2nd ED memories....

[AndrewGPaul]

The thing is, the newer Codexes restrict options, to attempt to make things more balanced. The 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines lets you build a Battle Company, a First Company veteran or Terminator force, or a Reserve Assault or Devastator force, without needing to proxy with Codex: Blood Angels or Dark Angels, or by using a specific Special Character. The price for relying on the game to enforce balance for you is that the in-game options don't allow you to model the setting as well as they used to. Sure, you can ignore the FOC or whatever, at which point I might as well play my own game.

[popisdead]

Ok, for you old guard out there, what good memories do you have from 2nd ed?

Unfortunately my memories are of Rogue Trader. My buddies and I discovered girls around the time of 2nd ed.

[Commissar von Toussaint]

The current edition isn't filled with rules telling you how not to build an army. It's a force-org thing now rather than the percentage thing then, not a whole lot different, nor complex.

No, it's not, but people seem to act as if it is, particularly in thread such as this.

It's not a rules thing, it's a codex thing. The codexes of 2nd ed. were out of whack and easy to abuse. That's a common complaint about 2nd ed and it's a valid complaint because the way the game manifested itself for many people was not ideal, and not something that I'd wish on the community again.

Please. The difference between the 2nd ed. codicies and the current ones is that the current ones are even cheatier. See, back in the day you as a gamer had the discretion to design an army that met with your idea of the fluff and fit with a given scenario.

What GW did since then is create the illusion of balance ("Look! A force org chart! Min-maxing is hereby abolished!") when all they did was replace one form of rules abuse with another. In 2nd ed., people didn't have to hop from codex to codex or use "counts as" or assign traits or do whatever slight-of-hand is required to build out the army that they wanted. If you wanted a fast attack army you simply took one, you didn't declare your red marines green and then do what you wanted.

To put it another way: The balance issues are still there, they just have an added layer of denial and hypocrisy to hide them.

As for gamer maturity, well, anybody that releases any product can have high hopes for how it's used. Thinking that 40K is going to manifest itself under ideal conditions for the majority of time is sort of a poor assumption. Designers can choose to be ok with misuse, or they can try to mitigate it as best they can in order to encourage a more coherent community.

You know, if the current (or impending) version of 40k fixed the balance issues and eliminated WAAC and all of that, I would enthusiastically support it. But it doesn't. It simply substitutes one form of imbalance for another - and the newer version is both more expensive and less intuitive.

Given the amount of people claiming that anyone liking 2nd is blinded by nostalgia, I think I am equally justified in saying that people touting the new version are blinded by their desire to be seen playing the "new cool" version. I find it interesting that while 2nd still has a community of adherents, the value of the successive editions is basically kindling. You can't even give away a 3rd ed. rule book - unless they are recycling paper. And the brilliant, insightful innovations of 4th? Whatever.

Those editions (like the current one) were sustained by the fact that they were current. There is nothing about them from a game design or fluff standpoint to sustain them once GW decrees their obsolescence.

That is what truly sets 2nd ed. apart.

[Grimbad]

Given the amount of people claiming that anyone liking 2nd is blinded by nostalgia, I think I am equally justified in saying that people touting the new version are blinded by their desire to be seen playing the "new cool" version. I find it interesting that while 2nd still has a community of adherents, the value of the successive editions is basically kindling. You can't even give away a 3rd ed. rule book - unless they are recycling paper. And the brilliant, insightful innovations of 4th? Whatever.

Those editions (like the current one) were sustained by the fact that they were current. There is nothing about them from a game design or fluff standpoint to sustain them once GW decrees their obsolescence.

That is what truly sets 2nd ed. apart.

Yep. And not to mention the fact that not all of us were around to play second edition in the nostalgic rose-tinted dreamtime, yet still find it preferable.

(the 3rd rulebook has nice illustrations)

[AndrewGPaul]

Commissar, I think the reason 2nd has more fans than 3rd or 4th edition is that 2nd edition is a totally different game, whereas 3rd, 4th and 5th editions are more like versions 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3; There are valid reasons, IMO, to play 2nd edition instead of or as well as 5th edition, but not so many to play 3rd or 4th.

I don't think 2nd edition is "better". I think it better suits the sorts of games I want to play, but unlike some people, I don't think that's the same thing.

[Novafix]

Having my 5 parry Dire Avenger Exarch take down a Lord of Change in Close Combat
Shooting at a Termie with a lone surviving Gretchin and dropping it with a Blunderbus.
Having my Farseer killed thanks to one of his guardians exploding due to acting very strangely when facing some Tyranids.
Tanks going out of control and ramming everything then exploding.

