2nd ED memories....

[Ramius4]

I would be very interested to see these, do you plan on posting them in rules development? I can imagine Tau being realy nasty in the shooty war that was 2nd

All this talk of 2nd ed has me longing to play again

For the Mods: I've been searching the forum rules just in case offering my fan made lists is against policy. I don't want to break any taboos here since I enjoy your site. If offering any of the stuff I mention below is strictly against the rules I will remove any such offers and refrain from doing so in the future.

I just discovered the intellectual property rules in the forum rules section, so I'm removing my offer of anything that might be construed as violating the rules here (i.e. much of the books I did that copied directly from GW publications). Sorry guys!

I may end up posting some of the stuff that is allowed in the future, however... Anyone who wants copies can email me for any of the stuff I've done.

Here's a list of what I've got *edit here* that is NOT copied from GW stuff (i.e. fan list type things). (I can't post much of it because the rulebooks, codexes, etc. are copied word for word for the most part and are still GW intellectual property).

FINISHED STUFF
Tau Codex
Necron Codex (not playtested enough yet, but we'll get there eventually)

WORKS IN PROGRESS
Dark Eldar

And of course the Army Force Organization charts. Here's the basic sneak peak of how that's set up...

Standard army organization chart.

Army size Characters Troops Elites Heavy Support
1000 – 1499 2 2+ 0 0
1500 – 1999 3 3+ 0 0
2000 – 2499 4 3+ 0-1 1
2500 – 2999 5 4+ 0-1 1
3000 – 3499 6 4+ 0-2 2
3500 – 3999 7 5+ 0-2 2
4000 – 4499 8 5+ 0-3 3


Dedicated transport vehicles: Some squads have the option of purchasing a dedicated transport vehicle, which do not come from a seperate slot in the organization chart. Squads that do so must start the game embarked on their vehicle.

Characters
One compulsory choice must be taken.
For every full 500 points played you have one Character slot. At 2000 points and every full 1000 after that, one of your choices may be a Mighty Hero.

Troops
One compulsory for each full 500 points played.
No maximum on your choices though.

Elites
One choice per full 1000 points played beginning with 2000 points.

Heavy Support
One choice per full 2000 points played.


Ultramarines Army Organization Chart As an example

Characters

Terminator Captain – Allows one additional Terminator Squad to be fielded, which does not count as your allotment for Elite choices.

Captain – If the Captain is on foot or wearing a Jump Pack he allows you to have one additional Veteran Squad to be fielded, which does not count as your allotment for Elite choices. If your Captain is mounted on a bike, then bike squadrons may be purchased from the Troops section.

Hero – No additional rules.

Company Standard – If the Company Standard is on foot or wearing a Jump Pack he allows you to have one additional Veteran Squad to be fielded, which does not count as your allotment for Elite choices. If your Company Standard is mounted on a bike, then bike squadrons may be purchased from the Troops section.

Chaplains – No additional rules.

Librarians – No additional rules.

Apothecary – If an Apothecary is present, then you may use the rules for medics in squads.

Techmarine – For each Techmarine present in your army, you may have up to one additional choice from the Heavy Support section of the army list. May be accompanied by a Servitor Bodyguard.

Veteran Sergeants – Do not count as a character choice.

Troops

Tactical Squad – May be mounted in a Rhino or Razorback.

Assault Squad – May be mounted in a Rhino or Razorback, but may not have jump packs if they are fielded in this way.

Scout Squad – Normal.

Elites

Terminators – May be mounted in a Land Raider.

0-1 Honor Guard - May be mounted in a Rhino or Razorback.

Veteran Squad – May be mounted in a Rhino or Razorback.

Bike Squadron – Normal.

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad – Normal. May be mounted in a Rhino or Razorback.

Landspeeder – Normal.

Attack Bike – Normal.

Support Weapons Battery – Up to three may be taken as a single choice. These include Mole Mortars, Thudd Guns, Tarantulas and Rapier Laser Destroyers.

Dreadnought – Normal.

Whirlwind – Normal.

Land Raider – Normal.

Predator – Normal.

Rhino – Normal.

Razorback – Normal.

