Codex: Harlequins

[djinn8]

You did notice that it has built-in Holo Fields, yes? That upgrade alone is worth quite a bit, especially for such a fragile vehicle. I might consider bringing it down in price a bit, but I think 50 points is taking it too far.

Yeah you might be right. To be honest I forgot about the Holo Field, and didn't take the charge distance into account.

Conceal is lifted straight from the Eldar Codex, and is intended primarily for use on the Aspirant Ensemble

You might want to re-write the Aspirant entry then. It says in their rules entry that they can't benefit from Conceal.

Hmm... I was coming off of the Wraithlord, and trying to make it just a little more nimble, but I may not have gone far enough. I never even considered giving it the Dance of Death and Fleet abilities. I am definitely doing so now.

Eternal War-now why didn't I think of that?

[kraken]

Hello again, thanks for working through my ideas, I love bouncing stuff around with like minded peeps.

ok here goes.

Im sticking to my guns on the GH he needs ws 7 and four attacks the masks do need something , or as I said before they should at least equal if not better the BA masks (I'm looking at you Dante') one idea I had was that on the first round of any combat one of the masks could cause the enemies in b2b take a ld check on 3d6 or they have to half their WS for that round ? just makes it harder for a few enemy models to hit the quins for one round ?

just a note but holo's are honestly worth less on light open topped skimmers than they would be on say a tank ? that 'opened topped' +1 plus the immobilized = destroyed rule on skimmers and lack of weapons to soak wep destroyed results means it won't make a huge difference,

I always thought holo's should give a cover save based on how fast the vehicle went eg. 0-6" 5+ 6-12" 4+ and 12-24" 3+ and using star engines would confer a further +1 that would actually be WORTH 35 points a go especially since everyone else gets smoke anyway and the new shooting rules mean that in order to actually get a reasonable save you won't be putting down much firepower.

"Lets put a smile on that face"

you should try phase shifting Vet death jesters tis seriously 'funny' ..... makes your opponent have to seriously consider removing him rather than putting a few 'spare' shots in his direction, my opponents always seem to have 90 missile launchers or some such these days, I would not expect the DJ in his current format to last, making him phase shift like I suggested would force them to choose between ignoring him or dedicating something to his removal, that way he is more likely to make his points back even if he kills very little .

on the subject of rending,i can assure you it is supposed to be representative of the qualities of a high velocity molecular wire, if they penetrate they scramble you like an egg does not matter how big you are, obviously going to be more effective when aiming at weak spots (like any weapon no ?) , all the old eldar molecular weps always had a chance to penetrate even the thickest armour (warpspider deathspinners too) and again assuming that the template 2 str 6 rending weapon for the BA dreadnoughts is not broken I don't see why the marionette could not mount one that has 'only' one template.

While I'm on the marionette as it is a 0-1 i think dance of death and fleet would be an excellent addition it's far from broken (maybe when it fleets you could add +1 to holo saves ? ) I also think that maybe two should be available ? either that or make it a 'unique' special character ? (I think one or two special characters for the list could be fun to put together)

my current ideas on the Solitaire include ,possibly giving him a power bump and making him a special character ?

Regardless I really think he needs either (1.) EW and /or (2.) the thing I suggested making people re-roll successful shooting at him and a bump to WS9 (meaning ws 4 models hit on 5's). if only choosing one of the two I would prefer the latter as it is something more unique to the solitaire rather than just 'another' EW character.

I really think the focus should be kept on using skill speed and trickery for harlequins to avoid damage rather than something like EW which granted the phoenix lords have, however the really are eternal in the truest possible sense.... at the end of the day the solitaire is just an uber scary kick a** pointy eared alien space clown/mime thing ... (also I don't think he ever speaks .. is there a need for a tie in to the mimes ?) Finally I'm still thinking an up gunned (ID and/or ignores ward saves) rending, it would be not only be a characterful addition (just touching him is bad news.....) but would mean he would be dangerous to everything in some way I don't see why he can't be dangerous to MCs and vehicles, he needs to be 'actually' scary.

bear in mind he cant/shouldn't join squads and won't subsequently benefit from VoT. T 3 with at best a 4+ ward and three wounds coupled with TLOS means he is in for a tough time whatever, a tactical squad can drop him with one load of rapid fire... obviously if you pop in my re-roll successful shooting thing he 'can' survive it.

last two points for some reason I see fate/chance as something involved with the Harlequin theme I really think that the army would not only benefit from the availability of doom and fortune , I don't ever run harli's without them, so I don't see why an actual list of them should be 'less' effective, on the subject of psychic powers the harlequins have cloes ties/involvement with the farseers/guardians of the black library, I was wondering if instead of vet Shadow seers the higher level psycher for the list should perhaps be a black library farseer ? (how awesome ?)

and finally just wanted to throw this out there, there are masses of characters and even UNITS now with 3+ ward saves why would a domino field be only as good as an iron halo ? I thought the eldar were masters of hoopy field tech ? bear in mind a 4+ ward is less good on T3 as you will always be making more saves than a T4 model with the same.

Right I think that will do for now , lol

hope that provides you with some interesting food for thought. also would you consider putting a 'provisional' edition of the codex together incorporating my suggested changes ? it's one thing to theory things out but playing with it is another thing, I would feel more confident backing my suggestions up with some playtesting and it's nice to have a nice shiny codex to do it with, rekkon the guys at my regular group would be more receptive *wink*

needless to say I'll play a couple of games this week some with your current edition and I'll try a couple with my suggestions added in too.

over and out

M.

[Ambience 327]

Again, this is a lot to take in. I don't have time right now to reply to all of this new info, but rest assured is has already been read and is being assimilated.

Anyway, I doubt anything new will come out before the Easter weekend, as I'm taking the family down to visit with the in-laws tomorrow evening. I will see what I can do about updating the Codex again during the following week.

[djinn8]

OK, last thing before you think about updating I promise.

The list is too weak against vehicles. I'm goig to try it out against my IG, but I don't think it'll go down well for the Harlies. If I put a Demolisher in the IG list I'm not even sure they'd be able to kill it if the Marionette dies - not unless I tailored the list and even then the Harlies will have a hard time.

As a solution I'd like to put forward a piece of wargear that I've seen in the Tempus Fugitives Harlequin Codex called Harlequin Cards:

a model armed with Harlequin Cards may place them in the assault phase against models with an armour value in the same way as grenades. At the end of the assault phase, should a card be successfuly placed the unit equiped with the Harlequin Cards immediately moves 2D6" away from the combat and their opponent may not consolidate. Once the Harlequin has disengaged from the combat, roll a D6. On a 1-3 the card has no effect. On a 5-4 the target takes a glancing hit. On a roll of a 6 the target takes a penetrating hit.

Just something to think about.

Good luck with the update and have a nice weekend.

[kraken]

I have to disagree, i have been running fusion guns in my quin squads for a while (one example) in a recent game the last two quins from one squad immobilized and wep destroyed a dreadnought with rending , then withdrew in his turn within 3" of his crusader and in my turn took it out with the fusion guns in the last turn they shot and charged the dreadnought to finish it off.

also you can shoot a vehicle then assault the contents so another good reason to have the fusion guns.