Fun times

[Inquisitor D'selinas]

Having my 5 parry Dire Avenger Exarch take down a Lord of Change in Close Combat
Shooting at a Termie with a lone surviving Gretchin and dropping it with a Blunderbus.
Having my Farseer killed thanks to one of his guardians exploding due to acting very strangely when facing some Tyranids.
Tanks going out of control and ramming everything then exploding.

Fun times

Gretchin with Blunderbus had to be one of the most dangerous units in 2nd Ed. Three of mine once took down a Renegade Imperial Guard Colonel with a conversion field in one gloriously unlikely volley
*sigh* I miss my Orks, may have to pack in the Tyranid list I'm building and restart Da Boyz!

How did you get five parries on the Exarch? Looking at the Eldar book I can only get to four, two swords and the Turn Aside Blow Exarch power.

[Novafix]

Gretchin with Blunderbus had to be one of the most dangerous units in 2nd Ed. Three of mine once took down a Renegade Imperial Guard Colonel with a conversion field in one gloriously unlikely volley
*sigh* I miss my Orks, may have to pack in the Tyranid list I'm building and restart Da Boyz!

How did you get five parries on the Exarch? Looking at the Eldar book I can only get to four, two swords and the Turn Aside Blow Exarch power.

You needed to use Jain Zar's weapon as that came with 2 all by itself

[AndrewGPaul]

One of my favourite memories is the Wolf Scout (back when they were raw recruits, not grizzled veterans) who took out two Deathwing Terminators with his shotgun.

[samzor]

I still play 2nd edition at home with friends. Google the battle bible, its a document which put as much of the rules, codexes into one place.(note some battle bibles had a lot of errors in them so having the original rulebook was good too)
2nd edition still feels more realistic and is more fun in my humble opinion.

Though as stated throughout this thread its easy to abuse the rules and build insane armies. And in my opinion the rules are not much more complex to remember than the current edition once learnt and practised. (plenty of role play games out there with more complex rules)

I also wrote a computer a program in python which did hand-to-hand combat fr you. Eg: rolled the dice for each trooper in h2h worked out ws+highest attacks gave the option to parry an attack add/subtract the critical hits/fumbles so for large games the combat would be done on the laptop next to the gaming table. Sure we were using a computerised random number generator (not pure chance like dice) to resolve dice rolls but it saved time in h2h.

We made our own quick reference sheets 4 pages in total which were much more complete than the ones provided with the boxed set (which contained the wargear and rulebook etc) so learning the game required less page turning. Eg: movement phase has emphasised the order of actions like:

1.(optional) Declare Overwatch Units/Squads
2.Declare Charges
3.Compulsory Moves
4.Move Chargers
5.Normal Moves (teleporting)
6a.(optional) Hide Normal Move units.
6b.(optional) Spot enemy units if in range.

And then a box nearby explaining in point form what the rules of each were.

And separate sheet covering vehicles. Moving them, shooting at/with them etc. Our own quick reference sheets follow a decision tree process. So say you're shooting at a vehicle youd make that decision follow the numbered steps. It reinforces your memory and avoids having too read paragraphs out of the rulebook.
Eg to hit a vehicle follow these steps:
1. Roll to hit + cumulative modifiers.

2. Roll D6 to determine location hit. (Re roll for locations impossible to hit due to line of fire)

3. (Optional) Place template marker hits partially covered locations on D6 4+.

4. Roll AP of weapon vs AV of vehicle location. Hits if >= to location.

5. Roll on vehicle damage table for damage results.



To hit modifiers:
Large Vehicle +1
Moving rate >=10” (moving at vehicles fast-speed)-1
Moving rate >=20” (moving at vehicles very fast-speed)-2
1/3 or more behind soft cover -1
1/3 or more behind hard cover -2

And we got the whole dark millenium computerised, warp card deck is cycled through etc etc.

My point being 2nd edition has its strengths and is super fun. But you have to do extra work at the beginning to make it a faster game for large battles.

[chriscrowing]

Reading this thread has reminded me of so many reasons why I fell in love with this hobby - that and being handed the original Realm of Chaos books by a neighbour at the age of 9. That stuff will INFLUENCE you at that age.

Ridiculous use of polymorphine and combat drugs (often together), the insane powers of psykers, characterful stuff like the Tyranid special effects, Space Marine Librarians teleporting around the battlefield decimating people, rolling BUCKETFULLS of dice when using assault cannons and heavy bolters, the codexes full of fluff. I recently re-found my 2nd Ed Angels of Death codex, sadly my space wolves, ultramarines, eldar and tyranids dexes all seem lost to the various house moves.

Sure, the game was a tad unbalanced (in favour of overpowered special characters and some frightfully obvious megalists) and more complicated and slow than it needed to be, but it was more characterful, engaging and... well, it was 40k.