Demolisher - Normal

[The Clairvoyant]

@Ramius4 very nice

I've also considered how to limit psykers to a total psychic level such as 1 psychic level per 500points, thereby allowing a L4 (or 2 level 2s) at 2000pts.

One of the problems with dark millennium was that it made anything less than a L4 psyker a waste of points.

I've also toyed with the idea of converting the psychic phase to be like 6th/7th ed WFB magic. A Force 1 would be a 5+ to cast, a Force 2 9+ and Force 3 12+.
That would give a basis for minor balancing of individual powers afterwards.

But that is all a lot of work, and i need to guarantee my good friend Finn Sourscowl is up for returning to the old days before starting work!

[Ramius4]

@Ramius4 very nice

I've also considered how to limit psykers to a total psychic level such as 1 psychic level per 500points, thereby allowing a L4 (or 2 level 2s) at 2000pts.

One of the problems with dark millennium was that it made anything less than a L4 psyker a waste of points.

I've also toyed with the idea of converting the psychic phase to be like 6th/7th ed WFB magic. A Force 1 would be a 5+ to cast, a Force 2 9+ and Force 3 12+.
That would give a basis for minor balancing of individual powers afterwards.

But that is all a lot of work, and i need to guarantee my good friend Finn Sourscowl is up for returning to the old days before starting work!

Thank you (the ultramarines chart is just a taste of what I've done).

Psykers under level 4 were never a waste of points. They didn't have any tougher of a time using powers than a level 4 did. The only difference was when Nullifying, you either had a +1 or -1 for being higher or lower.

My system inherently limits psykers already for the most part. You get no advantages for having one other than the psyker himself, making other choices like Captains and such more attractive in comparison.

I've worked on a verson of the psychic phase to make it work like it does in warhammer as well. I haven't used it yet though, it's still a WIP.

The issue with doing that is you end up where every game has psykers. As it stands now, you can get away with not bringing one because all you suffer is a -1 to nullify attempts. If it were like fantasy, you'd be obliged to bring one every game if only as a "scroll caddy" psyker so to speak.

So changing to a dice system doesn't really limit them, it just makes them even more common.

I just edited to add the stuff below. Maybe this will help you get started...

Keep in mind that this was never fully fleshed out, and I kind of dropped the idea. We toyed with it as a group and were never really happy with it. It took away the random nature of the cards

Psychic Phase Rules

Determining Force and Nullify Dice
You get 1 Force dice +1 per level of your psyker. Each player also has a base of 2 Force dice in each phase.

You get Nullify dice equal to half your psyker’s level, rounding up. Each player also has a base of 4 Nullify dice in each phase.

Alternatively, at the beginning of the psychic phase you may choose to convert any Force dice into Nullify dice that are added to your Nullify dice pool. Once you decide to convert dice into Nullify dice, you cannot change them back. This rule is intended to allow someone who is hopelessly outclassed in the psychic phase to fight a defensive battle with his own psykers.

Using Force and Nullify Dice
Each psychic phase, you will have a separate pool of Force and Nullify dice. You may use Force dice to cast your powers. Choose a power and roll the number of dice you choose up to 4 dice maximum. If you roll equal or higher than the power’s casting roll, then you have succeeded in casting the power.

The enemy may then attempt to nullify the power using his own pool of Nullify dice. In order to do so, he must equal or beat your casting roll. If a player wishes, he may also use his own Force dice as a Nullify dice for Nullify attempts. This is meant to be a slight balancing factor where players choose to overwhelm their opponent with superior numbers of psykers.

Order of the Psychic Phase
1 Each player determines the number of Force dice and Nullify dice they each have.
2 Beginning with the player whose turn it is, each player takes turns casting powers until all dice are used, or both players pass.

Maximum Dice for Using and Nullifying Powers
A psyker may use a maximum of 4 dice to cast a power. Certain Wargear cards may allow you to use more and will state that you may do so.

A psyker may use any amount of dice to Nullify.

Psychic Resistance
Some squads or characters have psychic resistance. This is generally between 1-3

Rolling Ultimate Force
If a psyker rolls three 6’s to cast a power, it will count as being cast with Ultimate Force.

