Rules Questions

[KaptiDavy]

Well I know there's no rule for the doors to be sealed, but if I want to play some old missions, I need a solution... that is not the rule system swap

The other question is quite clear though It's just my usual opponent's habit to convert almost every blip right before they come into play.. but they have to remain blips if forced to lurk, I see - thanks!

The 3 blips per entry zone rule is in the rulebook however, but the official FAQ says the other way, so WTF???

[wilsongrahams]

If you are playing old missions - use the old rules - walk up to it and close it as a door!

[KaptiDavy]

walk up to it and close it as a door

That would be my bet - knowing the similarities between editions... but I really don't wnat to use the old system

And about Lurking... does the FAQ overwrite the rulebook?

[wilsongrahams]

In my opinion no, only an Errata does that. I haven't checked either, buit I think 3 is fine. Why you'd want to keep more than that off board is beyond me.

As to using old rules - it's more using the proper mission objective than mixing editions etc. It's no different to destroying damping controls or cryogenic chambers - the old rules say score a hit, so do that with new weapons. Closing bulkheads is often a mission objective in the same way that in the new rules for mission 2 the entry areas can be sealed - assume the sealing in mission 2 is more securing and the bulkheads of other missions is a permanenet sealing off of other areas.

[KaptiDavy]

Now that's more like it
I asked this only because of the difference of the 1st and 2nd edition rules - I like it better when we actually have to spend that AP to secure the area....

[wilsongrahams]

Me too, though in 2nd ed there was no option of sealing areas in mission 2, and in 3rd ed (I can't say about 1st) it's an option only, and you can just sit back shooting, but I find the assault cannon will run out of ammo if you do that - the random deployment means he'll always be on point rather than the three bolters.

[KaptiDavy]

Some thoughts about Mission 2:

Reading the victory conditions carefully could shows that there are no chance of a tie, because the Genestealers actually MUST kill all Marines to achieve victory - and there's nothing written about conditions of a draw.
So using a turn counter is completely useless in this case...
The Marine player however can choose to achive victory by eliminating the genestealer force rather than sealing those entry ways (because that is written clerly in the description) - my opponent went into a room an shot my lovelies one by one

and I have a question too:

Same description says that the Marine player wins if he seals all entry ways. But we have to play along till the end of the Genestealer phase of the same turn that happens, right? So the marine blocking those entries can actually be killed... or should we play along till there are Genestealers on the board???

[wilsongrahams]

As far as I am aware, the game always ends the moment the victory conditions are met so it ends as soon as the entry areas are sealed. However, it would be difficult for a marine to do this without having already killed the genestealers coming from said entry areas. If there were genestealers in the entry area they would have been forced to lurk anyway and so would not be able to enter play and attack the marine before the end of the phase.

The discussion about tracking turns, was to avoid a situation where both players are holding position, refusing to go and attack their opponent, and I suggested adding a turn limit if this is to be an issue, or to add the option of a draw if neither player is willing to move and they agree to end the game so they can start a more enjoyable one. Another alternative is to allow infinite stealers and force the marines to seal the entry areas - delaying will achieve nothing here so the marines will advance.

[KaptiDavy]

I have outmaneuvered the remaining three stealers to seal the entry (in the south end of the map), but then one still could have reached me in the same turn - but were killed by overwatch fire...

It's actually the Mission Status Phase when the victory conditions are checked (by the rulebook)

[wilsongrahams]

"It's actually the Mission Status Phase when the victory conditions are checked (by the rulebook)"

You're right here. Well done that man - have a web-cookie!

[Baron Phlegm]

Destroying open doors sounds suspect to me.

- If in turn 1 you place a blip on the first square next to an entry area, in the following turn would you play that if you convert the blip, stealers can be placed off board, or are they lost (I suspect lost)?

Have seen the 3 blips per entry area rule, is there anything to stop you converting blips in entry areas to have 3 blips and a stack of stealers lurking off board?

[KaptiDavy]

Have seen the 3 blips per entry area rule, is there anything to stop you converting blips in entry areas to have 3 blips and a stack of stealers lurking off board?

Same question came up last time (my opponent always wants to do some bad tricks with the stealers, hehe)

See post #380 for the answer

So either you convert them to come to the board or step right in as a blip and convert them later.

There's no use converting them outside as the entry zones aren't part of the gaming area - so standing there your stealers won't be able to do anything

[Baron Phlegm]

Just had a swizz through the first edition rules.

