Rules Questions

[GrogsnotPowwabomba]

1. If a genestealer engages a marine in CC but the result is a tie, what can the Marine do in his following phase. Can he move away, shoot, etc, or does he have to fight on.

The Marine is free to make any legal moves/actions in his turn. The previous combat has no consequence.

2. Overwatch. I have a few issues with this. If two (or more) genestealers are charging a marine on overwatch, what happens. Say the first genestealer made it three squares before being gunned down, does the second genestealer start to take fire from this square or does the genestealer take fire from all of the squares it moves through (even though it had a genestealer blocking it off for a lot of its move).

The second Genestealer will take fire from all squares it moves through, because the first Genestealer must begin and complete its action in its entirety before the second Genestealer can begin. Since the first Genestealer is dead and gone before the second one is moving, it is not blocking LOS in any way. Knowing this, it is best to first advance Genestealers in the rear of a group when possible as they will be shielded by the ones in the front and thus not come under fire from Overwatch.

[Colt3840]

1. If a genestealer engages a marine in CC but the result is a tie, what can the Marine do in his following phase. Can he move away, shoot, etc, or does he have to fight on.

The Marine is free to make any legal moves/actions in his turn. The previous combat has no consequence.



The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Geenstealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.

[Daemonslave]

The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Geenstealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.

Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.

Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.

[GrogsnotPowwabomba]

Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.

I'm not sure why you are attempting to correct him, because he said the same thing as you.

Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.

This is how it has always worked, and the rule has never been an issue. You have to think of it as a continuous hail of shots going down the corridor, and not as it actually plays out in the game mechanics. Overwatch is fine as it is and I think you would tip the balance too much in the favor of the Genestealers by altering this fundamental rule. But its your game in the end, so whatever floats your boat...

[AndrewGPaul]

The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Genestealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.

Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.

I'm not sure why you are attempting to correct him, because he said the same thing as you.

Not quite; Colt3480 appears to be saying that you cannot get a tie if both combatants are facing each other, and that Marines win ties in close combat. This is not the case.

[GrogsnotPowwabomba]

Not quite; Colt3480 appears to be saying that you cannot get a tie if both combatants are facing each other, and that Marines win ties in close combat. This is not the case.

Oh you are right, I missed that small point. My bad and my apologies.

My point on not altering Overwatch stands though.

[mattjgilbert]

OK, it's slightly later than I hoped but here is v0.2 of the Q&A. I might not have captured all the questions but in some cases that's because they haven't been answered yet!

Let me know what you think.

[mattjgilbert]

I'd like feedback on the question of whether the marine player is allowed to look at his command points once his action phase has started. I've currently worded the answer so that he cannot (as per a suggestion here) but is this right? I always played that the player could check at any time - plus there is nothing to stop the player writing it down somewhere or hiding a die to remind him of the number...

Thoughts?

[Patriarch]

Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.

That is how we played 1st ed for the first few games. Needless to say, the marines got slaughtered every single time (until we checked the rules properly).
Personally, I'm not sold on the sustained fire for overwatch, but that's the rule. If you think OW makes the marines too powerful, try losing SF.

I'd like feedback on the question of whether the marine player is allowed to look at his command points once his action phase has started. I've currently worded the answer so that he cannot (as per a suggestion here) but is this right? I always played that the player could check at any time - plus there is nothing to stop the player writing it down somewhere or hiding a die to remind him of the number...
Thoughts?

I think the marine should be able to check his CPs at any time. It's not like you keep the ammo expenditure secret. The only reason the stealer player even looks after these is to give him something to do during the marine turn (apart from remove dead stealers) and means the marine doesn't use up the timer on bookkeeping.
Keeping it secret is just forcing the marine to remember a number or lose the game - he's got enough things to be worried about.

P6: 1st question on P6 is not a "yes or no" question - the answer should be a little clearer ("yes he can shoot.").
Don't agree that assault cannon do not shoot at doors on OW.

[mattjgilbert]

I think the marine should be able to check his CPs at any time. It's not like you keep the ammo expenditure secret. The only reason the stealer player even looks after these is to give him something to do during the marine turn (apart from remove dead stealers) and means the marine doesn't use up the timer on bookkeeping.
Keeping it secret is just forcing the marine to remember a number or lose the game - he's got enough things to be worried about.