Automatic Nullify Success, Destroy Power and Energy Drain
Double 6’s will automatically succeed in Nullifying an enemy power.

In addition, roll a further D6. On a roll of 1-3 Energy Drain takes effect, on a 4-6 Destroy Power takes effect. For Destroy Power use Force dice, just as you would Force cards.

Daemonic Attack
If a psyker rolls double 1’s while casting a power, treat it as if they had been Daemonic Attacked. Count the number of Force Cards you would normally use to cast the power for determining effects. For powers with different power levels, use the relevant one that you attempted to cast.

Psychic Duel and Reflection
If you match your opponent’s casting roll when Nullifying, you may attempt to either Psychic Duel an enemy psyker of your choice, or use Reflection if the power was cast within 6” of one of your psykers.

Storing Dice
Some Wargear allows you to store dice to use in the next psychic phase. Only Force Dice may be stored in this way. Stored dice may be used in the next psychic phase only by the psyker who stored them. Alternatively, at the beginning of the psychic phase you may choose to convert any stored Force dice into Nullify dice that are added to your Nullify dice pool.

ELDAR
Guide 7+ 10+
Fortune 7+
Destructor 10+
Executioner 7+ 10+ 13+
Doom 8+
Battle Fate 10+
Mind War 7+ 10+ 13+
Eldritch Storm 13+

BONESINGER

LIBRARIAN
Psychic Shield 7+
Teleportation 7+
Prescience 7+
Iron Arm 10+
Quickening 10+
Salamander 10+
Smite 13+
Strength of Mind 10+

ADEPTUS
Machine Curse 10+
Assail 9+
The Gate 7+
Displacement 10+
Carmine Assassin 8+
Hellfire 10+
Lightning Arc 12+
Scan 5+

INQUISITION
Purge Psyker 10+
Aura of Fortitude 9+
Vortex 15+
Holocaust 13+
Aura of Fire 7+
Destroy Daemon 10+
Scourging 7+
Storm of Wrath 13+

WEIRDBOY (Orks get extra dice instead of cards?)
Da Krunch 13+
Death Wave 13+
Waaagh! 13+
Squish 10+
Kop Dis 12+
Brain Bursta 10+
‘Eadbutz 7+
Power Vomit 10+

TYRANID
Warp Blast 3+ 8+ 11+ 14+
The Horror 7+ 9+ 11+
Catalyst 13+
Psychic Scream 10+
Hypnotic Gaze 7+

SQUAT
Force Dome 12+
Domination 7+
Hammer of Fury 13+
Mental Fortress 7+

SLAANESH
Acquiescence 7+
Beam of Slaanesh 10+
Fleshy Curse 13+
Pavane of Slaanesh 10+

TZEENTCH
Tzeentch’s Firestorm 13+
Bolt of Change 10+
Boon of Tzeentch 6+
Pink Fire of Tzeentch 7+

NURGLE
Plague Wind 14+
Aura of Decay 7+
Miasma of Pestilence 10+
Stream of Corruption 10+

NECRONS
Necron Lord gives you 1 additional Nullify dice
C’Tan each gives you 1 additional Nullify dice

Necron and Khorne Armies receive psychic resistance?

Psychic Hood (allows you to re-roll the dice to nullify powers. You must re-roll all of the dice)

Force Weapons (may store 1 or 2 dice depending on the type)

Aegis Suit (same as normal)

Hood of Hellfire (power level 6 bound power)

Purity Seals (psychic resistance 1)

Spirit Stone (gives the Farseer additional dice equal to his mastery level. You distribute the dice between your force and nullify dice equally with any remaining die randomly allocated.)

Nemesis Weapons (For Grey Knights they can only store up to 1 dice per squad. Independent characters that join squads may still store their own)

Collar of Khorne (completely immune to psychic powers)

Mark of Tzeentch (psychic resistance 2)

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Ramius: I have to admit that my group doesn't use psykers. I played with them a little in 2nd, but they were never a mainstay.

Just to be safe, I bought a librarian in terminator armor with a psychic hood, and he would basically run interference while I killed the other guy's stuff. The only psykers I ran into were Eldar, and Demonic Attack did both of those Farseers in when they went after me with Total Force.