My suggested changes to a vet DJ will help in the AT department ,brightlance with BS 5 and quick shot anyone ? then phase shift into hiding/cover *grin*

also the cards are more or less the same as haywire grenades ? rending allows quins to deal with any vehicle except AV14 all round,2 fusion pistols in each squad will do nicely ,the new fleeting marionette and the high BS bright lances should be able to cope. plus shooting fusion pistols from open topped vehicles is another option ?

[Ambience 327]

I've finally had some time to take a look at the changes you guys were suggesting, and I think I like quite a few of them. I don't have time to properly playtest the list right now myself (new baby on the way, due in a few weeks), but I wanted to get the changes implemented and thrown out there for you (and anyone else) to bite into and let me know how it goes.

Since this is an experimental revision, rather than one I've personally playtested, I'm not going to update the link in the 1st post. Also, I'm trying out a new host for the file (mediafire) which doesn't require membership to download the file. Let me know what you think of the new host as well if you are so inclined.

Click here to download Codex: Harlequins (Experimental Revision)!!!


Here are the notes on the new changes:


- Domino Field upgraded to a 3+ Invulnerable Save. Points cost increased slightly wherever it appears.


- Granted the Phase Field a 6" move during the assault phase if they are unengaged.


- Added the option for Shadowseers and Death Jesters back into the Harlequin Troupe.

- Added the option for Shadowseers to the Mime Troupe.


- Removed the line about Aspirants not benefiting from Conceal. Not sure what I was thinking there...


- Increased the Great Harlequin's WS to 7 and his A to 4. Raised his points a small bit to compensate. (Also fixed his Army List Entry to correctly state that he starts out with a close combat weapon, not a harlequin's kiss!)


- Changed the Dread Mask and Rictus Mask to something a little more potent and fun.


- Removed the option to have Independent, Elite Shadowseers.


- Added the option for Veteran Death Jesters to be given Domino Fields and Phase Shifters.


- The Solitaire has been boosted to WS 9, mainly to make him even harder to hit. Also added the new "Veil of Laughter" rule to protect him a bit from enemy shooting. He'll still drop like a fly if any concerted shooting effort is bent his way, but now he'll take a few more shots to bring down overall. His points value has been suitably increased to compensate.


- Granted the Solitaire the option of a new "Solitaire's kiss", which allows him to become extremely deadly against characters, monstrous creatures and vehicles. (Note that only To Wound rolls of 6 will inflict the D3 Wounds. I did this instead of Instant Death because it is more effective against "Eternal Warriors". Note that only the affected model suffers D3 Wounds, not the unit. This makes it only effective against multi-wound models, rather than making him that much more devastating to units made up of single-wound models.)


- Allowed the option of taking 2 Venoms for a single Fast Attack choice. That should help Harlequin armies Mech up a bit - if you keep your units small.


- Replaced the vehicle upgrade Holo Fields with the new Jigsaw Field, which grants a cover save based on movement. Venoms and Mockingbirds should be fairly robust now, provided you remember to keep them moving. (As Fast vehicles, they can easily move at Cruising Speed and remain effective, whilst gaining a 4+ Cover Save.)


- Added "Dance of Death" and "Fleet" to the Marionette.

[kraken]

Since this is an experimental revision, rather than one I've personally playtested, I'm not going to update the link in the 1st post. Also, I'm trying out a new host for the file (mediafire) which doesn't require membership to download the file. Let me know what you think of the new host as well if you are so inclined.

Click here to download Codex: Harlequins (Experimental Revision)!!!

Host seemed fine to me


Here are the notes on the new changes:


- Domino Field upgraded to a 3+ Invulnerable Save. Points cost increased slightly wherever it appears.

yup yup should be just fine now


- Granted the Phase Field a 6" move during the assault phase if they are unengaged.

you gotta play a vet jester with this, oh the potential lols...

- Increased the Great Harlequin's WS to 7 and his A to 4. Raised his points a small bit to compensate. (Also fixed his Army List Entry to correctly state that he starts out with a close combat weapon, not a harlequin's kiss!)

excellent smithers

- Changed the Dread Mask and Rictus Mask to something a little more potent and fun.

still don't get the use of the rictus mask particularly


- Removed the option to have Independent, Elite Shadowseers.


- Added the option for Veteran Death Jesters to be given Domino Fields and Phase Shifters.

Don't need domino fields ,they have stealth, which is fine, still think crack shot and quick shot would be good, at the very least crack shot given the 5th edition cover system ?


- The Solitaire has been boosted to WS 9, mainly to make him even harder to hit. Also added the new "Veil of Laughter" rule to protect him a bit from enemy shooting. He'll still drop like a fly if any concerted shooting effort is bent his way, but now he'll take a few more shots to bring down overall. His points value has been suitably increased to compensate.

Veil of laughter seems fine not sure the "no TL" etc stuff was needed just clutters up the rule and you can't re roll a re roll anyway so should work out fine without.

I really like the Solitaires kiss but to speed up gameplay why not just make it do two wounds flat instead of D3 seems a little more elegant ? always getting the extra D6 seems a bit much how about doubles his str against vehicles like a witch blade (see what I did there ) so str 8 on the charge and rending ?

looking forward to testing him out now, looks like bar a few final tweaks (on paper at least) he is going to 'feel' right, thats something really important for me especially with character design , GW often drop the ball here


- Allowed the option of taking 2 Venoms for a single Fast Attack choice. That should help Harlequin armies Mech up a bit - if you keep your units small.

- Replaced the vehicle upgrade Holo Fields with the new Jigsaw Field, which grants a cover save based on movement. Venoms and Mockingbirds should be fairly robust now, provided you remember to keep them moving. (As Fast vehicles, they can easily move at Cruising Speed and remain effective, whilst gaining a 4+ Cover Save.)

I think a potential 2+ cover is way too much for the jigsaw ,It should get nothing for being stationery so WITH star engines a possible 3+ seems fair ?

On a final note I really think Doom and fortune access will finish the list off nicely and allow for some interesting combo's and give some reliability when needed.

At least humor me and try it for a few games if it is not something you want to be part of the main list then at least do a special character 'Fate seer' and give him fortune, doom and divination (one power for each of the classic worlds three fates)

would you like to include maybe 2-3 special characters in the list ? would be a good exercise in game design even if you don't end up including them in the final 'print'

Hope that all made sense

Edit: I noticed you changed the Marionette, I like dance and fleet , very fluffy, but I cannot get behind the drop to T7, as there is only ONE of him, he is going to get hit with every str6 plus wep available plus st 4 spam can potentially hurt him too T7 is a real nerf.....

go on try rending on the weaver....you know you want to *grin*

[Ambience 327]

you gotta play a vet jester with this, oh the potential lols...

