fame - Best 40k pics old and new.
Oh the almighty train, we are getting into tactics to much it is pointless to go back and forth like this both list are almost equal in terms of power, eventhough it would be nice to get those powerfist in a merged squad.
Ninja
Phil Kelly is Tzeentch!
1) Let's be frank, either way it's still a fair bit of AV12 hulls.Originally Posted by Volandum
2) I am starting to see more lists with an extreme focus on wrecking AV11/12 mech armies. By increasing the number of AV 14 hulls, I atleast have a more reliable firebase, sure my AV 12 are still in trouble if I run into these lists but atleast my heavy support can shrug off those 45 lootas or 6 Vendettas (I suspect the new space wolf long fangs might join that growing list). I suppose however if I really wanted to go the full hog I would drop all AV 12 and just run AV14 and infantry. I would however rather avoid that, since many of our best choices are on the AV12 hull.
3) The primary reason is still the decrease in plasma shots for losing the vets, a battlecannon goes some way to mitigating that loss against several targets (obviously not 2+ saves however). The manticore will do sod all to a wall of fateweaver enchanced bloodcrushers for instance, where as the battlecannon will give a better account of itself.
You are of course absolutely correct, curse my inept platoon building. Powerfists replaced with power swords and grenade launchers.
I am genuinely sitting on the fence about the whole thing.
I completely accept the points relating to:
- The placement of objectives in and out of cover in the mech list.
- That vets can lay down a withering hail of firepower in 12/24 inch range, especially to MC's.
- The vets are possibily not as weak defensively as I may have first come across. That said, I suspect they'll kill a fair few of themselves with all those plasma shots.
I would perhaps clarify these points:
- Your cost comparison is comparing a full infantry platoon and command with a mechanised veteran squad. In this case it is a full infantry platoon and mechanised command (with 4 flamers) vs 2 mechanised veterans. The cost is basically the same in this instance.
- I do gain more than durability from the platoon. I gain access to a unit I can spam orders on and at leadership 9, the vet's will for the most part be in the chimera's. 3 twin-linked autocannons is a bit more at 48 inch range than what the vets can do, who may even be tempted to move. Massed lasgun's salvos can almost make up for the plasma gun loss in several instances. I also gain 4 flamers from the command platoon, a useful way of clearing away would be assaulters. I lose 1 killpoint, not much, but all mech guard lists are kill point heavy.
- While it is true that I suddenly allow my enemies anti-infantry weapons to come into effect I am not entirely sure it's as bad as first it seems. Flamers will certainly come into effect. Small arms will also have an impact but it could be argued that many small arms will either a) struggle to get in range quickly or b) be being used in a mechanised list, thus not been taken in particularly large numbers (sisters of battle not withstanding). When you look at alot of the common competitve armies, few of them are taking masses of small arms. Nidzilla? Bloodcrushers/Fatweaver? Mech Orks? Mech Eldar? Obliterator spams?. The Last group of anything strength 5+ heavy bolters, assault cannons, warp spiders, etc, I'd rather that stuff targeted the merged platoon dug in cover than trying to angle themselves flank shots on the chimera hulls or glancing the vendetta to death. Hell even the mighty light infantry killer the griffon, the shots aren't much worst for a direct hit for dug in squad that it is for side armour AV10. Anything that can ignore cover or throw bucket loads of dice in assault is a serious threat, but other than that I'm not that worried about their survivability.
On the other hand... I don't like the idea of the commissar dropping dead on a 4+ everytime a space wolf rune priest so much as goes within lasgun range, thus leaving the entire merged platoon woefully ill-prepared from all manner of nasty pointy sharp things coming there way. Maybe I'll just stick pure mech after all
Last edited by Asymmetric; 14-09-2009 at 14:32.
If anything, things will get better. The most recent crop of codices have been excellent, and that trend will probably continue. It's a lot easier to sell models with badass rules, than gimp-ass lemons.
Shall we talk about sentinels ? Does anybody here use any Sniper sentinels ?
What would be the Viablity of a squadron of 3 Sentinels with Camo netting sitting behind your lines and taking pot shots at the enemy. Or even better coming on the table, moving into position and then taking rear armor shots ? What would be the best gun for a squad like this ? Auto Cannon or Multi Laser ?
Also Would a squadron of Armored Sentinels with lascannons and netting be worth it ? Or would you be better off just getting a Executioner ?
Lupercal - We are returned!
Why does GW continue to allow Mat Ward to write fluff? Please, think of the kittens.
Sentinals- you need to look at how you could get the same kind of firepower into your force, and what else you could use the points and FOC slot for.
The multilaser and autocannon are only possibly useful as outflankers. There are too many other ways to get S6-7 weapons into the force, and frankly, I'd rather pay the extra 15-20pts, and get a free heavy flamer and transport capacity with my multilaser.
The lascannon is silly expensive, and outclassed by most other platform for them.