Honestly if you want them that badly, use the cards. At least that's how I look at it. But I haven't fielded a psyker in 2nd ed. since 1998.

Regarding organization, it's interesting, but we pretty much go out of the book. The only difference is that we don't require a "lord" character to command. If you want, you can have a Veteran Sergeant or Exarch take command, particularly for a situation with only a few squads on each side. Seems silly to have a captain or Farseer leading essentially a platoon.

We keep the IG and Tyranid rules though, 'cause hive tyrants are essential and even the smallest IG force should have a captain running it.

While I can understand the need for people to use the org chart for tournament purposes, from a realism perspective, it isn't necessary. Not all forces of that size would be what we call "balanced."

For example: You are engaged in serious urban fighting near the center of the hive. The ideal force to crush the live out of the infestation would be terminators. Maybe three or four squads. Those could well be available, so that's a fair and reasonably army. Yes, it's tough, but also super-small.

We've done quite a few games where one side uses an oddly-shaped army as part of the scenario. (For example: A space marine force entirely of assault marines and speeders on a deep strike.)

I like that freedom. But campaign/scenario rules are great and I thank you for sharing that with us.

Indeed, the problem with the new rules is that they really choke the life out of the lists in terms of creativity. They impose a tournament-style balance that really isn't balanced (because everyone min-maxes it), which ruins the feel of the game.

AS FAR AS MOVEMENT, Poseidal I think has it summed up best: Is rough terrain the cause or the effect?

I think it goes farther than that, though. You could keep movement and randomize rough terrain simply by having players deduct d3" from their movement - assuming you have some overpowering need for it to be random.

As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense at this scale. At most, an inch is a few yards. Given the time/distance, you simply aren't going to have people move that unevenly. If they are, they will do it all the time, no exceptions.

Charges, everything should be random. There are games like that. Personally, I think it's silly, particularly at this scale. For armies moving over terrain, it's cool. Napoleonic, American Civil War - yeah, I can see it. A squad of troops on man-to-man scale? Silly.

[Ramius4]

Commissar, the psyker rules were experimental. We do use the cards. We typically don't load up on psykers anyways, we're not that kind of group.

We've let any character lead your army since probably 1990, even vet sergeants. So we're on the same page there.

As far as the army organization stuff, that's one of those things that we use probably 50% of the time honestly. It's something that puts more emphasis on the basic troops, which you don't see as much of in a lot of 2nd edition games.

Rediculous armies are rarely ever a problem in the group I play with though. Once in a great while one of us will go for one of those fun all or nothing armies, that you just KNOW if your opponent bought the right army, you're done! Those can be a blast.

One of my favorite memories was purchasing an all Death Company army of 2000 points. My opponent must've been on the same 'I'm gonna try something' wavelength since he brought an all Deathwing army. I got the first turn (which made it a good game), otherwise I'd have been toast. I was on him in my second turn and ended up wiping out his last Terminator with maybe 3 or 4 of my models left on the table. It was incredibly fun!

That was a min-max situation that had a fortunate outcome for both players as we enjoyed it a lot. I know what you mean about people min-maxing armies with the organization restrictions, however as 2nd edition is currently, there really are no restrictions beyond some fairly easy to abuse percentages. Again, it sounds like your group and mine aren't jerks about it, so it's good for us. But the majority of gamers out there could and did make lists that were pretty offensive back when the game was out.

Each to their own though right?

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Pretty much.

I think it all boils down to how you treat people. If you treat them like a bunch of cut-throat min-maxers and market the game as such, that is how it will be played.

GW could very easily have said: "No, this isn't acceptable, we aren't going to do that, etc." but instead they actually ran articles about how to make your army as beardy as possible. They condemned it, but everyone knew they didn't mean it.

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but the "open tournament" concept was what got this going: the idea that skill in 40k was as much about WHAT you took as HOW you used it. If they had been serious about tournaments, they would have created standard lists for each army and challenged the players to win the resulting games.

At that point, the creative energy of the players would have focused on tactics rather than army construction/rules lawyering.