As a recovered Tau player, I miss my JSJ Battlesuits, so I'm actually really looking forward to trying this combo out. I think this is the ultimate fix for the glass cannon syndrome.

still don't get the use of the rictus mask particularly

That one was a suggestion by djinn8. I tossed it in to see what it might be capable of. Think it over a bit and see if you can come up with some uses for it. We'll let djinn8 share his ideas as well. If it isn't worth taking, I will see what else we might want to do with it.

Don't need domino fields ,they have stealth, which is fine, still think crack shot and quick shot would be good, at the very least crack shot given the 5th edition cover system ?

Don't take domino fields then. I figure we can give him two options to make him more secure depending on how the player wants to use him. I'm really not a fan of the Crack Shot/Fast Shot ideas though. Adding them seems to take something away from the DR Exarch in my mind, and I just don't think it is really necessary, given his high BS and the new JSJ ability. You'll just have to maneuver him well to minimize the effects of cover.

Veil of laughter seems fine not sure the "no TL" etc stuff was needed just clutters up the rule and you can't re roll a re roll anyway so should work out fine without.

Actually, the "no rerolling a reroll" is one of the reasons why the "no TL" rule exists. Think about this - if that part of the rule didn't exist, and a Baal Predator fires its Twin-Linked Assault Cannons at your Solitaire, and rolls a 1, 2, 5 and 6, the Harlequin player would force the 5 and 6 to be re-rolled, while the Blood Angels player would re-roll the 1 and 2 due to being Twin-Linked. I didn't want that situation cropping up, and the small change makes him even less vulnerable. So with the full rule in effect, the 1 and 2 would be misses with no re-rolls allowed, while the 5 and 6 would have to be re-rolled due to the Veil of Laughter.

I really like the Solitaires kiss but to speed up gameplay why not just make it do two wounds flat instead of D3 seems a little more elegant ? always getting the extra D6 seems a bit much how about doubles his str against vehicles like a witch blade (see what I did there ) so str 8 on the charge and rending?

Well, first off you would double Strength before adding +1, so it would be S7 on the charge. S7+D6+Rending (Average of 10-11, max of 16), or S4+2D6 (Average of 11, max of 16). I don't really see the difference here. I'd have to do a full run of the numbers to be sure, but I think we're talking very minor differences. I think this one just feels a bit less clunky.

looking forward to testing him out now, looks like bar a few final tweaks (on paper at least) he is going to 'feel' right, thats something really important for me especially with character design , GW often drop the ball here

And tweaking is what this is all about. I won't call this Codex "done" for quite some time. If there is still room for improvements, I'm willing to make them!

I think a potential 2+ cover is way too much for the jigsaw ,It should get nothing for being stationery so WITH star engines a possible 3+ seems fair?

It might be a bit over the top, but remember that you have to move 24" and use Star Engines during your turn to claim that much. I was going with the idea that it will protect even when stationary (like the Harlequins' holo-suits), but I can see an argument for making motion a requirement. This one I'll leave to playtesting, but feel free to drop it by 1 point in some of your games to see which one feels more "right".

On a final note I really think Doom and fortune access will finish the list off nicely and allow for some interesting combo's and give some reliability when needed.

I don't think I'll be adding those to the High Shadowseer. It just doesn't fit his character as I see it.

At least humor me and try it for a few games if it is not something you want to be part of the main list then at least do a special character 'Fate seer' and give him fortune, doom and divination (one power for each of the classic worlds three fates)

would you like to include maybe 2-3 special characters in the list ? would be a good exercise in game design even if you don't end up including them in the final 'print'

This, however, has caught my fancy. I just might be tempted to make a special character, called the "Weaver of Fates" or something, and theme him/her to be tied to Morai-heg in some way. I also like the "three fates" bit, a lot in fact. I'll get working on this character right away!

Edit: I noticed you changed the Marionette, I like dance and fleet , very fluffy, but I cannot get behind the drop to T7, as there is only ONE of him, he is going to get hit with every str6 plus wep available plus st 4 spam can potentially hurt him too T7 is a real nerf.....

I did change the Marionette, but all I did was add Dance of Death and Fleet. He's been T7 since his initial inception. Yes, he has a lower Toughness than a Wraithlord, but he also has a Holo-suit to grant him a save against AP1, AP2 and Power Weapons. If he seems way too fragile, I might consider upping it, but part of the idea was to make him fast but fragile like the other Harlequin units.

go on try rending on the weaver....you know you want to *grin*

Nope - not going to happen. I don't see it going that way, and, as I mentioned, I am trying to stay in-line with existing Eldar rules as much as possible. If they change, I will, but I don't think they will!

[kraken]

As a recovered Tau player, I miss my JSJ Battlesuits, so I'm actually really looking forward to trying this combo out. I think this is the ultimate fix for the glass cannon syndrome.

I completely agree , plus I feel it somehow fits the nature of the DJ/harlequins, cheeky and deadly

That one was a suggestion by djinn8. I tossed it in to see what it might be capable of. Think it over a bit and see if you can come up with some uses for it. We'll let djinn8 share his ideas as well. If it isn't worth taking, I will see what else we might want to do with it.

I'm up for trying to cook up an alternative, as I would always use hit and run in their turn for obvious reasons , renders that mask pretty much useless


Don't take domino fields then. I figure we can give him two options to make him more secure depending on how the player wants to use him. I'm really not a fan of the Crack Shot/Fast Shot ideas though. Adding them seems to take something away from the DR Exarch in my mind, and I just don't think it is really necessary, given his high BS and the new JSJ ability. You'll just have to maneuver him well to minimize the effects of cover.

The DR exarch will loose nothing , bear in mind the fire dragon Ex has it too, I would argue that as it is already on more than one model and only a 5pt (?) upgrade I suggested it because it fits the character and helps his one shot per turn guns not be nullified 50% of the time due to the new cover system also how annoying is it when you whiff your wounds ? would also help make the VDJ consistent and reliable, as the list has very little long ranged heavy support I feel this is important,I also feel that domino field takes a little too much 'glass' away from the glass hammer. just my 2p ,tis your codex after all


Actually, the "no rerolling a reroll" is one of the reasons why the "no TL" rule exists. Think about this - if that part of the rule didn't exist, and a Baal Predator fires its Twin-Linked Assault Cannons at your Solitaire, and rolls a 1, 2, 5 and 6, the Harlequin player would force the 5 and 6 to be re-rolled, while the Blood Angels player would re-roll the 1 and 2 due to being Twin-Linked. I didn't want that situation cropping up, and the small change makes him even less vulnerable. So with the full rule in effect, the 1 and 2 would be misses with no re-rolls allowed, while the 5 and 6 would have to be re-rolled due to the Veil of Laughter.

I guess, is it possible to make the rule less wordy ? like,

Veil of laughter: enemies must re roll all successful ranged rolls to hit and cannot re roll failed 'to-hit' rolls for any reason.


Well, first off you would double Strength before adding +1, so it would be S7 on the charge. S7+D6+Rending (Average of 10-11, max of 16), or S4+2D6 (Average of 11, max of 16). I don't really see the difference here. I'd have to do a full run of the numbers to be sure, but I think we're talking very minor differences. I think this one just feels a bit less clunky.