I'd prefer it to work this way. The secrecy thing seems a little strange to me too. If we get more votes for the marines being able to check the number... I'll amend the answer.

P6: 1st question on P6 is not a "yes or no" question - the answer should be a little clearer ("yes he can shoot.").

OK, I'll check that one and do that. Thanks.

Don't agree that assault cannon do not shoot at doors on OW.

Yeah I'm personally still undecided. Let's see if we can get a concensus and agree what the answer should be.

[GrogsnotPowwabomba]

Yeah I'm personally still undecided. Let's see if we can get a concensus and agree what the answer should be.

It doesn't say that the Assault Cannon must fire at the door, so they don't. I think this is because the ammunition is finite.

[Patriarch]

It doesn't say that the Assault Cannon must fire at the door, so they don't. I think this is because the ammunition is finite.

It doesn't say that they can shoot at doors at all. Since we are equating the AC with the SB because it is common sense/RAI, seems only fair you get the bad with the good.

Overwatch is essentially the same process no matter what you are using to shoot with - its a quick reaction shot towards sudden movement, without stopping to think if the shot is worth the ammo/risk of jamming.

[AndrewGPaul]

The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.

[GrogsnotPowwabomba]

The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.

Thank you for saying it better than me. This is exactly how I interpret it.

[destroyerlord]

I vote marines can check CPs at any time. I do it all the time, and like I said earlier, I don't believe loosing the game is meant to be a memory test, more like a cheating test.
I doubt we will get a consensus on the assault cannon rule, the problem being that overwatch and doors rule is in the storm bolter rules not in the general rules. SBs and flamers get specific mentions in the rules, but the AC does not. Thus the best we can do is interpret it how we feel it should be played, and everyone interprets things differently.

[TheSil]

I also vote for the checking of CP for the marine, same reasons as stated above.

I also have a few questions of my own, I recently unpacked my Space Hulk and played the first missions and the following things came up:

In mission 4 it says that the Space Marine player needs to "Fire into a room twice with his AC to clense it" and that he "can target empty spaces" to achieve this.
So what if he fires at a Genestealer in this room? Does this count toward the cleansing? I would naturally say it doesn't, but the rules explicitly stay "can" and not "must" target empty spaces. Additionally the flame thrower isn't limited in this way either and any Flame shot at a Genestealer will cleanse the room. However the Flamer is Area of Effect while the AC is not.


About the heavy flamer:
I was also wondering what a section was and the examples in the FAQ only partly answered my questions.
I am not sure how it works in corridors. You say a "corridor piece" can be from 1 up to 5 squares long, so I assume the intention is truly that it directly refers to the individual cardboard pieces that make up the map. Therefore in a corridor that consists of a 4 square and 5 square piece I could set only one of them on fire with a shot and not both right?
However it seems to me that the cardboard pieces are sometimes assembled in a unrepresentative way (probably to the fact that there is only a limited number of each)
The best example would be a 5 square long corridor that is assembled with a 2 square and 3 square piece (such as in map 4). Now you should theoretically be able to light a 5 square corridor, but if you take the individual cardboard pieces as natural boarders then you could only light either 2 or 3 fields, simply because you assembled it this way. (Which doesn't make any sense to me)
So is the answer that it can simply light "up to 5 squares of any corridor" no matter how long the corridor is? This way the 5 squares would have to be center of the template (which would have to be centered on the first Genestealer in LOS) and the two squares behind and in front of it. Can Brother Zael light himself on fire if he shoots a flamer into a corridor and the next Genestealer is 1 square away then?


Is there any reason why the weapons list on page 20 includes a storm bolter with sniper upgrade as 2.? Because I cannot see any rules for a sniper rifle anywhere. This weapon brings Brother Deino no advantage whatsoever right?


Finally I have a question about the lurking bit. It says that models have to lurk if a marine is "at least 6 squares away". How does this work with corners or other diagonal fields? A model is able to move diagonally, so let's say if you count movement steps it is 6 squares away. However if you count all squares on the way to the entry point you would include the square on the corner and suddenly the marine is 7 squares away. (I would say squares that can be jumped are discarded, but a confirmation would be nice)
Could you say that as soon as a Genestealer can theoretically enter the board and attack the marine (5 squares to move + 1 AP to attack = marine 6 squares away) in the first turn it has to lurk, otherwise it can attack. (I guess this is the purpose of the rule)
So the marine on page 16 of the rulebook would need to be two squares closer in order to block the second entry point as well?