In those you can have 3 blips and a maximum of 3 stealers lurking at each entry point.

Interestingly, a marine on the final square adjacent to the entry point could not attack lurking stealers, but stealers in the entry point can attack marines.

[KaptiDavy]

Attacking in and out of entry points is an interesting case, but 3rd edition says that the entry points are not part of the gaming area - blips waiting there have no role in the game.
Even the FAQs have nothing about these

and a question, of course

the FAQ says:

Q. Can the sustained fire bonus be carried over from the Genestealer player’s turn to the Space Marine
player’s turn?
A. Yes. Sustained fire is only lost due to the conditions described on page 19 of the rulebook. Note that
overwatch sustained fire is a separate condition and would not carry over.

I guess this is about firing in the Genestealer phase by spending a command point - and not hitting, then firing again in the next marine phase... but what about firing on the same stealer in two subsequent marine phases???

[wilsongrahams]

Good point. Whether it's supposed to carry over or not I've always treated each turn as a seperate entity and once a marine's activation is done, my memory of his actions is limited to whether he is on guard or overwatch, and that's it. I don't try to recall which marines should still be gaining bonuses etc. The turn sequence (player 1, then player 2) interrupts gameplay to make this seem the easiest method.

[Baron Phlegm]

Sustained fire through turns doesn't work for me - it's too unwieldy.

In a busy game you'd have to have a notepad handy to keep track of who'd done what.

Counter to the spirit of the game IMO, but whatever works for you.

[azhagmorglum]

You can convert any and all blips any time you want. [...]
This is how I've played it for 15 years without issue, and other players I know do the same. If it is wrong then everybody I know plays it wrong.

Even if it doesn't often matter, the rulebook states that if a blip has already been activated this turn (i.e moved, opened/closed a door) then it can't be revealed (page 16, under "voluntary conversion")

In other words, either you reveal it and then can activate the revealed genestealers, or the blip 's been activated and you can't reveal it (except of course if the activation puts the blip into a space marine's view, by opening a door for example)

As I said I don't recall where I read it but I'm sure the question came up somewhere and you can shoot a door from the clear side, in which case the whole section immediately becomes flamed, hitting models in it etc. I'd probably say you can't open it until proven otherwise though.

Page 12 : "...when open have no effect on the game" so you can't shoot/close assault an opened door.

You can't also open a door which is IN a flamed section (page 21 under "flamers and doors").
Nothing prevents you to destroy it from the clear side though, and the remaining squares of the section will be engulfed in flames, hitting any models that are on it.

the FAQ says:

Q. Can the sustained fire bonus be carried over from the Genestealer player’s turn to the Space Marine
player’s turn?
A. Yes. Sustained fire is only lost due to the conditions described on page 19 of the rulebook. Note that
overwatch sustained fire is a separate condition and would not carry over.

I guess this is about firing in the Genestealer phase by spending a command point - and not hitting, then firing again in the next marine phase... but what about firing on the same stealer in two subsequent marine phases???

Even if there's nothing preventing you from doing that, it is important to remember this sentence from page 19 :

"the sustainded fire bonus is lost if the SM takes any action other than a shoot action, or if the SM moves and fires, or if a model other than the target takes an action"

IMO, there is little chance you'll be able to carry your sustained fire bonus over another turn.

[KaptiDavy]

First, I have carried over the sustained fire bonus several times in today's game (keeping in mind the other rules about losing it, of course) - but I admit that it could be messy sometimes

Then we had the situation in Mission 3, when the whole thing about lurking stealers arose again
So if the stealer player wants to open the door on the picture, he has to move on to the map from spawn point B and open it, as the spawn points are not part of the game space (ie no blip or stealer can open it from spawn point A, as they cannot step into the map)

Or maybe we can convert the first blip outside, and open the door
But I don't think so....

[Baron Phlegm]

The entry area blip rules seem a bit daft in 3rd edition (taken word for word). I'd say it's an omission.

If you can't convert blips off board, a SM with line of sight to an entry square can block blip entry indefinitely (blip cannot enter line of sight).

[KaptiDavy]

Rulebook, page 16 (Voluntary Conversion, last sentence):

"The Genestealer player may choose to reveal a Blip that is off the board by an entry area"

There's nothing about lurking stealers, but they cannot be held off the board by leaving a marine with LOS to any entry areas

BUT this still leaves me with my question about that door in mission 3.... although we can assume that opening a door isn't that different from stepping onto the board (same AP cost for example) with a stealer converted off-board