Thought it was 8 because the Solitaires kiss gives +1 and so does furious charge ? also all harlequins with kisses have rending so it keeps continuity with the army theme , also his ability to penetrate drops off after charging ?

(random idea) Solitaires kiss: power weapon, rending*

* inflicts not one but 2 wounds on successful rending hits, successful 'rending' hits also ignore Invulnerable saves or add +1 on the vehicle damage chart ?

seems tidy enough to me ? also removes excess dice rolling


And tweaking is what this is all about. I won't call this Codex "done" for quite some time. If there is still room for improvements, I'm willing to make them!

It might be a bit over the top, but remember that you have to move 24" and use Star Engines during your turn to claim that much. I was going with the idea that it will protect even when stationary (like the Harlequins' holo-suits), but I can see an argument for making motion a requirement. This one I'll leave to playtesting, but feel free to drop it by 1 point in some of your games to see which one feels more "right".

2+ is horrendously high , bikes and stuff get a three plus so there is a game precedent for something small and fast to get a cover save that high, 3+ will be suitably amazing without being broken, especially if you run more than two vehicles, and I really liked it needing motion to gain the save, kinda spoils it a little if they just have it all the time.



I don't think I'll be adding those to the High Shadowseer. It just doesn't fit his character as I see it.


This, however, has caught my fancy. I just might be tempted to make a special character, called the "Weaver of Fates" or something, and theme him/her to be tied to Morai-heg in some way. I also like the "three fates" bit, a lot in fact. I'll get working on this character right away!

woot !


I did change the Marionette, but all I did was add Dance of Death and Fleet. He's been T7 since his initial inception. Yes, he has a lower Toughness than a Wraithlord, but he also has a Holo-suit to grant him a save against AP1, AP2 and Power Weapons. If he seems way too fragile, I might consider upping it, but part of the idea was to make him fast but fragile like the other Harlequin units.

My WLords get shot off the board an awful lot and with terrible ease, fleet would make little difference to that and I usually have them in cover if possible, If you could have more than one marionette I would be ok with T7 but t8 with three wounds is actually really quite fragile these days, not to mention the marionette lacks any firepower to speak of so that extra point of T might actually help it make combat, I'm deadly serious , I had two wraithlords in cover shot from the table in my opponents first turn today


Nope - not going to happen. I don't see it going that way, and, as I mentioned, I am trying to stay in-line with existing Eldar rules as much as possible. If they change, I will, but I don't think they will!

Fair enough ,was worth mentioning

So It continues, any ideas for other characters ? Maybe the laughing god can make a cameo ? and tying him into fate/chance should be easy given the fluff the whole thing with solitaires souls/slaanesh for one, plus he was the only god to survive the fall ?

[Ambience 327]

I'm up for trying to cook up an alternative, as I would always use hit and run in their turn for obvious reasons , renders that mask pretty much useless

Let's see what you've got. (FYI, I've finally gotten my hands on the BA Codex, so I'll be looking at their masks and seeing what we can do to one-up them here...)

The DR exarch will loose nothing , bear in mind the fire dragon Ex has it too, I would argue that as it is already on more than one model and only a 5pt (?) upgrade I suggested it because it fits the character and helps his one shot per turn guns not be nullified 50% of the time due to the new cover system also how annoying is it when you whiff your wounds ? would also help make the VDJ consistent and reliable, as the list has very little long ranged heavy support I feel this is important,I also feel that domino field takes a little too much 'glass' away from the glass hammer.

I'd really like to see how he fairs right now with his current stats and abilities before I go deciding he needs Crack/Fast Shot. Give me some practical experience and we'll talk on this again. On the note of the Domino Field, I figure if the Vet DJ is high enough in status to requisition a Phase Shifter, he should also have access to the Domino Field. I may make it so that he can only take the Domino Field OR the Phase Shifter, that way the player will have to make a choice - give him a rock-hard 3+ Inv, or let him JSJ. What do you think?

just my 2p ,tis your codex after all

True, but I place a high value on honest and constructive feedback, which you are providing in vast quantities. PLEASE keep it coming!

I guess, is it possible to make the rule less wordy ? like,

Veil of laughter: enemies must re roll all successful ranged rolls to hit and cannot re roll failed 'to-hit' rolls for any reason.

Maybe it is a bit verbose. I'll look at shortening it a bit in the next revision.

Thought it was 8 because the Solitaires kiss gives +1 and so does furious charge ? also all harlequins with kisses have rending so it keeps continuity with the army theme, also his ability to penetrate drops off after charging ?

(random idea) Solitaires kiss: power weapon, rending*

* inflicts not one but 2 wounds on successful rending hits, successful 'rending' hits also ignore Invulnerable saves or add +1 on the vehicle damage chart ?

seems tidy enough to me ? also removes excess dice rolling

You know, one of these days I'll learn to read my own rules before I go posting like a *****. So yeah, S8 or S5 on the charge, depending on which way we go. Either way, the numbers are basically the same with either rule set. I'll think about it, and maybe go your way - mainly due to the underlined part above - which I hadn't considered and which is a better argument than any I can come up with for the other method.

2+ is horrendously high , bikes and stuff get a three plus so there is a game precedent for something small and fast to get a cover save that high, 3+ will be suitably amazing without being broken, especially if you run more than two vehicles, and I really liked it needing motion to gain the save, kinda spoils it a little if they just have it all the time.

I am thinking more and more that you are right on this one. This will probably change in the next revision.

My WLords get shot off the board an awful lot and with terrible ease, fleet would make little difference to that and I usually have them in cover if possible, If you could have more than one marionette I would be ok with T7 but t8 with three wounds is actually really quite fragile these days, not to mention the marionette lacks any firepower to speak of so that extra point of T might actually help it make combat, I'm deadly serious , I had two wraithlords in cover shot from the table in my opponents first turn today

But he's supposed to be fragile. It's all a part of being a Harlequin! My idea here is that you will have to present your enemy with other targets that make the Marionette seem less juicy. Consider this one under advisement.

I've also thought about giving him "Scout" to help him get into combat quicker (and let him Outflank if he wants). I think it fits with his character. What do you think?

So It continues, any ideas for other characters ? Maybe the laughing god can make a cameo ? and tying him into fate/chance should be easy given the fluff the whole thing with solitaires souls/slaanesh for one, plus he was the only god to survive the fall ?

I don't have any thoughts for other special characters yet - but I think I want to avoid the Laughing god himself. I don't want anything like an Avatar of Cegorach floating around, and a true manifestation of the god himself would probably be too much like a C'Tan for my tastes. I like him better as part of the background.

I do, however, have a rough draft of the "Weaver of Fates" I mentioned above. Take a look and let me know what you think of her thus far (note that I decided to make her a non-Harlequin - i.e. no Dance of Death or Holo-suit or Veil of Tears going on - she is more like a Farseer, just a bit better at the twisting of fate type stuff.)