[AndrewGPaul]

If the rules say "can target an empty square", this means exactly what it says - can, not must. It's only there so the 'stealer player can't force a loss by never putting a 'stealer into the target room.

The flamer affects one board section, precisely as written in the rules. Yes, this can be a single square (or 13 squares, if you fire into the 4x3 room or the room with 4 exits). The map should always be assembled precisely as shown in the diagrams (well, using the same shaped pieces - you don't have to slavishly use the same pieces with the same artwork), for exactly this reason.

By "weapons list on page 20", do you mean the picture? That's fluff, not rules. Deino fires the same as Goriel, Optio or Lorenzo do.

You mean 'stealers have to lurk if a Marine is 6 squares or less away. you can always count diagonally when measuring a distance.

[Patriarch]

The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.

Just to go to VERY silly RAW lengths here, I reread the rule in the Storm Bolter section. It actually states that a Marine on overwatch must shoot at doors which are closed in range and LOS.

What it specifically doesn't say is "a Marine with a Storm Bolter". It doesn't talk about what the marine is armed with; we are inferring that from the section its written in.

I think its a general rule they stuck in a not-quite-the-right-place, or forgot to cross-reference properly in the AC section. Doubtless this will be sorted with an official FAQ (and I'll be proved right ), in the meantime we'll all play the way we interpret it as per Destroyerlord.

Either way I can't imagine it changing many games, so I guess the unofficial FAQ to help players out it could be either way.

Still no answer on the "Marine" = Librarian/Seargeant question from the missions book!

In mission 4 it says that the Space Marine player needs to "Fire into a room twice with his AC to clense it" and that he "can target empty spaces" to achieve this.
So what if he fires at a Genestealer in this room? Does this count toward the cleansing?

No. Think of it as having to shoot the Techmarine - if you do this, you can't also be shooting a stealer except with an area weapon like the flamer.

About the heavy flamer:
I was also wondering what a section was and the examples in the FAQ only partly answered my questions.
I am not sure how it works in corridors. You say a "corridor piece" can be from 1 up to 5 squares long, so I assume the intention is truly that it directly refers to the individual cardboard pieces that make up the map. Therefore in a corridor that consists of a 4 square and 5 square piece I could set only one of them on fire with a shot and not both right?

It's entirely on the physical size of the board piece. A 2+3 corridor would take 2 shots to fill with flames, a 5-corridor would take only 1 shot. It's one of the abstractions of the game. You get the precise layout from the map; a 2+3 corridor is not a substitute for a 5 corridor.

Is there any reason why the weapons list on page 20 includes a storm bolter with sniper upgrade as 2.? Because I cannot see any rules for a sniper rifle anywhere. This weapon brings Brother Deino no advantage whatsoever right?

Correct, no advantage.

Finally I have a question about the lurking bit....

The easiest way to think of this is: could a stealer move onto the board and occupy a space currently occupied by a marine (assuming no barriers to movement). If yes, the stealer is within 6 squares and must lurk. Basically, there is no chance of a new stealer coming on to the board and attacking a marine in close combat; the marine always gets a chance to move away or set overwatch or whatever.

[TheSil]

No. Think of it as having to shoot the Techmarine - if you do this, you can't also be shooting a stealer except with an area weapon like the flamer.

Yes I thought so as well, on the other hand maybe you could say that the AC fires so many shots that it hits the Techmarine behind the stealer as well...
But if you are sure about this than a am very happy because its the much more logical solution.

[Leeman Russ]

Still no answer on the "Marine" = Librarian/Seargeant question from the missions book!

One way of answering this, in any situation, is that All Librarians/Sergeants etc. are Marines, but not all Marines are Librarians/Sergeants.

A Marine Sergeant still had to do his Marine training etc before he became a sergeant, ergo all Sergeants/Librarians are 'Marines with Storm Bolters', albeit with different abilities.