Still, even with that, I found that 2nd ed. was still very balanced simply because all the weapons were so deadly. A bloodthirster in fantasy can run roughshod over just about anything. But in 40k, there are a half-dozen standard weapons that can take one down. I don't even need to list the ways, we all know them.

The cheaty combos that people bring up usually involved either 1) the Black Codex (assassins in particular) or 2) special characters. Cut out both of those, and the game is remarkably balanced.

But it all comes down to the players. 2nd ed. was a game for people coming together to have an enjoyable gaming experience. Maybe it takes a more mature person to appreciate that, but the subtlety of that edition is really nice. You don't just load up your superhero on terminator honors, wargear and a fast vehicle and hope the enemy rolls 1s.

No, you did think like screen your advance with smoke, cover your approaches with interlocking fields of fire, send out lead elements to draw their fire while holding your own heavy support in readiness to deliver a devastating counterblow.

I mean the whole overwatch/hidden thing gave a lot of the kiddies fits, but it's an essential part of modern/future combat. There's an art and a science into teasing units into exposing themselves or setting them up so that their only choices are to fire a -2 or get overrun without a fight.

Great stuff.

Anyone from Michigan? We need to start a club.

[Ramius4]

Commissar, I could have said all of that differently, but not better. I completely agree

[Loki73]

Wow this is threadtastic!


But it all comes down to the players. 2nd ed. was a game for people coming together to have an enjoyable gaming experience. Maybe it takes a more mature person to appreciate that, but the subtlety of that edition is really nice. You don't just load up your superhero on terminator honors, wargear and a fast vehicle and hope the enemy rolls 1s.


I agree completley! I have been challenging my local game store into non standard forms of play. ie troop choices abound. all infantry battles. assasination scenarios ect ect. its a rough battle. I have seen people get burned out because they obsess over the golden uber list of doom. What a pity. Fun has taken a back seat for most players.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Gee, I'm feelin' the love.

One of the (many) things I like about that edition is its flexibility. The mission cards were great for creating some tension but not ruining the core of the battle.

Instead of just doing one of x fixed scenarios (what was the default one? Cleanse?

The cards let you have each army do their own thing. For example, one army could be doing Take and Hold, while the other is trying to Assassinate their leader. Gee, just like in real life, sometimes things don't line up evenly.

I did a game a few years back where we had Chaos vs Tyranids. Chaos' mission was Dawn Raid. Tyranids were running Engage and Destroy.

Now think about that for a second. Chaos needs to go through the 'nids.

From the campaign we were running it make perfect sense: The 'nids wanted to feed, while Chaos, which had never encountered the 'nids, wanted to punch through the scouts they came across to find the main body and destroy it.

Needless to say, it was about as one-sided as it looks. My Khornites went tearing right into the heard of the horde...and pretty much got eaten.

You can read the whole sordid tale here.

Note that the link to the pictures is bad. Use this one.

[Ramius4]

Ohhh fun! That sounds a bit like when I decided (just for laughs mind you) to use my Blood Angels as an assault force against Tyranids. The thing is, it ALMOST worked. But the almost part was very tense for both players which made it an incredibly fun game.

Tyranids tend to come at you with Hormagaunts first, which assault marines can handle ok. I had just a few heavy bolters to thin the first waves. Behind that he had the meat of his army (Genestealers and the obligatory Warriors, etc.) Well... I had 2 10 man Veteran Assault squads all armed with Plasma Pistols. I thought I'd wait until his vanguard force was right in front of me, then jump pack over them so I could shoot his Genestealers. Once those were gone I didn't have a lot to fear.

Suffice to say, the jump went perfectly. The shooting phase was atrocious! Probably half my shots jammed, while the other half missed (needing only 2s!) The remaining hits weren't nearly enough to kill off the stealers, which promptly charged on his turn and ate up the marines.

We had some great laughs over that one and how my 'idiotic yet brilliant plan almost worked'.

Just for kicks, here's an alternate scenario based on what is used in Epic. I like mission cards too. One thing this scenario offers is multiple ways for both sides to try and win the game.