Laché-sis Angaufaresh - The Weaver of Fates

Whispered in legend on the Craftworlds of the Eldar are tales of a strange figure who travels the Webway in the company of the Harlequins, but is yet stranger and more aloof than their unusual kind. She is Laché-sis, the Weaver of Fates, and it is said that she alone knows the ultimate destiny of every creature, mortal and immortal alike.

Those few who claim to have seen her say that she wears a small skin rune pouch on her belt, and the most learned among them claim that it once belonged to Morai-heg, the Eldar goddess of fate and souls. Whether this is mere superstition or if it has some basis in the truth is not clearly understood. What is known, however, is that Laché-sis seems to have some power over the destiny of any individual who falls beneath her piercing gaze.

Laché-sis
WS 5
BS 5
S 3
T 3
W 2
I 6
A 2
Ld 10
Sv -

Unit Composition: Laché-sis (Unique)

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Shuriken Pistol
Blade of Ordination
Rune Armour
Skin Rune Pouch

Special Rules: Divination
Fleet of Foot
Independent Character
Psyker
Weaver of Fates

Psychic Powers: These powers work as described in the psychic powers section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, are used at the start of the Harlequin turn and do not require Laché-sis to have line of sight to target. Laché-sis knows the following psychic powers:


Doom: Laché-sis searches for the thread of destiny that spells the destruction of an enemy and draws it into being. AS CODEX: ELDAR (see Farseer)

Fortune: Laché-sis scries the strands of the future to forsee where the enemy will attack, warning those nearby so that they may avoid enemy fire. AS CODEX ELDAR (see Farseer)

Predestination: Laché-sis draws deep into her knowledge of the fates in order to best guide her followers to the greatest victory possible. Nominate one Harlequin unit with a model within 6" of Laché-sis. This unit gains 2D6 re-rolls that it may use for any dice rolls made by the unit (i.e. to hit rolls, to wound rolls, saves, etc), or that directly affect the unit (enemy to hit rolls, to wound rolls, psychic tests, etc). Any unused re-rolls are lost at the start of the next Harlequin turn.



Blade of Ordination: The Blade of Ordination counts as a normal close combat weapon. In addition, it allows Laché-sis to re-roll all failed to hit rolls and to wound rolls, and her opponents must re-roll all successful armour saves and invulnerable saves for wounds inflicted by the Blade of Ordination.

Skin Rune Pouch: This is said to be the very pouch that once belonged to the Eldar goddess Morai-heg, and legend tells that the fate of all creatures is held within. Once per battle, at the end of the Harlequin player's shooting phase, Laché-sis may open the pouch, revealing to those around her their ultimate fates. All units within 12", friend or foe, (but not Laché-sis or any unit she has joined) must immediately take a Morale Test. Enemy units must take this test on 3D6 due to the sudden shock of such a revelation. If the test is failed, the unit immediately begins falling back. If the test is passed, the unit gains the Stubborn Universal Special Rule for the remainder of the game. Fearless units, and units otherwise immune to Morale Tests are unnaffected by the Skin Rune Pouch.


Divination: Laché-sis has powers of precognition and prophecy as great as any among the Eldar race. AS CODEX ELDAR (see Eldrad)

Weaver of Fates: Laché-sis is a master of manipulating the mystical energies of the Warp to influence the fates of those around her, more so than even the most powerful Farseers of the Craftworlds. She may use two of her psychic powers each turn, but may not use the same psychic power twice in the same turn. Alternatively, she may use all three of her psychic powers in a turn, but if she does so, she may not Move, Shoot, Run or Assault during that turn.



I haven't gone so far as determining a points value for her yet - but I am sure it won't be low! Also, I'm concerned that the Skin Rune Pouch might be just a tad overpowered, but I'm afraid if I lower the range, or eliminate the 3D6 bit, it might be a bit underwhelming. I really want the Stubborn aspect as this represents the unit becoming inured to fear by knowing their fate as you might imagine would happen if they pass that Morale test right off the bat. (Fleeing and then rallying would simply represent them getting over it, if you get my meaning.)

[kraken]

Let's see what you've got. (FYI, I've finally gotten my hands on the BA Codex, so I'll be looking at their masks and seeing what we can do to one-up them here...)

goody gumdrops


I'd really like to see how he fairs right now with his current stats and abilities before I go deciding he needs Crack/Fast Shot. Give me some practical experience and we'll talk on this again. On the note of the Domino Field, I figure if the Vet DJ is high enough in status to requisition a Phase Shifter, he should also have access to the Domino Field. I may make it so that he can only take the Domino Field OR the Phase Shifter, that way the player will have to make a choice - give him a rock-hard 3+ Inv, or let him JSJ. What do you think?

yes I think either / or is a compromise, personally I can see myself always taking the PS (for the lolz)


True, but I place a high value on honest and constructive feedback, which you are providing in vast quantities. PLEASE keep it coming!

how selfless of me


Maybe it is a bit verbose. I'll look at shortening it a bit in the next revision.

yup yup , think that would be good


You know, one of these days I'll learn to read my own rules before I go posting like a *****. So yeah, S8 or S5 on the charge, depending on which way we go. Either way, the numbers are basically the same with either rule set. I'll think about it, and maybe go your way - mainly due to the underlined part above - which I hadn't considered and which is a better argument than any I can come up with for the other method.

The more I look at the version of the Solitaires kiss I posted the more I like it , won't say take it for definite until I get a chance to try it out, possibly tomorrow.


I am thinking more and more that you are right on this one. This will probably change in the next revision.

I think it is best, for a list to be credible we need to make pains to capture the feel without making things too imbalanced and OP , I think keying the save to the speed and a potential 3+ ward is pretty much bang on, given the previous statement.


But he's supposed to be fragile. It's all a part of being a Harlequin! My idea here is that you will have to present your enemy with other targets that make the Marionette seem less juicy. Consider this one under advisement.

I've also thought about giving him "Scout" to help him get into combat quicker (and let him Outflank if he wants). I think it fits with his character. What do you think?

Maybe the scout move would be good , not sure about outflanking, the scout move would make him quite quick , especially compared to a normal WL, if you insist on keeping him T7 wold you consider a rule that adds +1 to his Holo save if he opts to run ? (so sacrificing shooting to gain extra speed in order to more effectively utilize the benefits of holo tech ? (apocolypse eldar titan holos only require 'that you move' to gain a 4+ cover/inv)

I don't have any thoughts for other special characters yet - but I think I want to avoid the Laughing god himself. I don't want anything like an Avatar of Cegorach floating around, and a true manifestation of the god himself would probably be too much like a C'Tan for my tastes. I like him better as part of the background.

I do, however, have a rough draft of the "Weaver of Fates" I mentioned above. Take a look and let me know what you think of her thus far (note that I decided to make her a non-Harlequin - i.e. no Dance of Death or Holo-suit or Veil of Tears going on - she is more like a Farseer, just a bit better at the twisting of fate type stuff.)



Laché-sis Angaufaresh - The Weaver of Fates

Whispered in legend on the Craftworlds of the Eldar are tales of a strange figure who travels the Webway in the company of the Harlequins, but is yet stranger and more aloof than their unusual kind. She is Laché-sis, the Weaver of Fates, and it is said that she alone knows the ultimate destiny of every creature, mortal and immortal alike.