The plasma cannons, maybe one to act as a scary unit to herd marines. But take two, and you might as well have bough some AP 2 artillery, and 3 costs as much as an executioner with 5 shots and more armour...
EDIT Heavy flamers. Now these have potential. As people are not worried about deploying too close to the edge of the board against Guard ( as opposed to when you suspect there are outflanking genestealers about), you can come on and do some real damage with these, and are unlikey to miss. You might even be able to charge int o combat, and tie up units without S5+ CC weapons for some time-ie dev squads where the sergent forgo his fist,a s he's the ablitive wound....
Last edited by Bunnahabhain; 14-09-2009 at 09:24.
Occasionally accused of being helpful and constructive.
OneringBook to rule them all, oneringplace to find them, OneringCodex to bring them all, and in theDarknessfuture bind them. Time for the unified Marine Codex.
45 lootas = 30 S7 hits a turn = 1-2 AV12 kills a turn. You can take it. Particularly when you return fire and thin those out.
6 Vendettas? Well they can always outflank and get your Russes if they want to.
Hey guys, I am more going for fluff with this army. It is supposed to be a Sea to land attack force sorta like D-day. Tell me what you think. Will it be crushed or does it have some chance to win in casual gaming?
HQ
Command Squad
Commender
4 Vets 2 Grenade Launchers Vox
Officer of the Fleet 95
Chimera
HB/HB
Heavy Stubber
Dozer Blade
Camo Netting 95
Elites
Storm Tropper Squad
Sgarent
4 Troopers 2 Plasma Guns 115
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Troops
IPA
ICSA
Vox, 2 Grenade Launchers 45
Chimera
HB/HB, Heave Stubber 65
Infantry Squad A1
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Infantry Squad A2
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Infantry Squad A3
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
IPB
ICSB
Vox, 2 Grenade Launchers 45
Chimera
HB/HB, Heave Stubber 65
Infantry Squad B1
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Infantry Squad B2
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Infantry Squad B3
Vox 55
Chimera
Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer 55
Vets
2 Meltaguns 90
(In Vendetta)
FA
Devil Dog 120
Devil Dog 120
Vendetta 130
1700
Last edited by Beatomadic; 14-09-2009 at 23:40.
Check out my log HERE
I apologize I have a spelling disorder so if I have misspelled anything please let me know.
Games played with IG: 6
Won: 1 Lost:5
In the interest of objectivity I should probably point out that should your Chimera suffer an Explodes! result, you typically lose four or five Veterans in the explosion. Naturally, you can't palm off these casualties on the lasgun-wielding soldiers either, as it's completely randomised among your special weapon gunners and sergeant as well.
But if you want to use your Command section to provide orders then having to stay within 6" of your platoon rather defies half the point of being mechanised in the first place. That said, mechanising the Command section isn't something I'd considered, and does turn the overall plan into something I'd at least consider worthy of serious attention. So much so in fact that I'm going to go and tinker with some army lists on Excel to see what I can make of the idea.
Veterans are Ld8, even with the sergeant. More importantly, If your Command squad is hanging back to twin-link your autocannons, they can't readily support the Veterans, and I find orders to generally be an essential element in using mechanised Veterans.
I suppose it depends on opponent. Quite a few of my opponents seem happy to use Whirlwinds or Thunderfire cannons on a regular basis. Cover isn't worth jack when it's on fire.
I think you can get away with using Scout Sentinels as long range snipers. They are cheap enough, and by staying at extreme range (more than 40") should be out of range of the worst fire likely to come their way. Similarly having move through cover is very handy because it keeps them mobile even when skulking around in heavy cover, which they urgently need to counter their cardboard armour and tendency to violently explode with little provocation.
For Armoured Sentinels, I think they are just too expensive to use in a purely shooting role, so I would give them a cheap heavy weapon (like the autocannon) and then use them as combat denial, protecting troops or tanks from getting charged and tying up opponents in assault. They work well in protecting your board edges from War Walkers in particular, and they're murder on Bloodcrushers and other units with S5 or lower. The problem here is that this only really works when they are taken individually, and that drains Fast Attack choices very quickly and racks up the Kill Points as well.
Sentinels are decent, but there just seem to be better alternatives. Autocannon Sentinels are woefully outclassed by a Hydra. Lascannon Sentinels can't hope to compete with something like a Vendetta or Devil Dog for anti-tank. The only thing Sentinels have a real monopoly over is combat denial from Armoured Sentinels, and as I said that is far from ideal.
An Exercise in Loyalty - Imperial Guard vs Blood Angels (2000 points), ooh pictures!
Hall of Fame - Best 40k pics old and new.
Sure I can, I take 10 S4 hits, distributed as for shooting. So I'll roll the wounds and assign them to the people with lasguns.In the interest of objectivity I should probably point out that should your Chimera suffer an Explodes! result, you typically lose four or five Veterans in the explosion. Naturally, you can't palm off these casualties on the lasgun-wielding soldiers either, as it's completely randomised among your special weapon gunners and sergeant as well.