Place Objective Markers
Take it in turns, starting with the player with the lower strategy rating, to place one objective marker on the table. If both players have the same strategy rating then dice off to see who places the first objective marker. The first objective a player sets up must be placed on their own table edge. The remaining two objectives must be set up in their opponent’s half of the table, at least 12” away from the opponent’s table edge and 12” away from any other objectives that have already been placed. Keep placing objectives until six objective markers have been placed on the table in total. You can use anything as an objective marker but we would suggest using terrain pieces to represent them if you can. In our game,s we’ve found that battling over an actual bunker or fuel dump is far more appealing than having your forces sell their lives for a cardboard counter!
You capture an objective if you have a unit within 3” of it at the end of the turn and your opponent does not. An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 3” of it at the end of the turn. Units from broken squads or lone characters cannot capture or contest objectives.
Check at the end of each turn to see how many objectives you control. Objectives do not have a ‘memory’ and you will lose control of any you have captured if there are no friendly units within 3” of them at the end of any subsequent turn.

Set up Garrisons
The following types of units may be set up on the table as ‘garrisons’ at the start of the game:
• Units that are infiltrators OR
• Units where no one has a move greater than 6”, and where none of the models are vehicles OR
• Any units with a Movement of 0 (zero). Players take it in turns to set up one garrison at a time, starting with the player with the lower strategy rating. Garrisons must be set up so that they have at least one model within 3” of an objective in the player’s own half of the table. No units may be set up in the opponent’s half of the table or in impassable terrain. Units may be set up in difficult terrain (it’s assumed that they took their time getting into position in order to do so safely!)

Set-up Remaining units
All of the remaining units in the players’ armies must be set up within 6” of their own side’s table edge or be kept back ‘in reserve’. The players take it in turn to set up these formations one at a time, starting with the player with the higher strategy rating. Units kept in reserve are not ‘secret’ and your opponent may inspect them at any time.
Units being transported must start the game already loaded into the transport vehicle that will bring them into play. Units that are in reserve may not carry out any game functions or use special abilities they may have.

Victory Conditions
You must check to see if either player has won at the end of the third and fourth game turns. If neither player has won at the end of the fourth turn then the ‘tiebreaker’ rule is used to determine the winner. Each player is trying to achieve five things known as goals. You win if you have achieved two of these goals in the end phase of turns three or four, and you have achieved more goals than your opponent. The five goals are: Blitzkrieg, Break Their Spirit, Defend The Flag, Take And Hold, and They Shall Not Pass.

Blitzkrieg: You achieve this goal by capturing the objective that was set up on the opponent’s table edge at the start of the game (ie, the first objective each player set up).

Break Their Spirit: You achieve this goal by destroying (not breaking) the unit worth the most points in the opposing army. If several units are tied for the most points, you achieve this goal by destroying any one of them.

Defend The Flag: You achieve this goal if you control all three objectives in your half of the table.

Take And Hold: You achieve this goal by capturing a total of two objectives in your opponent’s half of the table.

They Shall Not Pass: You achieve this goal if there are no unbroken enemy units in your half of the table. If neither player has won at the end of the fourth or any subsequent turn then both players roll a D6 to see if the game carries on another turn or ends in a tiebreak.

If both players roll the same number then the game carries on for another turn and the players must roll again at the end of the next turn to see if the game ends or carries on another turn, and so on. If the players roll different numbers then the game ends in a tiebreak. Each player scores a number of victory points equal to the full points value of any enemy units that have been completely destroyed, plus the full points value of any enemy units that are broken and have been reduced to half strength or less, plus half the value of any unit reduced to half strength or less but is not broken, plus half the value of any unit that is broken but is above half strength. Whoever has the higher points score is the winner.
For the purpose of this rule, a unit’s ‘strength’ is equal to the number of models in the unit.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

We pretty much use the mission cards as is, but multiply the VP awards by 100.

We then give VPs for units based on their actual cost: full value for unit destroyed, half value if unit under 50 percent.

I like this system because you can take the objective and still lose if the price you paid was too high.

We generally use 5-turn games, though we have gone to 6 for large battles on larger boards.