Those few who claim to have seen her say that she wears a small skin rune pouch on her belt, and the most learned among them claim that it once belonged to Morai-heg, the Eldar goddess of fate and souls. Whether this is mere superstition or if it has some basis in the truth is not clearly understood. What is known, however, is that Laché-sis seems to have some power over the destiny of any individual who falls beneath her piercing gaze.

Yeah the fluff be good , love the Morai heg tie in , about time an eldar list had something like this , wicked

Laché-sis
WS 5
BS 5
S 3
T 3
W 2
I 6
A 2
Ld 10
Sv -

Unit Composition: Laché-sis (Unique)

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Shuriken Pistol
Blade of Ordination
Rune Armour
Skin Rune Pouch

Special Rules: Divination
Fleet of Foot
Independent Character
Psyker
Weaver of Fates

Psychic Powers: These powers work as described in the psychic powers section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, are used at the start of the Harlequin turn and do not require Laché-sis to have line of sight to target. Laché-sis knows the following psychic powers:


Doom: Laché-sis searches for the thread of destiny that spells the destruction of an enemy and draws it into being. AS CODEX: ELDAR (see Farseer)

Fortune: Laché-sis scries the strands of the future to forsee where the enemy will attack, warning those nearby so that they may avoid enemy fire. AS CODEX ELDAR (see Farseer)

Predestination: Laché-sis draws deep into her knowledge of the fates in order to best guide her followers to the greatest victory possible. Nominate one Harlequin unit with a model within 6" of Laché-sis. This unit gains 2D6 re-rolls that it may use for any dice rolls made by the unit (i.e. to hit rolls, to wound rolls, saves, etc), or that directly affect the unit (enemy to hit rolls, to wound rolls, psychic tests, etc). Any unused re-rolls are lost at the start of the next Harlequin turn.

I get the idea but very clunky , I would suggest allowing them to choose one of the following, re roll missed hits (ranged and CC) OR enemy re-roll successful hits , I would prefer something like this and can already see potential uses for it

These three powers will give her incredible synergy with the list, I'm 100% behind this.


Blade of Ordination: The Blade of Ordination counts as a normal close combat weapon. In addition, it allows Laché-sis to re-roll all failed to hit rolls and to wound rolls, and her opponents must re-roll all successful armour saves and invulnerable saves for wounds inflicted by the Blade of Ordination.

I like it but I think it should be 'fatal' maybe cause ID or be used as a force weapon ?

Skin Rune Pouch: This is said to be the very pouch that once belonged to the Eldar goddess Morai-heg, and legend tells that the fate of all creatures is held within. Once per battle, at the end of the Harlequin player's shooting phase, Laché-sis may open the pouch, revealing to those around her their ultimate fates. All units within 12", friend or foe, (but not Laché-sis or any unit she has joined) must immediately take a Morale Test. Enemy units must take this test on 3D6 due to the sudden shock of such a revelation. If the test is failed, the unit immediately begins falling back. If the test is passed, the unit gains the Stubborn Universal Special Rule for the remainder of the game. Fearless units, and units otherwise immune to Morale Tests are unnaffected by the Skin Rune Pouch.

Err its ok I think, just trying to work out how much use this is tactically, or if I would be inclined to use it , maybe she could use it to once per game 'divine' an enemies true weakness/fate, and have an effect similar to Dante's mask ? on one enemy model (on the condition that it is 'alive'?)


Divination: Laché-sis has powers of precognition and prophecy as great as any among the Eldar race. AS CODEX ELDAR (see Eldrad)

definitely should have this

Weaver of Fates: Laché-sis is a master of manipulating the mystical energies of the Warp to influence the fates of those around her, more so than even the most powerful Farseers of the Craftworlds. She may use two of her psychic powers each turn, but may not use the same psychic power twice in the same turn. Alternatively, she may use all three of her psychic powers in a turn, but if she does so, she may not Move, Shoot, Run or Assault during that turn.



I haven't gone so far as determining a points value for her yet - but I am sure it won't be low! Also, I'm concerned that the Skin Rune Pouch might be just a tad overpowered, but I'm afraid if I lower the range, or eliminate the 3D6 bit, it might be a bit underwhelming. I really want the Stubborn aspect as this represents the unit becoming inured to fear by knowing their fate as you might imagine would happen if they pass that Morale test right off the bat. (Fleeing and then rallying would simply represent them getting over it, if you get my meaning.)

Well thats it for now , I'll go away and think a bit, try and get some proxy test games going with my mates or down ze club...

[Ambience 327]

Maybe the scout move would be good , not sure about outflanking, the scout move would make him quite quick , especially compared to a normal WL,

Well, the ability to Outflank is a result of having the Scout rule. Not saying it would be the best idea for him to do, but I don't think I want to give him Scout but preclude Outflank.

if you insist on keeping him T7 wold you consider a rule that adds +1 to his Holo save if he opts to run ? (so sacrificing shooting to gain extra speed in order to more effectively utilize the benefits of holo tech ? (apocolypse eldar titan holos only require 'that you move' to gain a 4+ cover/inv)

His holo-suit is thus far identical to the one worn by the Harlequins, and they don't get a bonus for running, so I don't think I want to go that route. Like I said, if he proves too fragile, I'll think about upping his Toughness to 8, but for now lets see how he plays with T7 and the 5+ Invulnerable. (And Scout...see below!)

I get the idea but very clunky , I would suggest allowing them to choose one of the following, re roll missed hits (ranged and CC) OR enemy re-roll successful hits , I would prefer something like this and can already see potential uses for it

I don't think it is really all that clunky. It isn't any more clunky than the Tau Markerlight rules, which allow you to do all kinds of interesting things. Since it can only be cast once each turn, but a special character, I think a tiny bit of bookkeeping (i.e. keeping track of how many re-rolls you have left) would be easy enough, and since they can be used for just about anything, it won't be hard to figure out when/where to use them. I have a very similar power available to my Exodites, and it has proved to be useful and not much fuss in my playtesting thus far.

I like it but I think it should be 'fatal' maybe cause ID or be used as a force weapon ?

What I was going for here with the Weaver of Fates was to make a character who really stands out among the Harlequin army. Where the Great Harlequin and the Solitaire are very powerful close-combat fighters, and the Harlequins themselves are quite adept up-close as well, I wanted her to be fairly tame in that realm, but still able to put a few wounds on the enemy. Basically, you take her for her psychic powers, not her ability to kill the enemy.

While the Blade of Ordination only hits at S3 and allows armour saves, it does have the rather interesting effect of re-rolling all failed to-hit and to-wound rolls, and forcing the enemy to re-roll all successfull saves. Those re-rolls make it much more likely for her to get hits, score wounds and for the enemy to fail saves. Fate is on her side, even if her weapon isn't an uber-killy power weapon that causes instant death.