Sad to see that Codexes have ceased to be an exercise in creative writing and have become more of an exercise in creating bland unit shifting units...

[Veteran Sergeant]

2nd Edition was actually a much better game, to be honest. And it's because around 3rd Edition, the game began to trend more towards Fantasy in Space. The power of melee and the importance of the Assault Phase increased dramatically as GW sought to streamline the game and make it run faster. While this streamlining helped immensely with 2nd Edition's cumbersome and time consuming Psychic Phase (I don't think anyone really misses that. We used to house-rule no psykers, and my FLGS at the time excluded them from its tournaments, lol), what it did was make the game harder to balance. In 2nd Edition, every army was a shooty army, even the Tyranids, it just did it differently. And that's because 2nd Edition was still focused on being a Sci-Fi wargame, and not some kind of weird, hybrid catch-all. Sure, there was melee, but melee specialist units did what they were supposed to do. You had to give them covering fire, and use them smartly. The reason there are so many complaints with 5th Edition's mech-heavy lists, and gripes that melee units are disadvantaged is because when you have so many types of armies to attempt to "balance", you create this bizarre, physics-flaunting teeter-totter.

But yeah, have to add another vote to the idea that the newer codex books don't offer any more inherent balance with the FOC. Seems like there are just as many exploitative lists and broken Special Characters in 5th as there were in 2nd.

[Azazyll]

Have to say this was not my experience of second edition at all. I remember everyone being rightly terrified of my friend's genestealers, which scythed through any unit put in front of them. I still run combat heavy lists vecause I really never got over that fear. And we all adored the psyker rules from Dark Millenium immensely - they really made the game fun. I couldn't wait for the psychic phase every turn. And a turn towards fantasy? That's a bit weird to say, since until 3rd ed wh40k's rules were identical to fantasy rules.

[Orion pax]

ork splatta cannons were crazy

[murgel2006]

Players were older. Back then people playing were 16 at the youngest.
Wrong? in the UK may be but over here, we had to be able to read and understand English.

This made for very little codex abuse and for wonderful games of fun.
My worst memory is the shock when a bunch of IG killing of my Deathwing-Terminators in one round, the first round.
My best are about the long evenings of discussions with chips and red wine.

[Dog of destiny]

My enduring memory of 2nd ed. was repeatedly shooting my friend's Avatar in the face with an assault cannon every time he used it. It never survived long enough to get into combat. Most hilarious moment was probably when a shot from an ork shock attack gun scattered into my unit of Terminators in combat with a unit of mega armoured nobbs and wiped the whole lot out in a freakish storm of dice rolling. Funny as f....

[hobojebus]

Fire immune terminators with a 3+ save on 2d6...oh yeah them were the days.

[Darth Bobo]

I miss the fluff from the 2nd edition codexes, luckily I still have my 2nd edition Eldar Codex, which leads me to Warp Spider Exarchs with Firelances

Warp in - shoot melta 18 inches - warp out, best way to counter people bringing terminators with assault cannons and putting them on overwatch turn one.

[Inquisitor D'selinas]

Fire immune terminators with a 3+ save on 2d6...oh yeah them were the days.

Not that they were immune, they still took wounds from the initial hit and subsequent tests if they caught fire. They simply ignored the movement penalty of running around, arms flailing, if they did catch fire.

[DavidSL]

I haven't played any tabletop war games in over 10 years, and I miss it thoroughly. I dropped out in the late nineties, and 2nd Edition 40k was a huge part of my life back then.

One of the main things I remember was Tyranids. The day I started playing Tyranids was like a kick in the nuts to my gaming friend at the time. He was obsessed with Eldar, and I was all over the place with my armies. Tyranids came into my life and I suddenly had hugely powerful troops at my disposal. I remember Genestealers being devastating if they got close enough to any troops, though I understand now they are quite a lot weaker. I believe against most tactical units the Genestealers were very hard to beat in hand-to-hand contact. I loved them. And the Carnifex! I can't remember what it was, but an armour save on 3D6 I believe - a very low armour save that meant unless you had a tank you pretty much had no chance to kill it. I loved 40k, but it seems like all the fun has been zapped out of it.

One last unit I remember are some short squat-like fellows with sniper rifles as allies to the Imperial Guard. What were they? They were amazing at sniping with something like a 36" range and amazing accuracy. I believe they were so good that my friend actually convinced me to swap with him so that he could have them in his army. I did it! What a fool!

Main thing I remember about this time in the hobby is little things like the above, the swapping, the mind-changing, the constant want for different armies because of cool new features. I remember it being an innocent time of pure fun, ignoring the business side of GW because of the awesome content and battle reports they were putting out. It's a shame it appears to be no longer like that.