[borithan]

As much as I liked half and quarter moves for terrain, it's one of the things that made 2nd ed. so much more shooty than later editions - stand 2" into woods and you know that M4 enemy models have to get within 6" to be able to charge you (and that it also put them in your charge range). The random difficult terrain move of 3rd and later makes it much more of a gamble.

While I agree with your reasoning for why the move stat has been removed (difficult terrain, charging and rapid fire) I kinda think a sci-fi game should be weighted towards shooting. The other sci-fi games I have come across assualt usuallky represents something different from 40k assualts (ie, close range fire fights, grenades etc. Now these are included in 40k assaults, but the major part does seem to actually represent people getting in each others faces and hitting them with something heavy and/or pointed), so the idea that the best assault units are those armed with swords or something similar is not present (Stargrunt, for example, has the best "assault" weapons being close range guns, like shotguns and sub-machine guns).

[Tethylis]

I kinda think a sci-fi game should be weighted towards shooting. (Stargrunt, for example, has the best "assault" weapons being close range guns, like shotguns and sub-machine guns).

I agree with this. Thats why I liked being able to actully use pistols in CC in 2nd, instead now my eldar still have perfectly good S4 shuriken pistols but have to whip you with the pistol butt instead of just shooting you in the face

It's kinda funny when you realize that the best way to take out a squad of fully armoured, very tough, nigh unkillable necron warriors is not by hosing them fully automatic small arms fire or even advanced plasma or melta weapons. No the best way to kill them is to knock a few of em down so they get scared and run away then chase after them and push them over!

Now why did'nt John Connor think of that trick

[Ramius4]

OK, so it would only work that extremely against M3 models. On the other hand that still leaves rapid-fire as a big reason unless you bumped up the average M stat to 6 as assault units with anything lower would face multiple rounds of double-tapping.

EDIT - M3 models, or almost anything else moving through difficult terrain, let alone very difficult terrain. As much as I liked half and quarter moves for terrain, it's one of the things that made 2nd ed. so much more shooty than later editions - stand 2" into woods and you know that M4 enemy models have to get within 6" to be able to charge you (and that it also put them in your charge range). The random difficult terrain move of 3rd and later makes it much more of a gamble.

I hate to break it to you, but woods (unless they were declared by the players as very 'thick forests') weren't difficult terrain. Terrain was much less restrictive on movement in 2nd than in current rules sets.

And the best part of that to me? The more terrain that you had on the table, made for a better game. And the fact that terrain was actually represented by the rules in a manner consistent with reality.

I know with a good deal of certainty that many of the players who felt 2nd edition was dominated by shooting were people that either didn't have access to sufficient terrain pieces, or just didn't realize what an effect it would have on their games.

Then to top that off, a lot of people would use the silly system of taking turns placing (some random amount of) terrain pieces. Well of course you're then going to end up with a rediculous killing field in the middle, and virtual 'terrain bunkers' in each deployment zone.

[IJW]

Fair enough, I didn't have the 2nd ed. rulebook to hand, and woods have counted as difficult terrain in all other editions of the game (including Rogue Trader). My mistake.

[Ramius4]

No biggie, just thought I'd point it out.

One of my favorite things about woods was that yes, a squad could sit 2" in and benefit from soft cover, but as long as the woods were large enough they had a difficult time covering in every direction. It made for some interesting tactics at times, especially if that squad had heavy weapons you wanted to avoid.

Trying to get around behind them, or in a position where the woods would also cover your own approach, etc.

Or being able to hide in terrain... Awesome. And the rules were very clear and concise for it too.

On an aside, yet related note. Two of the house rules we play with are that you could not charge a hidden model (unless detected/spotted), which makes sense. Another was that we never allowed models to turn when firing on overwatch.

The overwatch/turning question was always something of a bad FAQ from GW if you ask me.

[Finn Sourscowl]

But that is all a lot of work, and i need to guarantee my good friend Finn Sourscowl is up for returning to the old days before starting work!

Bring it on!

I don't know whether I'd want to stop playing 5th ed all together... Apoc is too much fun and thinking up rules for Mr Stompy and his mate that are balanced might be a bit tricky... all super heavies, come to think of it!

[Ramius4]

Bring it on!