Err its ok I think, just trying to work out how much use this is tactically, or if I would be inclined to use it , maybe she could use it to once per game 'divine' an enemies true weakness/fate, and have an effect similar to Dante's mask ? on one enemy model (on the condition that it is 'alive'?)

Hmmm...dooming a single model instead of showing everyone their doom... I'll think about it, but I was really getting into the current ability. Just think about the idea of giving one of your Harlequin Troupes the Stubborn rule when they pass their morale test due to their Leadership of 10 and their lovely Predestination re-roll. Your opponents are much less likely to pass, as they take their test on 3D6. This is especially true for lower-leadership units. (The average roll on 3D6 is around 10 to 11, so most units will fail on an average roll!)

Well thats it for now , I'll go away and think a bit, try and get some proxy test games going with my mates or down ze club...

Again, thanks for all of your input, and I look forward to hearing about any gaming experience with the list. Just make sure you use the latest revision! I have uploaded a new version of the Experimental Codex with the following changes:


- Fixed the Shadowseer in the Harlequin Troupe and Mime Troupe, giving them Hallucinogen Grenades they should have had previously. (An oversight when putting them back into units.)


- Limited the Veteran Death Jester to carrying either a Domino Field or a Phase Shifter, but not both.


- Cleaned up the overly-verbose "Veil of Laughter" rule to be just a tad shorter.


- Altered the Solitaire's kiss to be a bit more in-line with the normal Harlequin's kiss, but still highly effective against characters, monsters and vehicles.


- Reduced the potential save of the Jigsaw Field to be null when stationary, and 3+ at best.


- Added "Scout" USR to the Marionette. This should allow him to either get to grips with his foe that much faster, or else Outflank and be protected for the first turn or two while you move your other forces into position.

[djinn8]

Howdy.

Thought I'd clarify my ideas for the Rictus Mask. The idea came to me when I'd charged into a combat with nurgle marked chaos marines but hadn't killed enough in my turn for the unit to be safe in the next. With the next round of combat being a very costly one (or possibly a fatal one) it would have been nice to be able to hit and run out of it, but that would have meant the even worse option of being gunned down. The Rictus as I suggested would at least allow a chance to pull out before it all went south. 15 points might be a bit much for it though as the Dread Mask IS the better option.

I'd also like to convince you to make the Night Weaver rending. You say you have Blood Angels codex now, well go in and take a look at one of the Dread Weapons you can take. I can't remember what it's called now, but the stat line is S6, Template, Assault 2, Rending. And to top it off its a free upgrade (though it does replace something). Seriously you're worrying to much about whether the Night Weaver will be too powerful, but if it really bothers you drop it down to S5. Also perhaps instead of giving the Marrionette Scout, you could save that for its Mime Special character version? Some sort of Living Statue? Give it Infiltrate as well as Scout and a Domino Field to boot. Of course having a unique Marionette wouldn't make sense if ALL Marionettes are unique (0-1) so you'd have to remove the FOC restriction on them. Just a thought.

On the Veil of laughter and twin-linked issue, both should be ignored. Commissar Yarrik has a similer rule to the Veil but for wounding. I discussed this in the rules forum some time ago and the general concensus was that both sides of the equation cancel each other out. I can't see why this would be true for Yarrik but not the Solitair. Just another reason why he should have Eternal Warrior instead. But I won't go into that again if you've already made your mind up.

The Harlequin Kiss is also too powerful as well. I know that anyone I play using the rules as they are written here will throw a fit when I tell them that he can have up to 15 S5 Invnerable rending power weapon attacks on a character that his vehicles like a monstrous creature. Then they'll slap me when I tell them it cost 5 points. It must be a typo that the Kiss costs half what it does to arm him with a power weapon. I think he just needs to have the options to take a power weapon to kill troops and make the Kiss an invunerable ignoring rending weapon for characters and elite troops.

[Col. Tartleton]

You need a big nasty heavily armed and armored skimmer transport called a "Land Raider" for laughs.

[kraken]

Howdy.

Thought I'd clarify my ideas for the Rictus Mask. The idea came to me when I'd charged into a combat with nurgle marked chaos marines but hadn't killed enough in my turn for the unit to be safe in the next. With the next round of combat being a very costly one (or possibly a fatal one) it would have been nice to be able to hit and run out of it, but that would have meant the even worse option of being gunned down. The Rictus as I suggested would at least allow a chance to pull out before it all went south. 15 points might be a bit much for it though as the Dread Mask IS the better option.

The problem is the situation it may be useful in is so rare or circumstantial that no one will ever take it so it just becomes meaningless filler rather than a viable item that does something cool and unique to the point where you actually have to make a choice, at the moment this makes the other mask a non brainer....

I'd also like to convince you to make the Night Weaver rending. You say you have Blood Angels codex now, well go in and take a look at one of the Dread Weapons you can take. I can't remember what it's called now, but the stat line is S6, Template, Assault 2, Rending. And to top it off its a free upgrade (though it does replace something). Seriously you're worrying to much about whether the Night Weaver will be too powerful, but if it really bothers you drop it down to S5. Also perhaps instead of giving the Marrionette Scout, you could save that for its Mime Special character version? Some sort of Living Statue? Give it Infiltrate as well as Scout and a Domino Field to boot. Of course having a unique Marionette wouldn't make sense if ALL Marionettes are unique (0-1) so you'd have to remove the FOC restriction on them. Just a thought.

I agree on the rending , its not like it is an epic boost , will just make it a little better on light vehicles and slightly more reliable at killing MEQ as in theory you need six models under the template to get a rend...

On the Veil of laughter and twin-linked issue, both should be ignored. Commissar Yarrik has a similer rule to the Veil but for wounding. I discussed this in the rules forum some time ago and the general concensus was that both sides of the equation cancel each other out. I can't see why this would be true for Yarrik but not the Solitair. Just another reason why he should have Eternal Warrior instead. But I won't go into that again if you've already made your mind up.

If the game had to-hit modifiers this would be so easy to fix....
I think it is good that it gimps TL firing as too , i just felt that the rule was overly wordy

The Harlequin Kiss is also too powerful as well. I know that anyone I play using the rules as they are written here will throw a fit when I tell them that he can have up to 15 S5 Invnerable rending power weapon attacks on a character that his vehicles like a monstrous creature. Then they'll slap me when I tell them it cost 5 points. It must be a typo that the Kiss costs half what it does to arm him with a power weapon. I think he just needs to have the options to take a power weapon to kill troops and make the Kiss an invunerable ignoring rending weapon for characters and elite troops.

I did actually suggest this: Solitaires kiss: power weapon, rending*

* inflicts not one but 2 wounds on successful rending hits, successful 'rending' hits also ignore Invulnerable saves or add +1 on the vehicle damage chart ?

Still too much ? the points were to be worked out as far as I was aware, for 5 out of six wounding hits it's just a power weapon , if you have played with quins much you will know that having to rely on a bunch of sixes showing up when you need them can go horribly wrong.

again just my 2p

M.

[Ambience 327]

Howdy.

Greetings honored sir.