It averages as seven wounds. I have five guys with lasguns. The other five are either the sergeant, or have a special weapon or vox caster. I phrased it (very) badly but you're still losing some valuable guys.
An Exercise in Loyalty - Imperial Guard vs Blood Angels (2000 points), ooh pictures!
Hall of Fame - Best 40k pics old and new.
I was actually referring to the commissar enhanced platoon when I said ld 9. The sentence was misleading.
I suppose I'm ultimately of the opinion that Chimera's are worth it if nothing more for their armour saturation and fire power, the fact I can actually move my flamer armed platoon command around 12" should I choose to at a opportune moment is just the icing on the cake. Basically it at least grants me the option to go gunline or advance a lot of my army depending on the enemy. You could always give them something different than 4 flamers, grenade launchers would work just as well. You could juggle the points around for plasma or melta weapons as well, which may possibly make for a reintroduction of the manticore with more low ap covered.But if you want to use your Command section to provide orders then having to stay within 6" of your platoon rather defies half the point of being mechanised in the first place. That said, mechanising the Command section isn't something I'd considered, and does turn the overall plan into something I'd at least consider worthy of serious attention. So much so in fact that I'm going to go and tinker with some army lists on Excel to see what I can make of the idea.
By all means Lord Cook, try building a similar platoon with mechanised command in a mechanised list and report back how well (or not well) it turns out.
Last edited by Asymmetric; 14-09-2009 at 14:37.
I shall answer in the order questioned (sort of).
Yes, we shall. I use up to five sentinels in my lists, armed with whatever I feel like that day. Sniper sentinels, unless of the Armored variety seem like a waste to me. 3 Armored Sentinels with Camo Netting and just the basic load out is 195 points, for that price you are most likely better off with an Executioner.
Scouting Sentinels are the way to go IMO. They are excellent for taking care of those pesky Devastators/Havocs sitting behind enemy lines and sniping. They also have good use at taking side/rear shots at targets of opportunity. I prefer Autocannons on my Sentinels, but it is more of a fluff thing (STeG-4s have Autocannon) than any game utility. Both have about the same chance of penetrating on AV 10/11. For AV 12, you are going to want an Autocannon.
Last edited by Logarithm Udgaur; 14-09-2009 at 17:06.
Necromunda Log Type Thing
Cry 'Cheese,' and let slip the scrubs of war!
These guys should be 115 points, 85 is the cost with no upgrades.
Not sure if you remembered to pay for these guys or not. They should be 45 points.ICSA
Vox, 2 Grenade Launchers
Over all the list looks pretty competitive. Plenty of anti-horde, kinda light on the anti-tank, but most people seem to have stopped bothering with anything over AV12, so what you have should suffice.
Last edited by Logarithm Udgaur; 14-09-2009 at 17:07.
Necromunda Log Type Thing
Cry 'Cheese,' and let slip the scrubs of war!
This is all true, but armored sentinels do have a great use. They add to armor saturation when you no longer have troops to buy transports for, and they can stave off assaults by tying up the unit for a couple of turns.
Well, as Asymmetric already pointed out, a Chimera dramatically improves the Command Squad's durability and mobility,and provides another Av12 target, as well as two heavy weapons. Actually, I don't see why I would ever field a foot-slogging Command squad, considering the sheer mediocrity of its defensive upgrades.But if you want to use your Command section to provide orders then having to stay within 6" of your platoon rather defies half the point of being mechanised in the first place. That said, mechanising the Command section isn't something I'd considered, and does turn the overall plan into something I'd at least consider worthy of serious attention. So much so in fact that I'm going to go and tinker with some army lists on Excel to see what I can make of the idea.
I often field two Sentinels with Autocannons and HK Missiles, and they rarely disappoint me. The ability to tie up a squad or destroy an enemy vehicle hiding out of LOS can be a game winner. Plus, due to the increased cost of Power Fists, CC is no longer as dangerous as it used to be.Scouting Sentinels are the way to go IMO. They are excellent for taking care of those pesky Devastators/Havocs sitting behind enemy lines and sniping. They also have good use at taking side/rear shots at targets of opportunity. I prefer Autocannons on my Sentinels, but it is more of a fluff thing (STeG-4s have Autocannon) than any game utility. Both have about the same chance of penetrating on AV 10/11. For AV 12, you are going to want an Autocannon.
The main reason I can think of why one might field a Command Squad without a Chimera is if they take a commander with some sort of area effect ability (Straken, Commissars, Chenkov) that will not work inside an iron horse.
Necromunda Log Type Thing
Cry 'Cheese,' and let slip the scrubs of war!
Don't those abilities just measure from the hull?
They do indeed. That is a distinct improvement over measuring from an infantry model.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Lord Cook