I don't know whether I'd want to stop playing 5th ed all together... Apoc is too much fun and thinking up rules for Mr Stompy and his mate that are balanced might be a bit tricky... all super heavies, come to think of it!

I'll send you my Superheavy rules in just a bit. It's really not that difficult.

I also have the old Stompa datafax (which gives permission to photocopy on it, so I could get you a copy of that as well.)

Added Superheavy Rules below. I'll have to send you the Stompa and Baneblade datafaxes later (within the next couple days when I have time).

SUPER HEAVY VEHICLES

TERROR: Super Heavy vehicles are incredibly large and daunting to face and therefore cause Terror as described in the Psychology rules.

HULL POINTS: Super Heavy vehicles have far more mass than ordinary vehicles. It takes an incredible amount of firepower to noticeably damage their thick armor plating. To represent this ‘Hull Points’ are used; each Hull Point that a Super Heavy vehicle has allows it to ignore the effects of one penetrating hit on any armored location. Keep track of the number of penetrating hits that have been ignored in this way. Once the vehicle has ignored a number of hits equal to its total number of Hull Points it can then be damaged as normal. (For example, a Baneblade has 1 Hull Point so may ignore the first hit that penetrates its armor. Any further penetrating hits will roll on the appropriate damage table as for a normal vehicle).

Note that this is similar to the effect of the Ablative Armor vehicle Wargear card. However unlike Ablative Armor a Hull Point ignores ALL types of penetrating hits from any source, even from weapons that automatically penetrate armor.

MOVEMENT: A Super Heavy vehicle can move over low walls, hedges, rubble and trenches without penalty, knocking down walls and hedges and collapsing all trenches in its path.

MOVE OR FIRE WEAPONS: Super Heavy Vehicles are so large they may move and still fire weapons that are listed as ‘move or fire’ even for vehicles unless stated otherwise in its rules (a Demolisher Cannon for example).

[Commissar von Toussaint]

Back in the day, Armorcast made super-heavies - titans and the like. I recall a game where I went against some huge eldar vehicle and methodically shot it to pieces. Man, that thing absorbed some punishment.

Ramius is correct in that terrain was the essential component to a good game. No terrain = lame experience.

As I said before, what drew me in was all the cool terrain. People took multiple copies of Necromunda and piled them all together to create intricate walkways and then added their own buildings. Playing on that was a hoot.

I thought it was hilarious that GW had to produce a "city fight" supplement for a game of modern future combat because the core rules didn't actually work, you know, if you had dense terrain.

[Ramius4]

Back in the day, Armorcast made super-heavies - titans and the like. I recall a game where I went against some huge eldar vehicle and methodically shot it to pieces. Man, that thing absorbed some punishment.

I've still got an old Epicast Stompa *edit here* Along with the datafax that came with it. Also have the old Inquisitor magazines with the rules for all the Epicast Superheavies. I have to say though, their rules for them were a little clunky.

Ramius is correct in that terrain was the essential component to a good game. No terrain = lame experience.

As I said before, what drew me in was all the cool terrain. People took multiple copies of Necromunda and piled them all together to create intricate walkways and then added their own buildings. Playing on that was a hoot.

I thought it was hilarious that GW had to produce a "city fight" supplement for a game of modern future combat because the core rules didn't actually work, you know, if you had dense terrain.

No kidding. How many real life infantry armies would actually fight over the extremely open terrain you see in current 40K games? It gives me fits just thinking about it. Absolute suicide, armor or not!

I can remember back in I think it was 1999, one of the last times I ever bothered playing at a gaming store. My friend and I were playing 2nd ed and had a very nice looking setup on a sand table. Some younger guys (newer 40K players, who obviously used the new rules) were aghast at all the terrain. Asking us "how can you even move?" Lol...

I was facing his Eldar btw, and as his movement phase began, the people watching were awed by the sheer mobility of them and the tactics used to counter it, and started asking so many questions that it became difficult to actually play our game.

My friend (a very generous guy) had an extra copy of the rulebook and gave it to one of them. Not sure if they ever would have bothered to get into the game, but I'd like to think so.

Necromunda... Another awesome game.