Thought I'd clarify my ideas for the Rictus Mask. The idea came to me when I'd charged into a combat with nurgle marked chaos marines but hadn't killed enough in my turn for the unit to be safe in the next. With the next round of combat being a very costly one (or possibly a fatal one) it would have been nice to be able to hit and run out of it, but that would have meant the even worse option of being gunned down. The Rictus as I suggested would at least allow a chance to pull out before it all went south. 15 points might be a bit much for it though as the Dread Mask IS the better option.

Yeah, I can see where you were going with it. Like Kraken said though, I'm thinking it is just too situational to be worthwhile. I'm open to suggestions on what to replace it with now.

I'd also like to convince you to make the Night Weaver rending. You say you have Blood Angels codex now, well go in and take a look at one of the Dread Weapons you can take. I can't remember what it's called now, but the stat line is S6, Template, Assault 2, Rending. And to top it off its a free upgrade (though it does replace something). Seriously you're worrying to much about whether the Night Weaver will be too powerful, but if it really bothers you drop it down to S5. Also perhaps instead of giving the Marrionette Scout, you could save that for its Mime Special character version? Some sort of Living Statue? Give it Infiltrate as well as Scout and a Domino Field to boot. Of course having a unique Marionette wouldn't make sense if ALL Marionettes are unique (0-1) so you'd have to remove the FOC restriction on them. Just a thought.

I don't think I've said that I won't make it Rending due to Rending being too powerful of a rule for it. It won't be made Rending because the ranged monofilament weapons in Codex: Eldar are not Rending. If that changes in the future, so will my opinion. Consistency with the existing rules for the Eldar is important to me. I'm still up in the air about what other special characters to make, but for now I'm liking Scout on the Marionette. That opinion is subject to change however once I get some games in or someone else reports back with some practical experience.

As it stands though, a S6 Template Weapon has its place in killing things with a poor Armour Save who are hiding in cover. If you want to kill Marines more effectively, or open up vehicles, give him the Fusion Pistol option instead.

On the Veil of laughter and twin-linked issue, both should be ignored. Commissar Yarrik has a similer rule to the Veil but for wounding. I discussed this in the rules forum some time ago and the general concensus was that both sides of the equation cancel each other out. I can't see why this would be true for Yarrik but not the Solitair. Just another reason why he should have Eternal Warrior instead. But I won't go into that again if you've already made your mind up.

I really like Veil of Laughter as it stands. It makes a mockery of any attempt to shoot at him. (Figuratively anyway, pour enough fire into him and he'll still go down - just the odds are in his favor is all.)

The Harlequin Kiss is also too powerful as well. I know that anyone I play using the rules as they are written here will throw a fit when I tell them that he can have up to 15 S5 Invnerable rending power weapon attacks on a character that his vehicles like a monstrous creature. Then they'll slap me when I tell them it cost 5 points. It must be a typo that the Kiss costs half what it does to arm him with a power weapon. I think he just needs to have the options to take a power weapon to kill troops and make the Kiss an invunerable ignoring rending weapon for characters and elite troops.

I think you are confused. The Harlequin's kiss on the Solitaire is the same as any other Harlequin's kiss - a Rending weapon and nothing more. 5pts is the standard upgrade cost for it.

The Solitaire's Kiss, on the other hand, is both a Power Weapon and a Rending Weapon, adds +1 Strength (4, 5 on the charge) or +3 Strength against vehicles (6, 7 on the charge - for an average Penetration of 10-11 on the charge, and a maximum penetration of 17 with a perfect Rending roll) and ignores Invulnerable saves and does D3 Wounds whenever it Rends (still a 1 in 6 chance). It does not, however, cost a mere 5 pts. It costs 35 pts.

I also don't see where you are getting 15 attacks from. He has 3 base, + up to 6 for charging, +1 for two weapons - that equals a total of 10.

[djinn8]

I stand corrected. I think I was having a bit of a brain fart when I was reading the Solitaire rules. Also I think the reason I read the Kiss point cost wrong was because I assumed their wouldn't be the option to give him the Harlequin Kiss. If you're not willing to pay 5 points more to take the power weapon you really shouldn't be taking the Solitaire in the first place. Those points could be better spent on a Marionette. Which leads me to my second point:

The Marionette is a real no brainer choice over the Solitaire. The Solitaire doesn't fill any holes in the army (he just gives you more of what you've already got) but the Marionette fills a pretty big void (a tank killing, tar pitting, bullet sponge). That's why I'm against giving it scout as well. It's good enough already.

On the subject of the Rictus mask once more. It's not as useless as you might think. I use hit and run on the first turn of combat a fair bit with SoB Seraphim. Hit a unit then jump pack out of line of sight. Of course Harlequins don't have jump packs so this tactic won't work for them, but allowing the unit to cause pinning provides the same thing. The biggest problem as pointed out by Kraken and yourself is that the Dread Mask is the better option. Even if the Rictus cost less, you'd still want the Dread Mask. So the rule would need another location if it were to be included at all. The best place I can see for it would be as another "dance" upgrade. The problem still persists with the other dances being better, but there's more room for point reduction and its not the "either/or" choice that it is with the masks. That and the tactic is more viable, giving small squads the ability to stall units they would otherwise be unable to deal with. Still I don't know how you'd feel about that given the the names of the current dances, (its not Comedy, Tragedy & the other one after all). *sigh* Perhaps I'm just going nowhere with the idea.

[Ambience 327]

The Solitaire may not fill any holes, but he sure makes a lot of them...

Honestly though, he is capable of bringing down tanks, especially the lighter transport types with their 10 rear armour. I think one of his biggest roles, however, is to be the model you point at and say "See this guy? If he touches your lines, you are finished." He may not actually follow through on that threat, but his stats and rules certainly make it a believeable bluff if nothing else. The idea is to have him change the way your enemy plays, allowing you to set the pace and tone of the battle.


I wonder if changing the Hit & Run thing over to be the effect provided by Tanglefoot Grenades would be viable? Currently they are simply Defensive Grenades - but maybe they could have the "Pin on Hit & Run" rule instead. Of course, it would require a rejuggling of who can have them, and what they would cost, but it is worth considering.

[djinn8]

I'm going to play a game with the 'quins tomorrow evening. What units do you thing need testing over others?

[Ambience 327]

I really want to hear how the Death Jester Veteran fares with the new version of the Phase Shifter (i.e. the Tau-style Jump-Shoot-Jump).

Obviously the Solitaire needs to see some practical play to see if his Veil of Laughter and Solitaire's Kiss are over the top, underpowered, or just right.

I'd also like to know how the Jigsaw Field works out - it should make the Venoms quite a bit more survivable when using them aggressively. (i.e. a 4+ Cover save while still being able to shoot & drop off their passengers, or a 3+ Cover save when it really gets moving, should allow them to soak up a lot more fire before they crash and burn!)

And of course, the Marionette should have a go to see if Scout is just too much on top of granting him Dance of Death and Fleet.


I think those are the biggest testing needs right now.

Man, I wish I could get this kind of help on my Exodite Codex!